Balaji 開場：從哈薩克數位國家談網路國家

0:25開場

0:25大家早安，歡迎來到 Network State Conference。今天節目非常精彩。我是 Noah Jessop，擔任今天的 MC。話不多說，請大家熱烈歡迎 Balaji。Good morning, everyone. Welcome to the Network State Conference. We've got an incredible show for you today. My name is Noah Jessop, and I'll be your MC. So, without further ado, could you please give a warm welcome to Balaji.

0:50好。今年的 Network State 是分散式的。我們其實在哈薩克辦了一場小型、也可以說是大型的高峰會，現在則是第二次，在新加坡。我想跟大家說明今天整天的安排，也說明我們在做什麼、目前進展到哪裡。All right. So, you know, this year's Network State is decentralized. We actually had a mini-conference, or maxi-conference, in Kazakhstan, and now we've got our . . second one here in Singapore. I want to talk to you about everything that's going to happen today and just kind of contextualize what we're doing and where the progress of where we are is.

1:272022 年我們出版了《The Network State》這本書，反應相當好。2023 年我們在 Amsterdam 辦了第一屆公開的 Network State Conference。2024 年我們開了 Network School，你們可能在新聞裡看過。So in 2022, we wrote a book called The Network State, and that was, you know, fairly popular. In 2023, we held actually our first conference in Amsterdam, and, you know, this was actually Network State 2023, the first public Network State conference. In 2024, we opened a school, Network School, which you guys might have seen in the headlines.

1:49到 2025 年，我覺得我們已經形成一股運動：Network State Dashboard 上的 startup societies 有幾十個，世界各地都有靠網路建立的社群。現在 2026 年，我們已經和政府結盟。And by 2025, I think we built a movement, in the sense that the Network State Dashboard of startup societies has dozens of startup societies and internet-built communities all around the world. And now in 2026, we're allied with governments.

2:09哈薩克政府夥伴關係

2:09具體來說，幾個月前我和哈薩克總理、Akmola 州長和副總理會面。本質上，我們現在和哈薩克共和國合作建 Network School。哈薩克是個極度高科技的國家，我等一下會說明。And specifically, this is a meeting that I had a few months ago with the Prime Minister of Kazakhstan and the Governor of Akmola and the Deputy Prime Minister. And essentially, we have built Network School now in partnership with the Republic of Kazakhstan. And Kazakhstan is an incredibly high-tech country, as I'm going to explain in a second.

2:35我們基本上完整整合：簽了 MOU，證明網路社群可以和 nation-state 簽協議，這是開先例的事。我們和 AIFC（他們的 crypto 監管機構）合作發行數位資產。And we basically fully integrated, where, you know, we signed an MOU. We proved that it was possible for an internet community to actually sign an agreement with a nation-state, which is a precedent-setting thing. We are working with AIFC, which is their crypto regulator, on issuing digital assets.

2:56我們和 Alatau City 合作，今天結束時你們會聽到更多，基本上是在建新的 crypto city。我們要用 crypto 來讓城市有人進駐，並擴大他們的 Special Economic Zone。We're working with Alatau City, which you're going to hear about at the end of today, on basically building a new crypto city. We're going to use crypto to actually populate the city and scale their Special Economic Zone.

3:10我們把全球投資人帶進來，例如 Polychain 的 Olaf Carlson-Wee。California、Washington State、Chicago、New York 都在逼很多人離開。Larry Page、Zuckerberg、Sergey Brin、Elon 都得離開 California。We're bringing global investors in, so Olaf Carlson-Wee of Polychain. Many investors, you know, people are being forced out of California, out of Washington State, out of Chicago, out of New York. You know, Larry Page had to leave California, and Zuckerberg did, and Sergey Brin and Elon.

3:29Bezos 得離開 Washington。全球資本要往哪裡去？可能會去像哈薩克這種 techno-optimist 國家。我現在人在那裡，Olaf 在那裡，Binance 在那裡，Shervin Pishevar 也剛去。我們真的開始把整件事建起來。我們還辦了 Astana AI Film Festival。這是我們在哈薩克的新據點。Bezos had to leave Washington. Where is global capital going to go? It's going to go to techno-optimist countries like, potentially, Kazakhstan. And so I'm there now. Olaf is there. Binance is there. Shervin Pishevar just came up there. So we're actually starting to actually build this whole thing. And, you know, we held this Astana AI Film Festival. We've, you know, basically—this is our new digs up in Kazakhstan.

