BNY 總裁 Robin Vince：老銀行如何擁抱數位資產與 AI

0:00BNY 的創新與數位資產之路

0:00謝謝大家的掌聲。大家好。謝謝你，Robin，願意參與這次活動。很高興能和你一起，Leslie。也很高興和在場的各位一起。這個時機真的非常好，因為我剛剛才花了一整天的時間在你們位於市中心的辦公室，你們擁有如此悠久的歷史，是美國最古老的銀行。而且你們現在正大力投資於人工智慧，積極擁抱新科技。當然，我們今天在這裡是要討論數位資產。所以，也許我們可以先從你們是如何看待數位資產開始談起，BNY又是如何真正積極投入這些新科技的。Thank you for the applause. Hi, everybody. Thank you, Robin, for doing this. It's great to be with you, Leslie. Great to be with everybody. So this is so well timed because I just spent essentially a day in your offices downtown, and you have such a storied history, the oldest bank in the U.S. And you are investing heavily in AI. You're leaning into new technologies. Obviously, we are here to talk about digital assets. So maybe we just kind of start by level setting how you're thinking about digital assets, how BNY is really leaning into these new technologies.

0:42那麼，也許我可以先幫大家設定一下背景，提醒大家BNY在創新方面是什麼樣的角色。我們是在240年前以紐約銀行（Bank of New York）的名義創立的。我們是美國歷史最悠久的銀行。我們成立的時候，紐約市只有兩萬人居住。那時距離電力商業化還有一百年。如果你想像一下當時的科技，其實基本上就是羽毛筆和墨水。快轉到幾百年後，我們在1955年購買了我們的第一台電腦。我們在1977年開始用真正的科技來處理美國政府證券。Well, maybe I'll just set the scene by just reminding people who BNY is in the context of innovation. So we were founded 240 years ago as the Bank of New York. We're the oldest bank in the United States. We were founded at a time when there were 20,000 people who lived in New York. It was 100 years before the commercialization of electricity. And if you just think about what the technology of the day was, it was basically quill and ink. And cut forward a couple of hundred years, we bought our first computer in 1955. We started processing using technology, really proper technology, U.S. government securities in 1977.

1:30我們在九零年代中期就完成了我們第一筆基於網路的證券交易，那是在網路泡沫破裂之前很久的事。所以我們是一家隨著各種不同科技成長起來的公司，並且我們經過長時間的學習，了解到唯有持續創新，才能成為一家具有持久力的長期企業。We did our first internet-based securities transaction in the mid-'90s, well before the bursting of the dot-com bubble. So we are a firm that's grown up with a whole bunch of different technologies, and we've learned over a long period of time that you get to be a durable long-term company when you innovate.

1:58當你真正善用現有最新、最先進的技術時，就能發揮最大的效益。我們的AI發展歷程，其實就是過去三年持續投入資源與創新。而我們在數位資產方面的故事也非常類似。我們是第一家提供數位資產託管服務的大型銀行，對於數位資產、AI以及其他科技，我們都感到非常興奮，也很期待這些技術隨著時間的推移能夠相互結合。And when you really take advantage of the latest and greatest of what's available. And so our AI story has been one of three years really investing and innovating. And our digital assets story is very similar. We were the first large bank to offer digital asset custody, and we're excited about digital assets, AI, other technologies. And how they come together over time.

2:16金融業的關鍵時刻：AI 與數位資產

2:16雖然你沒經歷過所有這些科技變革，但現在 AI 和數位資產的發展，感覺是金融服務業歷史上很特別的時刻。你怎麼看這一波跟過去的科技演進有什麼不同？Now, I know you weren't around for a lot of those technological innovations, but it really feels like with AI and digital assets, we're at a pretty unique moment in the history of financial services. How would you kind of characterize that relative to all of those technologies that you outlined throughout your history?

