Pratik Suthar：印度 RSS 如何維持百年志工網絡？

0:00開場

0:00好，Pratik，歡迎。你其實參與了印度一個很大、歷史很長的組織，已經超過 100 年，也掌握了制度接班等等。要不要簡單介紹自己、你在建什麼？當然。All right, Pratik, so welcome. You actually are part of a very large, long-running organization in India that's been around for more than 100 years. You've mastered institutional succession and so on and so forth. Do you want to say a little bit about yourself and what you're building and so on? Sure.

0:21首先非常謝謝邀請，Balaji。如你所說，我參與的是一種以組織形式存在的運動，目標是從內部強化社群與社會。First of all, thank you so much for having me here, Balaji. As you rightly mentioned, I'm a part of a movement in the form of an organization which is trying to strengthen the community and society from within.

0:35以印度歷史來說還算年輕。我們才 100 歲，規模上也很「小」：從未對外募資來運作，完全自籌，所以組織裡「只有」1000 萬成員。Fairly young organization in Indian history. We are just 100 years old and very small in terms of we never raised any capital from outside to run the organization. It is completely self-funded, and hence we have only 10 million members in the organization.

0:53對，這是印度獨一無二的社會文化組織，也就是 RSS。已運作 100 年。你在 network state 常談 exit，我們相信的主要是：留在社群裡，怎麼強化個人？因為任何社會的基本單位是個人。So, yeah, I mean, it is a unique-of-its-kind socio-cultural organization, what RSS is in India. It has been working for the last 100 years. Every time, you know, the concept you say is of exit in Network State, what we believe is, primarily, being in the community, how can you strengthen the individual? Because the fundamental unit of any society is an individual.

1:19若你強化並改變那個個人，最終會變成強大的社群。這是我們在印度 100 年來在做的事。我們有每日聚會，我稱之為節點，89,000 個地點的每日節點。And if you strengthen and change that individual, it will eventually become the great community. And that's what we have been doing for the last 100 years in India. We've got our daily gatherings. We call it something like a node, daily nodes of 89,000 places.

1:3689,000 個地點，一塊場地、一小時，同一群人聚在一起，運動、做有意義的事，討論他們面對的社會挑戰、怎麼貢獻解決。主要是線下，當然現在也有很大一群線上的人加入。那 89,000 個據點，你怎麼讓人常常回來？So 89,000 places, one ground, one hour, same group of people coming together, playing, doing great stuff, discussing the societal challenges that they face and how they can contribute to solve that problem. So it is offline, but of course nowadays we have a very big group of online people joining the organization. So those 89,000 locations, how do you get people to come back frequently?

2:04連健身房都難讓人持續去。Starbucks 算是少數有某種「經常性收入」的地方，人會一直回來買咖啡，因為有點上癮，對吧？Because it's hard to get people to go back to the gym even. You know, Starbucks is one of the very few places that has recurring revenue, in a sense, where people keep coming back for coffee because they're quasi-addicted to it, right?

2:18那你們是靠儀式？社群？什麼？對。原因當然是整個社群有共同目的，類似你在 network state 想做的事。So how do you, you know—is it ritual? Is it community? What, you know? Yeah. So, so the reason is, of course, the whole community is purpose-driven, similar to what you are trying to do in network state.

2:30社會先於自我

2:30為什麼大家加入？因為我們說類似「社會先於自我」。我們想推的是：個人人生可以做得很好，你能為社會做什麼？Why everybody is joining? Because we say something like a society before self. What we are trying to promote is, you can do great stuff in your life as an individual. What can you do for the society?

2:41活動當然有趣。我們的人在印度各邦、各村落相當去中心化，做這套日常。他們主動 outreach、到人家裡、邀請來 shakha。So, of course, the activities are interesting. We have a network of people who are pretty much decentralized in every state and the villages of India, and they do this daily routine. So they reach out to the people, they go to the homes, they invite them to the shakha.