3:55網路加國家的光譜

3:55那是一個巨大的球體建築。我們等於重建、重辦。這就是幾週前我在哈薩克說的那場 mini-conference。我們現在是分散式、有韌性，而且和政府完整結盟。這就是 network state：network 加 state。就像 cryptocurrency 裡，Bitcoin 在純主權這一端，stablecoins 則介於So it's this giant, you know, like, basically, sphere. And essentially, we, like, rebuilt. This is the— this is the mini-conference I was talking about just a few weeks ago up in Kazakhstan. So we're now decentralized, distributed, robust, and fully allied with the government. And so that's network state in the sense of network plus state. In the same way that with cryptocurrency, you have Bitcoin all the way out here in terms of pure sovereignty, and then you have something like stablecoins, which are an intermediate between

4:25法幣和純 crypto 之間。現在我們也有 pure internet communities 和傳統 nation-states 之間的政府夥伴關係。我們開始建立整條連續光譜，就像 crypto 社群裡看過的那種。fiat and pure crypto. Now we have government partnerships between pure internet communities and traditional nation-states. So we're starting to establish the whole continuum of the same kinds of things that we saw in cryptocurrency, in crypto communities.

4:40這基本上是以國際網路和 nation-state 互利的夥伴關係。如後面會提到，其實還有另外十個國家也想做類似的事。大方向是：我們可以一起建出靠網路建設、而不是被網路顛覆的國家。And so, you know, this is basically a partnership of an international network and a nation-state for mutual benefit. And as I'll get to, we actually have ten other countries that want to do something like this. And the overall goal is that, you know, together we can create countries that are built by the internet rather than disrupted by it.

5:00其實哈薩克總統已提出要建 fully digital state 的雄心，聽起來很像 network state，重疊也很多。Tokayev 總統、Bektenov 總理、Madiyev 副總理和整個哈薩克政府，行動速度像 startup 一樣快。In fact, actually, the president of Kazakhstan has set out his ambition of building a fully digital state. Sounds a lot like a network state, and in fact has a lot of overlap with it. And President Tokayev, Prime Minister Bektenov, and Deputy Prime Minister Madiyev and the entire Kazakhstan government, they basically move at the speed of a startup.

5:20像新加坡卻有土地

5:20我這麼說是因為我走訪世界各地很多政府，找全球最好的地點，我對我們正在做的事很興奮，因為很像 Singapore，但有空間可以建，面積是 Singapore 的三千倍，對吧？And the reason I say this is I've gone and talked to all kinds of governments around the world, looked for, like, the best place in the world, and I'm very excited about what we're doing because it's a lot like Singapore, but with space to build, because it's 3,000 times the size of Singapore, right?

5:36Singapore 是很棒的國家，但非常小。哈薩克有大片土地。若你想要一千英畝建 startup city，做得到，這在 San Francisco 做不到。你可以在 San Francisco 有 startup incubator，在哈薩克可以有 startup city incubator。Singapore is an amazing country. But it's this very tiny little thing. Kazakhstan has enormous swaths of land. So if you want a thousand acres to build a startup city, you can do that. It's exactly what you can't do in San Francisco. So you might be able to have a startup incubator in San Francisco, but you can have a startup city incubator in Kazakhstan.

5:55基本上還有一堆政府會跟著合作，還有一些在排隊。我們要把 Astana 變成全球 tech hub，因為可以把全世界的人才聚過去。And so basically, you know, there's a bunch of other governments that we're going to work with, a bunch of others that are in the queue. But essentially, we're going to turn Astana into a global tech hub because you can get talent from around the world in there.

6:09可以發行 crypto 資產，可以建 AI data center。在其他地方被關掉的，在哈薩克這類地方開機，尤其是哈薩克本身。舉手問一下：在這場演講之前，有多少人知道哈薩克是高科技國家？好，多少人不知道？You can issue crypto assets. You can build AI data centers. Everything that's being shut down in other parts of the world is booting up in places like Kazakhstan, especially Kazakhstan itself. Like, for example, you know, I talk about a partnership between the network and the state. Just a show of hands: who here, before this talk, knew Kazakhstan was a high-tech country? Okay, who didn't know that?

6:30對，大概一半。哈薩克有全部實體條件：便宜土地、能源、建設能力，也有全部數位條件：AI、crypto，而且人才非常聰明。Yeah, okay, that's, you know, like half. And the thing is, Kazakhstan has all the physical, because it's got cheap land and it's got energy and it's got the ability to build, but it's also got all the digital, which is the AI and the crypto and, you know, they've got very smart people.