2:34我覺得現在是一個非常令人興奮的時刻。我認為我們有一個風險，就是可能會陷入一種陷阱，而這種情況在歷史上一直都會發生，就是我們會說這一次不一樣，這一次整個世界已經完全改變了，因為這正是我們所處的時代。所以，現在總是看起來最清楚，也感覺最有影響力。但我確實認為這些技術是真正、真正具有革命性的。而且它們在同一個時期成熟，像是數位資產、科技、區塊鏈，這些讓我們有機會去做很多事情、創新金融服務、重新打造、重新想像，這真的非常令人興奮。It feels to me like an incredibly exciting time. I think there's a risk that we could somehow fall into the trap, and this has been true over the ages, that say this time it's different, this time the whole world has completely changed, because it's the moment that we're living in. So it always tends to be that the present is the most clear and sort of feels like the most impactful. But I do think these technologies are truly, truly revolutionary. And the fact that they come together at similar times, from a maturity point of view, digital assets, technology, blockchain, the opportunities to do things and innovate financial services, reinvent, reimagine, is very exciting.

3:17這已經持續一段時間了。我認為我們正處於一個成熟與加速的關鍵點。然後很明顯地，隨著AI的發展，這個曲線變得更加陡峭，而且正在加速。但在接下來的五到十年裡，這兩件事的發展，以及它們的結合，像是代理型商務、數位資產帶來的高度細分機會，看到這兩者如何結合，我認為這對於人們、對於這項技術的使用者來說，是一個非常非常令人興奮的時刻，但同時也是……It's been going on for a while. I think we're hitting a point of maturity and acceleration. And then obviously with AI, it's an even quicker curve, and it's accelerating. But those two things over the course of the next five or ten years, and as they come together, agentic commerce, quite molecular opportunities with digital assets, seeing how the two things come together, I think it's a very, very exciting time for people, for users of the technology, but also.

3:45對於那些想要真正成為創新故事一部分的創新者來說，如果你選擇鴕鳥心態，認為這一切其實沒在發生，或者覺得這跟自己無關，或者只是某種技術，打算交給自己的工程團隊處理，我認為你就是錯失了一個機會。我們在BNY當然不想掉進那個陷阱。For innovators who want to actually be part of that innovation story, if you stick your head in the sand and you think it's not really happening, or somehow it's not for me, or it's just a piece of tech, I'll leave it to my engineering teams. I think you're just missing an opportunity. We certainly at BNY don't want to fall into that trap.

4:05是的，你們有AI訓練營，把大家聚集在一起，花上一整天學習成為專家，不只是工程部門的員工，還有律師和其他人。因為這關乎文化，對吧。事實上，對我們公司來說，我們已經學到這個教訓。那就是，這不只是關於某項技術的存在或可用性。最終，重點在於它如何被納入？它如何被嵌入？它實際上如何改變事情？這關乎採用。這關乎使用。這關乎應用情境。這關乎需要被解決的問題。Yeah, you have AI boot camps where you gather people together to spend a whole day learning to be experts, not just engineering employees, but the lawyers and others. Because that's about culture. Right. And in fact, for us as a company, and we have learned this lesson. Which is, it isn't just about the existence or availability of a technology. At the end of the day, it's how does it get incorporated? How does it get embedded? How does it actually change things? That's about adoption. That's about use. That's about use cases. That's about problems that need to be solved.

4:44或者是那些能夠真正讓世界變得更好、讓客戶生活更便利的技術或能力的應用，因為我們實際上是在解決問題。所以，傾聽客戶的需求，技術最終如何改變使用情境，讓我們能夠有更多資產的流動性，在數位資產的情境下，能夠做到全天候、即時處理。這些都是現今金融體系還無法做到或做得不夠好的真實需求。因此，AI 的結合，對於這些需求來說非常令人興奮，但更重要的是流動性和儲存。數位資產技術所帶來的新機會，我認為這是一件非常令人興奮的事情。Or applications for technologies or capabilities that can actually make the world better or make customers' lives easier because we're actually solving problems. And so client listening, how does the technology ultimately change use cases so that we can have more mobility of assets, more 24/7 in the case of Digital assets, real time. These are all real things that the financial system today doesn't deliver as well as it could. So the combination of AI, which is very exciting for these same things, but very importantly, the mobility and the storage. New opportunities that the technologies of digital assets provide, I think is a very exciting thing.