2:59我們這樣叫，字面意思是「分支」。這一小時的訓練，是讓他們在剩下 23 小時的日常生活裡為社會做好事。當然不容易。有一點是：這更像生產者社會，而不是消費者社會，因為去 Starbucks 你只是買東西。We call it; it literally means the branch. And then this one hour is something that they get a training of doing something good for the society in the rest of the 23 hours in their day-to-day. So it is, of course, you know, it's pretty much tough. One thing about that is it means it's a producer society more than a consumer society because, you know, if you're going to Starbucks, you're just buying something.

3:23來這種地方，你們是一起建造。沒錯。即使個人也有收穫，人會覺得是在一起建造，這很重要。當然。我們常說：你來這裡不會得到什麼，你有的可能還會失去。你是來回饋社會。But if you're coming to something like this, you're building something together. Exactly. That's what people feel, even if they get some individual value out of it. They feel they're building something together, which is an important piece. Absolutely. I mean, see, so what we say is, while you come here, you won't get anything. Whatever you have, you may lose it. So you come and give back to the society.

3:47核心信念是：印度有一種文明理解，每個生命都有神性，我們彼此相連。我們常說 Vasudhaiva Kutumbakam，世界是一個家庭。對我們不是口號，是信念。若看印度近 800 年，我們不斷被入侵。See, the primary belief is because India has one civilizational understanding that every being has a divinity, and we all are interconnected. So what we say in India, Vasudhaiva Kutumbakam, often we say that the world is one family. It's not a mere slogan for us. It is a conviction for us, and that we have kind of, because if you go to a bit of India's history, the recent past of 800 years, we were continuously invaded.

4:11跟其他社會一樣，這種處境下你會忘記歷史、文化裡偉大的東西，以及世上其他可學的。這個組織想強化社會：強化人，人會貢獻社會、國家與全球福祉。這是這個運動的主要目標，雖然它有組織結構。So of course, just like any, any, any other society, if this happens, you forget about your history, about your great things of culture and whatever is available around the world. So this organization is trying to strengthen the society. So you strengthen the people, people will contribute to the society, nation, and the global well-being. So that is the main aim of this movement, I would say, because it has a structure of an organization.

4:35若看規模，89,000 個每日節點，還有每週節點、每月聚會，活動非常多元。個人加入後，會到各自領域去貢獻。But if you look at the scale, you know, like 89,000 daily, there are weekly nodes, there are ... monthly meetups, the number of diverse activities. Now, once these individuals become the part of the organization, they go and contribute to their different fields.

4:50志工與地方自發

4:50我們說：來，為社會做點事。在你專業或領域做。在災難或社會面臨的任何挑戰處做。比如 COVID 我們有 34 萬志工……另外，COVID 比較像由上而下的，對吧？但你說任何社區挑戰，是每個人自己判斷嗎？So we say, come, do something for the society. Do something in your field or your expertise. Do something wherever you find the calamities or any challenges that society face. So be it, you know, in COVID, we had 340,000 volunteers, like— Also, on that, COVID is something which is like a top-down thing, right? But when you said just any challenge your community faces, does each person figure it out themselves?

5:15在地方上怎麼排優先順序？怎麼運作？對。我們基本上不用下命令說「你去做」。這是組織的美。我會說這是 network 的 OG：我們在日常流程裡內化的價值，確保有事發生時，不用告訴他們「對，你去這樣做」。Is it prioritized at the place level? How does that work? Yeah. So it is, we don't have to basically give a command that, okay, you do it. That's the beauty of the organization. This is an— OG of a network, I would say, you know, that this value which we inculcate in our day-to-day processes, that makes sure that anything happens, we don't have to tell them that, yes, you go and do this.

5:37例如最近若你有聽說，Air India 從 Ahmedabad、Gujarat 飛倫敦的空難。政府官員趕到幫忙之前，RSS 志工就已經在現場協助。這是我們日常學習裡想教的。For example, the recent incident, if you have heard, there was an air crash in Ahmedabad, Gujarat, of Air India going to London. You know, there were like instances that before the government officials reached to help, the volunteers of RSS were reaching and helping, you know, that situation. So this is what we try to teach, you know, in our day-to-day learning.