6:48奧賽第一與媒體盲點

6:48他們在物理奧林匹亞和並列第一。但多數人對哈薩克唯一知道什麼？對，有一部 Hollywood 電影。所以 legacy media 永遠不會告訴你這種地方。哈薩克需要夥伴，需要能把訊息帶到國際的 network。They tied for number one in the physics Olympiads. But what's the only thing most people know about Kazakhstan? Yeah, there's a Hollywood movie on it, right? So legacy media will never tell you about places like this. So Kazakhstan needs a partner, an international network that can get the message out, because it can only get the message to its own, you know, people, right?

7:10這就是 network 和 state、全球媒體、全球資金，以及本地土地、本地能源之間夥伴關係的例子。對雙方都是 win-win。我們還會做很多。你們看，Astana 有高科技，頂部那張是真實照片。開車 20 分鐘就能騎馬。And so that's an example of the partnership between network and state, between— global media, global money, and local land, local energy. That's a win-win cooperation for both sides. And so we're going to be doing a lot more. As you can see, it has the high tech of Astana. That's a real photo at the top. And 20 minutes away, you can be on a horse.

7:31它有歐洲那種未開發的土地，也有亞洲的高科技城市。我對哈薩克很興奮，你們會聽到更多。會像 El Salvador 從 nowhere 突然冒起來，Singapore、UAE/Dubai 也在過去五年更 prominent。So it's got the unspoiled land of Europe and the high-tech cities of Asia. So I'm very excited about Kazakhstan. You're going to hear a lot more about Kazakhstan. It'll be like, you know how El Salvador came out of nowhere and just suddenly you started hearing about it, and to a lesser extent Singapore and the UAE/Dubai, they became much more prominent over the last five years.

7:53哈薩克的時機到了，你們會聽到更多。這也是今天主題的一部分：網路帶來的 disruption，以及社群、城市、國家如何回應。一種回應是把建網路的人當 scapegoat。Kazakhstan's time has come. You're going to hear a lot more about it. And this is part of today's theme, which is the disruption wrought by the internet and the response of communities, cities. countries to that disruption. You know, one response is to basically scapegoat the people who are building the internet.

8:10就像 20 世紀初他們把 capitalists 當 Industrial Revolution 的 scapegoat，現在有人把 technologists 當 Internet Revolution 的 scapegoat。可能是移民、億萬富翁、移民億萬富翁，whatever。左派右派都對這種來自網路的 disruption 有意見。但 disruption 也可以換個回應：我們要建 fully digital state。Much like in the early 20th century, they scapegoated capitalists for the Industrial Revolution, people are scapegoating technologists for the Internet Revolution. Either they're immigrants, or they're billionaires, or they're immigrant billionaires, or whatever, right? But basically, both left and right have something, you know, some kind of bone to pick with this disruption that's happening from the internet. But that disruption, you can also respond to it by saying, hey, we want to build a fully digital state.

8:36與網路合作或遭顛覆

8:36你可以與網路合作。網路是什麼？其中一項就是 international network。你可以與 international networks 合作，也可以被它顛覆。So basically, you can work with the internet, which is, what is the internet? International network, among other things, right? You can work with the internet. You can work with international networks, or you can get disrupted by it.

8:48這是今天的主題之一。今天大會有幾個部分。緊接著我之後，你們會聽到哈薩克副總理談 digital sovereignty。然後 Zcash Summit 談 digital privacy，有三位 Zcash 共同創辦人，社群領袖會談 scaling Zcash。很多方面來說，我愛 Bitcoin。And this is one of today's themes. So today's conference has, you know, several different subparts. First, you're going to hear right after me from the Deputy Prime Minister of Kazakhstan on digital sovereignty. And then you're going to hear about digital privacy at the Zcash Summit. And we have three of the co-founders of Zcash. Many of the leaders in the Zcash community are going to talk about scaling Zcash. And really, in many ways, look, I love Bitcoin.

9:14Bitcoin 仍會有角色，因為它的 transparency 讓政府能證明持有 Bitcoin。他們無法證明是否持有實體黃金，Fort Knox 的影片也不會被信任，但 Bitcoin 可以證明。And I think Bitcoin is going to continue to have a role, because its transparency means governments can prove they hold Bitcoin. They can't prove whether they hold gold, physical gold. You know, a video of Fort Knox would not be trusted, but you can prove whether you hold Bitcoin.