5:32BNY 如何成為數位資產託管領頭羊

5:32是的，你剛剛提到你們當然是第一家也是唯一一家G-SIB，也就是系統性重要機構，提供數位資產託管服務。這一點很值得注意，因為你們是全球最大的託管機構之一，託管或管理的資產高達57.8兆美元。你們為了能夠安心地做這件事，必須做哪些準備？因為你們真的非常積極投入，是這個領域的先行者。我可以想像這絕對不是那種「喔，我們來做這個吧」，然後像打開電燈開關一樣就發生的事情。Yeah, and you mentioned you're, of course, the first and only G-SIB, which is systemically important institution that offers digital asset custody. And this is noteworthy because you're one of the world's largest custodians with 57.8 trillion in assets under custody or administration. What did you need to do to feel comfortable doing this? Because you're really leaning in in a big way, a first mover here. I can imagine it wasn't something that you just kind of, oh, let's do this and, you know, turn on a light switch and it ultimately happened.

6:05你知道，曾經有一種觀點。有些人現在仍然持有這種看法，我尊重這一點。這不是我們的觀點，但最終——DeFi 是一種掃除既有參與者、鞏固利益關係，並且讓一切都能從一張全新的白紙開始的方法。很明顯，作為一家已經存在一段時間的機構，這樣說對我來說有點自利，但這並不是我們的觀點。不過我認為我們有一些非常充分的理由認為，我們在這個領域確實有可以發揮的角色，因為我們有幾個不同的優勢。我們是一個受信任的組織，因為我們已經有網路效應。我們有一群現有的使用者。You know, there was a point of view. Some people still have it, and I respect it. It's not our point of view, but ultimately—DeFi was a way to sweep away established players, entrench points of interest, and everything could start with a complete clean sheet of paper. Obviously, it's self-serving for me to say this, but that wasn't our point of view as an established institution that's been around for a while. But I think we have some very good reasons for thinking. That we have a real role to play in this space because we have several different advantages. We are a trusted organization because we have a network effect already. We have an existing set of customers.

6:46我們與現有的金融基礎設施有著深厚的連結。我們可以作為傳統金融與數位金融生態系之間非常有效的橋樑。因為說到底，一項正在尋找使用者的技術有時會遇到困難。但我們是一個推動採用的載體，因為我們實際上可以鼓勵我們的客戶跨出那一步，舉例來說，像是貨幣市場基金。我們已經為貨幣市場基金創建了數位代幣，推出了新的基金股份類別。所以，既有的貨幣市場基金提供者，提供貨幣市場基金股份類別的業者，也可以提供數位化的貨幣市場基金。基本上它是同一檔基金，只是股份類別和範圍不同，這樣就能夠以數位資產產品的形式來發行。這樣實際上會促進採用，而不是從完全沒有基礎的地方開始。We're deeply connected to the existing rails. We can act as a very effective bridge between the traditional finance and the digital finance ecosystems. Because at the end of the day, a technology that's in search of adopters can sometimes struggle. But we are an adoption vehicle because we can actually encourage our customers to make the leap, take a money market fund. We've created digital tokens, new share classes for money market funds. So established money market fund providers. Who offer share classes of money market funds can also offer a digitized money market fund. It's essentially the same fund, different share classes, different ranges, and that allows for that to be distributed as a digital asset product. That will actually encourage adoption, as opposed to just starting from absolutely nothing.

7:45我們每天處理 3 兆美元支付，託管 60 兆美元資產，8 兆美元抵押品，日結 20~30 兆美元美債，還有 3 兆美元財富管理資產，是全球最大企業信託機構。這些規模讓我們能跟數位資產客戶合作推動創新，也能幫助現有客戶 adopt 新科技。這種網路效應、信任和既有地位，對 adoption 速度很有幫助。So for us, being an established player. We make $3 trillion of payments every day. We custody $60 trillion of assets. We have $8 trillion of collateral assets on our platform. We settle $20 to $30 trillion of U.S. Treasuries every single day. We have $3 trillion of wealth assets on our software and services platform. We're the world's largest corporate trustee. These are big established positions. That allow us to partner with digital asset clients to be able to help them drive the innovation, but also partner with our existing clients to help them adopt the innovation. And the coming together of those worlds, it's very helpful. This network effect, the trust, the incumbency is actually a powerful speed to adoption.