5:58有趣、好玩、有成就感。一小時的給予，這就是我們做的。這有點矛盾，你可能會覺得印度雖然崛起很快，但還不是富裕社會。所以……So it is interesting, it is fun, it is fulfilling. It's one hour of giving. That's what we do. So, you know, it's paradoxical because you would think of India as, I mean, it's rising very quickly, but it's not yet a wealthy society. So...

6:14怎麼會有這麼多時間做所謂志工，還是根本不這樣概念化？嗯，也許是社會的文明理解。印度當然是崛起中的經濟，GDP 成長很快，在科技、半導體製造上的進展令人驚嘆。但，我覺得……How is there so much time budget for, call it volunteer work, or is it not conceptualized that way? Well, it is maybe a civilizational understanding that the society has. Of course, India is emerging, you know, economy, fastest GDP. What India is doing in terms of the tech, semiconductor manufacturing, just amazing. And, but yes, I think.

6:38我覺得世界面臨的工作與生活平衡挑戰……嗯，不完全是工作與生活的平衡。更像是：若人們經濟上還在往上爬，這種組織會占不少時間。對。But yes, I think that what the challenge that world is facing of work-life balance, you know? I think the— Well, not work-life balance exactly. It's more that if, you know, if people are still rising economically, something like this organization, it takes a fair amount of their time. Yeah.

6:55那可能是本來拿來工作、專心工作，或下班後放鬆的時間。但還是有很多人願意簽名去做事。例如有人朝九晚五很辛苦，還去志工幫空難，別誤會，這很值得尊敬、很好。And that's time that they might normally spend at work or focusing on work or just relaxing after a hard day at work and so on. So... You know, but yet you still find a lot of people signing up to do things. You know, for example, somebody who's got a hard, you know, nine-to-five, for them to then go and volunteer to help with a plane crash or something like that is, don't get me wrong, it's honorable and it's good.

7:20鄰里榜樣與分支

7:20在仍貧困或仍在崛起的國家，能動員到這種志工程度，有點意外。我覺得 shakha 這套流程像去健身房或吃午餐。It's a little surprising that a poor country or still-rising country can get that level of volunteer, you know. You know, because interestingly, what I feel is this process of shakha is something like going to the gym or having a lunch.

7:33再忙你也會去健身房。這是在強化內在。不代表來這一小時就放棄工作。你來強化自己，所以……它變成日常的一部分。However busy you are, you will go to the gym. This is something which is strengthening your inner self. It doesn't mean that you come to the one hour and then, you know, you give up your work. You come, strengthen yourself, and then that's why I was saying that, you know— So, it becomes part of your routine.

7:48沒錯。那會幫助你的日常生活。因為你會遇到很好的人，得到心理穩定，有事可做，向環境學習。我覺得我們做過很獨特的事，舉個有趣的例子：若我迷健身，我會看 Cristiano Ronaldo 多壯。Exactly. And that helps your day-to-day life. That helps because, you know, you meet with the great people. You get that mental stability, you know, something to do, learn from the surroundings. What unique thing I think what we have done, I feel, you know, I'll just give this funny example. If, you know, I am, let's say, a fitness freak, I'll just look at Cristiano Ronaldo, you know, that look how fit he is.

8:09他體脂只有 8%，我該像他一樣。但第二個念頭是：不，他是足球 OG，我沒辦法像他那樣，我只是鄰里普通的人。但若隔壁鄰居去健身房、身材很好，我會想？You know, he just got like 8% of fat, and I should be like him. But what the second thought come in mind is, "Well, no, look, he is kind of an OG of football." I mean, he is one of them. I can't be like him. I'm just a normal human being living in my neighborhood. But if next to me, my neighbor goes to gym and he is fit, he is in a good shape, what I'll think?

8:28喔，他能去、他能做，我也能。差別在哪？榜樣離我太遠，我無法產生共鳴。我們在印度百年歷史裡做的，是把榜樣放到鄰里。Oh, if he goes there, he do that, I can do that. So what was the difference? The role model was very far from me, so I was not able to relate that. So I think what we have done in the hundred years of history in India, we have made these role models available in our neighborhoods.