9:30Bitcoin 繼續當透明資產、西方機構的 reserve asset。Zcash 我認為會成為全球個人的 encrypted cash。這九場演講會讓你們學到很多 Zcash。然後和 VC、創辦人談 technology。So Bitcoin continues as a transparent asset, the reserve asset of Western institutions. But Zcash, I think, becomes the encrypted cash of individuals around the world. And so you're going to learn a lot about Zcash just from these nine talks. Then we're going to talk with VCs and founders on technology. I mean, duh. Okay, it's, you know, a tech conference, okay?

9:50但不只如此，就算做這行的人，例如 Ilya 是 competitive coder。有時我寄 PDF 給 Ilya 或 Vitalik，問「你夠聰明看懂嗎？」他會說「Balaji，我不夠聰明。」這就是這些東西移動的速度。But also not duh, because, you know, even people who do this for a living, you know, Ilya, for example, is like a competitive coder. Like, you know, sometimes I'll send a PDF to someone like Ilya or Vitalik and I'll say, "Are you smart enough to understand this?" He'll say, "No, Balaji, I'm not smart enough." And that's how fast this stuff is moving, right?

10:10今日議程與講者

10:10我們會和 Haseeb、Ilya、David Hoffman、Floodgate 共同創辦人 Mike Maples，還有 Vitalik 談 simultaneous singularities，以及是否可能不加速。So we're going to talk about a bunch of the simultaneous singularities with Haseeb and Ilya and David Hoffman and Mike Maples, co-founder of Floodgate, and with Vitalik on all the singularities that are happening and whether it's even possible to not accelerate.

10:24午餐後會有幾個 startup societies，網路優先、正在建立的社群。基本上是九個不同例子，有的從網路長出來，有的在網路之前存在再適應。After lunch, we're going to have several startup societies. Internet-first communities that are being created. And this is basically about, you know, nine different examples of startup societies that have been built either from the internet or pre-internet and adapted to it.

10:40然後我和 Eric Weinstein 對談，他是 Thiel Capital 的同事兼朋友（formerly），我們爭論很久了。Then we're going to have a fireside with me and Eric Weinstein, a colleague and friend of mine from Thiel Capital, or formerly of Thiel Capital, and we've been having an argument for a long time.

10:52友善的爭論：若 Western institutions 在衰退，接下來是什麼？今天中段我會和 Curtis Yarvin 有一場長對談，談 decentralized democracy 對 American monarchy。A friendly argument about, you know, okay, if Western institutions are declining, what comes next? Next, at the midpoint of today, we're going to have a long fireside with me and Curtis Yarvin on decentralized democracy versus American monarchy.

11:05我知道很多朋友很期待，我不劇透，中段要留下來。當然一切都在變，貨幣和 identity 也是。你可以換新貨幣，這就是 cryptocurrency。我們也可以換 identity，例如換 citizenship。And I know a lot of my friends are looking forward to this, so I won't spoil it. You'll just have to, you know, stay for the middle on this one. Now, of course, everything is changing. So are currency and identity. Obviously, you can change into new currencies. That's what cryptocurrency is. We can also change identities, like changing your citizenship.

11:24這會是個 huge new industry，規模和大過 cryptocurrency。若 cryptocurrency 是你的 digital tribe，crypto identity 是你的 physical tribe，你住在哪裡。會有四場演講談這個，兩場談 cryptocurrency，Paxos 和 Zebedee 的 CEO，你們可能聽過。This is going to be a huge new industry that's as big as or bigger than cryptocurrency. If cryptocurrency is your digital tribe, crypto identity is your physical tribe, like, where do you live? And so we're going to have four talks on that and two talks on cryptocurrency with the CEOs of Paxos and Zebedee, you may have heard of.

11:40收尾與歷史脈絡

11:40最後我們會評估整體 trajectory，下一步是什麼。我們基本上和哈薩克政府融合，network state meets digital state，startup cities meet crypto city，會談我們的計畫。Finally, we're going to assess the overall trajectory. What are the next steps? We basically fused with the government of Kazakhstan. Network state meets digital state, you know, startup cities meet crypto city, and we're going to talk about what our plans are.

11:53然後用歷史來收尾。Niall Ferguson 會下飛機直衝進來，我們會談 states 和 networks 的歷史。And then we're going to close by contextualizing with some history. Niall Ferguson is going to hop off a plane and run right in here, and we're going to talk about the history of states and networks.

12:03不多說，開始吧，請歡迎 Deputy Prime Minister Zhaslan Madiyev。謝謝。So, without further ado, let's get started, and please welcome Deputy Prime Minister Zhaslan Madiyev. Thank you.