8:31風險控管與標準制定

8:31你們作為第一個吃螃蟹的大型機構，怎麼看新科技的風險控管？怎麼確保系統不會被不當利用？How do you think about risk mitigation with this new technology, especially being the first mover and ensuring that nothing unscrupulous is going through the systems?

8:43是的，這非常重要，我們對此非常警覺。你知道，韌性對我們來說是一種商業特質。資安防禦、驅逐犯罪分子出系統、確保他們無法立足，這些都是我們的工作。這在新科技領域和舊科技領域一樣適用。我認為，這也是為什麼讓既有且受信任的市場參與者進入這個體系，實際上能提升這個體系的聲譽，讓人們更能信任它的另一個原因。如果這裡像是個無法無天的西部世界，那麼對某些人來說，生活在這樣的世界裡可能會很有趣。Yeah, it's incredibly important, and we're super vigilant about it. You know, resilience is a commercial attribute for us. Cyber defense, you know, chasing criminals out of the system, making sure they can't get a foothold. And that's as true in the new technologies as it's been in the old ones. And I think, again, another reason why having established trusted market participants in the system actually creates a reputational enhancement for what is the system and the ability of people to trust it. If it's the Wild West, then it'll be fun for some folks to live in that Wild West world.

9:22但說到底，金融服務社群中有90%的人，包括退休基金、大型資產管理公司、大型使用者，這些最終會推動全面採用的人，他們現在根本不想碰這個。所以，讓這個東西變得安全、可靠、值得信賴，並且把「了解你的客戶」、「了解你的代幣來源」這些概念都真正內嵌進去，其實非常重要。這對我們這種受監管機構來說當然很重要，但我認為這對整個體系也有好處，因為當這個體系被信任時，它其實就能推動所謂的採用。But at the end of the day, the 90% of the financial services community, the pension funds, the big asset managers, the big users. Who ultimately are going to help to encourage full adoption, they don't want to have anything to do with it. So it is actually really important that it's safe, that it's reliable, that it's trusted, that we have kind of the concepts of know your customer, know your token provenance, and all of that stuff embedded actually in it. And that's obviously important for us as a regulated institution, but I actually think it's good for the system as well because when the system gets trusted, it actually can promote this concept of adoption.

10:00這是安全可以使用的。BNY 也有參與在這裡。我們可以提供協助，也可以信賴他們。不過，是的，你必須要有良好的標準，而有時候在這方面會有一些摩擦，特別是當舊的事物遇到新的事物時。但對我們來說，制定標準是價值主張中很重要的一部分，顯然這對我們來說也是不可或缺的。It's safe to use. BNY is participating here. We can help and rely on them. But yeah, you have to have good standards, and sometimes there's a bit of grinding when it comes to that, when the old meets the new. But for us, that standard setting is an important part of. The value proposition, obviously, it's essential for us as well.

10:20那數位資產的標準制定，跟傳統證券、國債、現金有什麼不同？How is the standard setting different for digital assets versus known securities, treasuries, cash, and so forth?

10:27嗯，我認為概念是一樣的，最終來說，你到底是在跟誰交易？這是什麼？它的目的又是什麼？在數位資產世界裡，有一些部分其實還可以接受比較不那麼透明的狀態，他們也樂於在比較少聚光燈的地方生存。但我認為，對於既有體系來說，如果真的、真的要實現普及，你就必須要有那些理解的原則，而不是試圖躲在陰影裡。所以我們的工作就是要搞清楚，誰是使用者？這個資產是什麼？它安全嗎？它是否真的如同它所宣稱的那樣運作？Well, I think the concepts are the same, which is at the end of the day, who are you transacting with? What is it? What is the purpose? And there are parts of the digital asset world which are okay to sort of, they are happy to live a little bit more without all of the bright light. But I think for the established system, in order to truly, truly have adoption, you've got to have those principles of understanding and not be trying to hide in the shadows. And so we're in the business of saying, who are the customers? What is the asset? Is it safe? Is it doing what it says on the box?