8:43所以去 shakha 不會覺得跟工作衝突，因為我們遇到同路人，一起做好玩的事，連聚在一起本身也是。我們有很多對科技有興趣的群體，Bangalore 有很多 initiative，一起建體驗中心、科學中心、文化中心。So while going to the shakha, we don't really find the conflict between the work and this, because we meet like-minded people, we do great stuff, even the coming together. See, we have groups of people who are very interested in tech. So in Bangalore, we have a lot of initiatives where they come together and building community for experience centers, for science centers, for culture centers.

9:04也有社群做醫療保健。過去 100 年我們衍生了 40 多個組織。傘形組織之一叫 Vidya Bharati，在印度經營 29,000 所學校。這些人非常投入教育，發現印度需要更好的機構。We have some community who want to work on the healthcare. So through that, we developed nearly 40-plus organizations in the last 100 years. So, you know, one of the umbrella organizations called Vidya Bharati, which runs 29,000 schools in India. So these are the people who are very much, you know, into education. They realized that we need far better institutions in India.

9:23他們創辦 Vidya Bharati，現在都是自給自足的學校，是印度最好的學校之一。同樣還有醫療、科技、服務活動。我們有 153,000 個服務中心，都是去中心化的據點，在教育、醫療等面向支援社會。因為有目的，大家來會覺得踏實。So they started this organization of Vidya Bharati. Now they are all self-sustaining schools, one of the finest schools in India. Likewise, there is healthcare, there is tech, you know, there is service activities. We run 153,000 service centers, which means these are all decentralized centers where, on different education, healthcare, people are providing support to the society. So because it is purpose-driven, everybody finds it, you know, fulfilling to come.

9:51生產者社群的日常

9:51不會覺得是負擔。有意思。先整理一下：89,000 個地點，有人幾乎每天來。不是純娛樂，他們有收穫，在建比自己更大的東西，也不被視為跟工作取捨，而是生活的一部分。It is not burdensome. Interesting. So, okay. So just to summarize so far. So you're at 89,000 places. You've got people who are coming on a sometimes daily basis. They come because it's not purely recreational. They get something out of it. They're building something bigger than themselves. They are, it's not seen as a trade-off versus work. It's something that you do.

10:16幾乎像……不是好類比，但對美國人來說像槍械俱樂部。G-U-N。美國第二修正案愛好者會去槍械俱樂部跟同好射擊。It's almost like, I don't know, not like this is a silly analogy, but for an American analogy, the gun club. You know, people, G-U-N. Oh, like people who are Second Amendment enthusiasts in America, they'll go and hang out.

10:30美國公民社會裡很多這類俱樂部曾經更大，現在式微了。槍械俱樂部是少數還在的。科技也有非暴力版本：黑客松、程式活動等。They'll go to the gun club and they'll hang out with their guys and shoot guns and so on. Or there's many kinds of clubs like this that used to be a bigger part of civil society in America that have melted down.

10:41你們 shakha 裡做瑜伽、冥想這類？對。我們有很多活動。一是身體：瑜伽、冥想、運動，保持體能。Gun clubs are one of the few that are still around. Obviously, tech has this as well in a nonviolent way, where there's hackathons and coding events and so on and so forth. So, you know, the kinds of things are like yoga, meditation, that's the kind of things that people do. At the shakhas? Yeah. So we have a number of activities.

10:58也有知識討論，談世上發生的事，主要是挑戰。人人都看到挑戰、愛討論問題，但有幾個人真的去解？我們討論的就是這個，以互助價值看社會問題。這是 shakha 日常主要工作。So one is the physical activities where you do yoga, meditation, exercise to be physically fit, something like that, you say. We have intellectual discussions about, you know, about everything, what is happening around the world. Primarily the challenges you see. Everybody sees challenges, loves to discuss the problems, but how many of them take initiative to solve?

11:18我最後為什麼加入：在學校那個年紀，我在找除了日常教育以外、更有趣、能教我更多人生視角的事，它把你從個人帶進更廣的社群，從城鎮到社會、國家、全球福祉。So that's what we discuss. We discuss about the problems in the society in terms of, as I said, the values to help each other. These are the primary work that we do in our day-to-day shakha. Eventually, why I joined, because, you know, I was looking for something which was very interesting at that age of my school, you know, which was apart from our day-to-day routine education thing, which was teaching me a lot more about.

11:43那種理解，透過小小的運動與活動就能建立：你不再只是個人身份，而是大家族的一員。Different perspective about life altogether, because it takes you from an individual to make you a part of a wider community, which is, you know, from your town to society to part of the nation and the global well-being.

11:59你剛讓我想到 David Senra 這類人。科技裡有這種類型：產業巨擘案例研究。Steve Jobs 怎麼做到的？這個人怎麼做到的？That understanding it gives by mere small sports and activities, you make understand that, you know, now. You are not alone in terms of an individual identity, but rather you're part of a big family. You know what you just made me realize is, you know, there's David Senra and a few folks like this.

12:19百年傳承的組織

12:19其實對應你說的：從歷史或當代找一個社群做過、且能套用在你自己生活的事，抽一個教訓，當榜樣或範例。There's a genre like this in tech, which is the titan of industry case study. You know, like how did Steve Jobs do what he did? How did this person do what he did? And what I realize is that actually. Maps onto what you're saying, where you find examples from history or from the present day of a community of people who've done something that's actually applicable to your own life, and you can pluck some lesson from that as kind of whether they're a role model or an exemplar.

12:45可以很偉大，也可以只是普通人做某事，你都能學。所以有自我提升面向，錨定在人的故事裡也比較記得住。對。在科技，人聽是因為想變成像那些人、在科技裡提升自己。They could be really great, or they could just be a normal person doing something, and you can learn from that. So it's that there's kind of a self-improvement aspect to that life experience, right? Because anchored in a human story, it's also more memorable. Yeah. And in tech, people are listening to it because they want to be like those guys or improve themselves, you know, in tech.

13:09這裡比較像人生課，不一定是科技，而是怎麼面對社群、家庭等。大致如此？對。各行各業的人都有，也有對科技有興趣的。Here, they're doing it because it's a life lesson that's not necessarily tech, but it's like, I don't know, how to relate to, you know. Like your community or family or something like that. Is that roughly, yeah? Yeah, it is. I mean, so it has people of all walks of life, so it has people interested in tech as well.

13:27但我們主要做的是啟動一個流程。這組織獨特在哪？很多組織成立，撐不過五年。But primarily what we have done is we have started a process. So what is the uniqueness about the organization? Maybe, you know, you would think that a number of organizations start, and then, you know, their existence never exists beyond another five years.

13:41為什麼這個能 100 年？因為演進？因為我們啟動的是流程。我們確保不是要在社會裡建教派，而是強化社會本身。那個流程允許自我演進，所以更有趣。Why this exists for the 100 years? Evolving? Because we started a process. What we have done is we have made sure that people—we don't want to build a cult in a society. We want to strengthen society itself. So that process is allowing that flexibility about evolving itself, and that makes it more interesting.

14:00我們不阻止人想新點子，不是說你只做這一小時。像健身房，去變強壯，然後用從世上學到的新點子為社會工作。So we never stop people from thinking new ideas, or let's say, you know, you just do this for this one hour. It is a kind of a gym where we go, we be fit, and then you do what you want to do with innovative ideas, whatever you get from around the world, and you work for the society.

14:18這是有趣的演進模式。那偶爾有人撐不下去、要除名，或招募，怎麼維持？So this is an interesting evolution model of a process. And how do you, you know, like once in a while, somebody flunks out, you have to expel them, or you recruit, and so on and so forth. So you maintain.

14:30怎麼成長？人招募人？對，有趣的部分：我們沒有會員制。1000 萬成員，但從來沒有會員與會費。那據點怎麼來？人捐贈？You know, how does it grow? People recruit people in, and so on and so forth, roughly? That's the interesting part. We don't have any membership. So this is 10 million members. We never have membership and membership fees. That's pretty interesting. So how do you have the locations? People are just donating them? Pardon? The locations are just being... Oh, no.