11:03這個產品真的能夠實現一個實際的應用場景嗎？它是否真的有助於經濟和金融市場的成長？我們採取一個非常簡單直接的方式，也就是國家的經濟繁榮非常重要。這就是我們的使命宣言。對於我們所有生活在這個國家的人來說，創造並促進國家繁榮是目標，在這裡是美國，但我們在全球各地都在做這件事。我們是一個非常全球化的機構。為了達成這個目標，我們的觀點是必須擁有一個優秀的金融體系。要擁有一個優秀的金融體系，就必須擁有優秀的資本市場。Is it a product that's actually going to be able to deliver a use case? And is it actually supporting the growth of the economy and financial markets? Like, we take a very simple straight-line approach, which is economic prosperity for a nation is super important. That's the mission statement. Really, for all of us living in a nation to create and enable national prosperity, in this case here in the United States, but we do this around the world. We're a very global institution. In order to do that, we have a point of view that you have to have a great financial system. In order to have a great financial system, you have to have great capital markets.

11:40為了擁有優秀的資本市場，你必須擁有各種不同的市場參與者生態系。這正是推動資本市場發展的關鍵。這包括數位資產提供者、傳統金融基礎設施、資產管理公司、對沖基金、流動性提供者、大型銀行、小型銀行、社區銀行。如果你擁有豐富的生態系，就會有創新，而這非常重要。因此，對我們來說，促成這樣的生態系是我們工作的一部分。但為了讓所有人都能進入這個生態系，這個環境必須是值得信賴的。In order to have great capital markets, you've got to have the various different market participant ecosystem. That drives that. That's digital asset providers, that's traditional rails, it's asset managers, hedge funds, liquidity providers, large banks, small banks, community banks. And if you have a rich ecosystem, you have innovation, and that's very important. So for us, enabling that is part of the mix. But in order to get everybody in the ecosystem, it has to be a trusted situation.

12:10合作夥伴與鏈接傳統金融

12:10你們也選擇跟 Ripple、Circle 合作。這些合作在建立信任、KYC 等方面有多重要？You've also opted for partnerships with Ripple and Circle. How important are partnerships, given that backdrop of the need to have a trusted partner and kind of KYC and so forth?

12:22沒錯，他們絕對是不可或缺的，因為對我們來說，我們並不是全知全能的。我們有不錯的想法，但我們並沒有壟斷所有好點子，所以我們非常希望能和其他人合作。我們的客戶，讓我們稱他們為傳統客戶，他們也想和我們合作，因為他們會看著我們說：「嘿，BNY，你們好像真的懂這一塊。你們似乎對這個世界有一些了解。」Absolutely, they're absolutely essential because for us, we don't—we are not full. We have good ideas, but we don't have a monopoly on them, and so we are very much wanting to partner with other people. Our clients who are, let's call them traditional clients, they want to partner with us because they look to us and they say, Hey, BNY, you actually kind of get it. You seem to understand this world a little bit.

12:47那你能不能比喻性地牽著我們的手，帶我們一步步了解，發行一個貨幣市場基金的代幣化股份類別或代幣化存款到底是什麼意思？或者，我們能不能把我們的證券放到區塊鏈上，而不只是用傳統方式結算？然後，對於數位資產提供者來說，他們看著我們，發現其實他們也需要我們一些傳統的能力。如果你是一個穩定幣，猜猜看？你其實需要託管，因為你需要有人來管理你的儲備資產。你需要有人能夠進行支付，因為你必須能夠移轉資金。So can you proverbially hold our hand and walk us through what does it mean to issue a tokenized share class of a money market fund or tokenized deposit, or can we put our security on chain instead of just settling in the traditional world? And then for the digital asset providers, they look at us and see that they actually need some of our traditional capabilities as well. If you're a stablecoin, guess what? You actually need custody because you need somebody to look after the reserve assets. You need somebody to be able to make payments because you've got to be able to move money.

13:22你需要追蹤到底是誰實際擁有你的代幣。所以這裡有一整套……你需要一個資產管理人來為……選擇資產。我們做這些所有的事情。所以他們會看向我們，說你們其實可以成為我們——數位資產提供者——與所有你們在做的傳統業務之間的橋樑。因此，我們對每個不同的群體來說代表著不同的意義，但這個將傳統金融基礎設施與數位基礎設施連結起來的主題，還有有時候傳統基礎設施其實運作得非常好。You need to keep track of who it is that actually owns your tokens. So there's a whole... You need an asset manager to select the assets for the... We do all of those things. So they look to us and say, well, you can actually be a bridge to us, the digital asset providers, through all the traditional things that you do. And so we represent different things for each constituency, but this theme of connecting the traditional rails with the digital rails, and sometimes the traditional rails work really well.