14:49無會費的志工網絡

14:49主要是開放空間，多半是公共場地，活動在那裡進行。任何加入聚會的人就是成員。怎麼成為成員？So these are the open spaces, mainly grounds, some open public grounds, which are available, and then this activity takes place. Anybody who becomes part of that gathering, they are the members. How they become members?

15:01每天來這個活動，就這樣。我們的網絡確保他們在地方上……所以是非正式會員，用價值、用生活實踐理念成為成員。有意思。但你們完全沒有正式會員？By daily showing up to this activity. That's all. And our network makes sure that they are into their local— So it's informal membership. It's informal membership. You become member by values, by living by the ideas. That's the interesting part of it. Interesting. And, you know, you... But you must have—you don't have any formal membership? No, you have some.

15:21沒有，沒有會費那些。所有加入這個運動的人，我們叫志工，他們就是成員。這跟西方思維很不同，實體世界的東西終究要花錢。理論上可以全靠捐贈、不用募資，實務上在印度能擴到這樣，非常有趣。No, we don't have any formal membership in terms of we don't have any membership charges and all. All the members who become part of this movement, we call them volunteers. They are the members. That's interesting, because, you know, that's one thing that definitely is very different than the Western way of thinking about it, because, you know, anything in the physical world does—

15:41你請說。對，因為我們常說這組織某種程度上……cost money in some ways. In theory, it could all be donated, and then you don't have to raise money for it. In practice, it's interesting that that model scales as much as it does in India. That's very interesting. And you go ahead. Yeah, because the reason is, we interestingly say this organization is kind of, you know, working.

16:02它被設計成要被刪除。我們盡量……一旦有了會員制、完整結構，就想終身延續。It is designed to be deleted. What we are trying to do is as much as possible, because once we have a membership, we have a great structure, then we want to continue it for, like, lifelong.

16:12我們想當的是：不要當食物，要當藥。哪天完成任務、社會已能自己站穩、做得很好，我們的存在就融入社會一部分。What we want to be is, we don't want to be food. We want to be medicine. The day we finish off, the day we realize the society has stood up, they are doing great stuff, our existence itself will be in the part of society.

16:24所以我們說要盡快被刪除。因此沒有正式會員那些，我們想強化 14 億人，這是我們在做的。非常有趣。你覺得跟科技界有什麼重疊？組織建設學到什麼？我覺得很多。That's why we say we are there to be deleted as soon as possible. That's why we don't have that formal... membership and all, because we want to strengthen the 1.4 billion people, and that's what we are trying to do. Very interesting. And, you know, what do you think, like, what overlaps between that and the tech world? Like, what lessons in terms of organization building have you learned? I think a lot of things.

16:49首先，這組織跑了 100 年，到目前為止只任命了六位我們稱 Sarsanghchalak 的領袖。很少人知道創辦人，但幾乎人人都知道組織與其影響。First of all, you know, this is an organization that's been running for 100 years. Only six... what we call the chief of the organization, Sarsanghchalak, have been appointed so far. Nobody knows about the founder. Mostly, very few people know about the founder, but everybody knows about the organization and the impact of it.

17:08組織怎麼比創辦人活得久，我想對任何產業都是重要教訓。創辦人確保流程讓組織不必由他一人跑，而是印度去中心化模式裡的人來跑。So how an organization outlasts the founders, that is, I think, the important lesson for any organization, whether it is in tech or any other industry. So the organization made sure. The founder made sure that how organization takes place, a process where it doesn't have to be run by him, but rather by people in a decentralized model in India.

17:30組織分裂式成長

17:30這是第一個教訓。第二，整體組織學習、管理這麼多人、以影響為導向，我想大家都能學。對。那怎麼比創辦人活得久？是不是一切都寫下來？例如 Bezos 在 Amazon 等於複製自己，把想讓人做的事寫下來，他一天只有 24 小時，但文字可以被讀一萬次，他就那樣擴展。So that is, of course, the first lesson. Second, you know, overall organizational learning, managing these many people, impact-driven, is something that I think everybody can learn about it. Yeah. Okay. And, you know, I think, you know, how did it outlast the founder? So is it because everything is written down, and so, you know, for example, Bezos at Amazon effectively scaled himself by taking all of the things that he wanted people to do and putting them in writing, so that he only had 24 hours in a day, but the writing could be read

18:07我現在常想 AI：你可以寫 prompts，把相當細緻的判斷編碼，就能擴展。10,000 times a day, so he could scale himself that way. And I think about this a lot now with AI in particular, where you can write a bunch of prompts and you can take even fairly sophisticated matters of judgment and actually encode them so you can scale that.