13:51我認為我們有時候會陷入一種人類常見的陷阱，就是認為有了新東西，因此它就比較好，因此它就能解決所有舊的問題。在傳統金融市場中，有些東西其實運作得相當不錯。你知道，S&P 500 股票的交易和結算流程其實非常流暢。不過，還是有很多其他資產沒有一個好的歸屬。我們也還沒有真正做到全天候 24/7 的運作，所以在某些使用情境下，數位資產技術確實可以解決問題。所以這其實是現有參與者和新參與者的結合，重點是要找出有哪些問題需要解決。我們能不能成為一個平台，讓這些人能夠聚集在一起？I think we can sometimes fall into the trap as humans of saying, hey, there's something new, therefore it's better, therefore it's going to fix all the old issues. Some things work pretty well in traditional financial markets. You know, the settlement, the trading and settlement of S&P 500 equities is a pretty slick affair. There are, however, plenty of other assets which don't have a good home. We don't have full 24/7, so there are use cases where digital asset technology will solve problems. So it's this combination of the existing participants, the new participants, what are the problems to solve? Can we be a venue to enable those coming together?

14:32穩定幣監管與 CLARITY Act

14:32我想再多問你一點關於穩定幣的問題，因為這一直是金融服務業界有些爭議的話題。本週，有報導指出穩定幣收益僵局已經獲得解決，而這個僵局已經讓CLARITY Act凍結了好幾個月。基本上，新的規範是，僅僅因為持有代幣而獲得的被動穩定幣收益將被禁止，但與支付、轉帳或平台使用相關的活動型獎勵則是可以的。你怎麼看這件事？你覺得這樣滿意嗎？I want to ask you a bit more about stablecoin because that's been a topic of a little bit of consternation in the financial services industry. This week there has been a reported resolution to the stablecoin yield standoff that has frozen the Clarity Act for months now. And essentially the new contours are that passive stablecoin yield earned just by holding the token would be banned, but activity-based rewards tied to payments, transfers, or platform use is okay. What do you make of that? Is that satisfactory, do you think?

15:07你看，如果你回頭去看GENIUS Act，GENIUS Act是一項重要的立法，因為它確實為如何讓穩定幣在美國運作並發揮效用奠定了初步基礎。而我對於CLARITY Act的看法是，如果我再往外退一步來看，問自己：我們真正需要的是什麼？為了能夠加速發展，我們需要明確性和明確的規則，因為當我們面臨不確定性、當我們有不同監管機構持有不同觀點、當我們缺乏明確性時，這其實意味著大家在如何推進上會有所猶豫。Look, if you go back and you look at the Genius Act, the Genius Act was an important piece of legislation because it really laid out the beginnings for how to make stablecoins operate and be effective in the United States. And the way that I think about the Clarity Act is if I just click back one step out. And say, what do we really need? In order to go fast, we need clarity and rules of the road, because when we have uncertainty, when we have maybe different regulatory authorities with different points of view, when we have lack of clarity, it really means there's a hesitancy in terms of how to be able to proceed.

15:48而這種猶豫會減緩採用的速度。這確實會造成阻礙。對我們這種規模較大、已經建立起來的參與者來說，你不知道該如何繼續前進，因為你不太確定事後回顧時，事情會被如何評斷，因為我們沒有那種立法上的明確性。如果你是在這個環境中的監管機構或主管機關，你也不知道該如何制定規則和訂立標準，因為你沒有立法的起點。所以這會造成猶豫，並且減緩創新。And that hesitancy slows adoption. And it kind of gets in the way. Certainly for us as a larger established participant, you don't know exactly how to proceed because you're not quite sure how things would be judged with the benefit of hindsight because we don't have that legislative clarity. If you're a regulator or a supervisor in the environment, you don't know exactly how to go ahead and make your rules and lay out the standards because you don't have the legislative starting point. So it creates a hesitancy. It slows down innovation.