18:22組織有沒有想過這樣做？擴展一些判斷？我其實覺得會是有趣的實驗。請說。不，做什麼？Is that something that the organization thinks about doing, is like, you know, maybe scaling some of these things because, you know, I actually think that'd be an interesting experiment to run. Go ahead. No, of doing what?

18:35嗯，例如需要判斷的地方，輸入是這份文件是否符合價值觀，這類事情某個比例可以……Well, so for example, you know, insofar as there's judgment calls that need to be made, and the input to them is like, you know, is this, you know, document in keeping with the values or inconsistent with the values, some fraction of things like that, you know, you can potentially scale a leader or a CEO or something even beyond them passing away, because you've encoded a lot of those judgments.

19:01你理論上可以編碼領袖或 CEO 的判斷，甚至在他過世後仍擴展，因為你編碼了很多判斷。李光耀會怎麼做，對吧？你編碼那個。有沒有想過？嗯，老實說，這組織運作像……有人提到組織有絲分裂。You know, what would Lee Kuan Yew do, right? Like that kind of thing. You could encode that. Have you thought about anything like that? Well, I mean, see, to be honest, this organization functions as something like, I think somebody was mentioning about sort of organizational mitosis.

19:17就是這樣。我們像組織有絲分裂，不是一個人坐著決定一切。當然有領導層驅動整體理念，但地方層級的單位會開新社群、會做，因為我們把能力交給個人，把工作……It is something like this. You know, we work as an organizational mitosis, so we don't really, you know, one guy sitting and deciding everything. Of course, there is a leadership driving, you know, the whole idea. But the idea is that these local-level units, they become, you know, they start new community. They do, because we are empowering individuals. Now we have given that, you know, work

19:41交給那個個人。所以它自然地成長，但很穩健，不是一天就能關掉。那是獨特模式。有意思，根本上是去中心化的。好。to that individual. So it basically grows very naturally, but very robust. So it's not like, you know, it can close down in one day. So that's a unique model of it. Interesting. So it is, it's really fundamentally decentralized in a way. Okay.

19:57開源社會影響模式

19:57非常有趣。好，我學到不少。有一點有趣的是，科技裡最接近的類比是開源，也是純禮物經濟運作。Very interesting. Okay. Well, I've learned a fair bit. And, you know, I think one thing that is interesting from this is how something, I mean, the closest analogy to this in tech is something that's open-source, which also works on a pure sort of gift-economy basis.

20:13沒有錢流進去，但規模很大。或有錢，但在外圍而不是內部。這讓人思考：沒有會費在內部流動，能長多大。There's no money going into it, but it's massive. Or there is money, but the money is on the outside of it rather than the inside of it. That's very interesting to think about how big something can get without any kind of, you know, like, membership dues coursing through it.

20:28對，所以我說這是開源社會影響模式，存在且任何人都能複製，因為 RSS 做的一切都是公開的。活動在開放場地，人來，我們跟社群辦活動。這變成一種運動模式，任何人複製都會成功，你知道？Yeah, that's why I say, you know, it is an open-source social-impact model which exists and anybody can copy it, actually, you know, because whatever happens in RSS, everything is open. You know, our activities take place in open ground. People come there. We do events with the community. So, this has become a model of a movement, which eventually, if anybody copies, will get succeed, you know?

20:49所以這是開源影響模式，我這樣說。好。非常謝謝，Pratik。非常謝謝，Balaji。非常謝謝。So, this is an open-source impact model. That's what I say. Cool. All right. Well, thank you very much, Pratik. Thank you so much, Balaji. Thank you so much.