16:17即使有些人會看這件事，然後說，天啊，你知道，我們不需要這麼多規則，也不需要這麼多立法，但我看法有點不同，我認為，立法的明確性能夠帶來規則的明確性。它能夠創造一個公平的競爭環境，讓大家可以開始在這個基礎上創新。而且，你知道，Atkins 主席等等會在這裡出現——你知道，他一直是數位資產的優秀倡導者。再強調一次同樣的重點：合理的監管、明確性，我們要怎麼往前走，這樣我們才能真正開始採用新科技，而不是讓這個機會從我們身邊溜走。And even though some people look at it and say, Gosh, well, you know, we don't need all these rules and we don't need all this legislation, I look at it a bit differently and say, clarity of legislation enables clarity of rules. It enables a playing field that then people can start to innovate on. And, you know, look, Chair Atkins is going to be along here later on, and—you know, he's been a terrific advocate for digital assets. And again, the same point: sensible regulation, clarity, how do we move forward so that we can really get into the business of adopting a new technology and not somehow let the opportunity pass us by.

16:55銀行的觀點是，如果穩定幣能被動領息，會讓消費者把錢從傳統存款轉去穩定幣，但這些錢沒有同樣的監管保障。現在只允許跟活動有關的獎勵，這樣比較平衡，不會讓系統變得不安全。The bank's perspective was that, you know, if you offer yield on stablecoin, that—You know, it encourages consumers to move toward stablecoins versus traditional deposits without the necessary regulatory protections. So this way, where they can offer rewards, but not just for passively holding it, seems to kind of thread that needle a bit. It wouldn't make—The system less safe, in other words?

17:20你知道，關於收益這個問題以及什麼本質上算是穩定幣，一直以來都有爭論和爭議。如果你實際回到貨幣和存款的原則來看，這裡有一點類比。我們可能會帶著現金在身上，雖然現在比以前少很多。但如果你有一張一美元鈔票，那就是美國政府的直接負債。它不會支付任何利息。你把它放在口袋裡，並不會因此獲得任何利息。但它有其便利性，因為它是一種交易的方式，所以讓你能夠輕鬆用現金進行商業活動。You know, there's been debate and controversy associated with this whole question of yield and what essentially is a stablecoin. And if you actually go back to the principle of money and deposits, and there's a little bit of an analogy here. We walk around with cash potentially in our pockets, maybe a lot less so than we used to. But if you have a dollar bill, that's a direct liability of the U.S. government. It doesn't pay any interest. You put it in your pocket, you don't get any interest from that. But it has a convenience because it's such a method of transacting, and so it allows to be able to easily perform commercial activities with the cash.

18:01你可以說，大家所擁有的金融卡支付網路和支票帳戶，在本質上是相似的。它們不會支付利息，但它們確實是一種交易的手段，也是商業活動的工具。所以，對於穩定幣來說，問題就在於它的定位是什麼？它本質上是否也要成為同樣類型的交易工具？如果是這樣，那麼參照現有的交易工具，穩定幣就不會支付利息，因為那些其他的交易工具也沒有支付利息。還是說，穩定幣是一種資金的儲存機制？And you could argue that the debit card rails and the checking accounts that we all have are similar in their nature. They don't pay interest, but they're a real means of transaction and they're a means of commerce. And so the question for a stablecoin is what is it meant to be? Is it essentially meant to be that same type of means of transaction? And in that case, the proxy would be that it wouldn't pay interest because those other transactional tools don't. Or is it a storage mechanism for money?

18:33如果它是一個真正的儲存機制，而這個代理更像是貨幣市場基金或儲蓄帳戶，順帶一提，這些東西並不能用於交易，那麼它就是一個可以支付收益的工具。但這兩者長期以來都被美國政府非常謹慎地分開，因為將它們分開，才能讓美國金融機構進行放貸。因此，存款與放貸的原則，以及放貸推動小型企業、房貸、房屋貸款、汽車貸款等所有這些事情，都是非常重要的。And if it's a true storage mechanism and the proxy would be more like a money market fund or a savings account, which, by the way, aren't usable in transactions, then it's something that can pay a yield. But those two things have been very carefully separated by governments over long periods of time in the United States, because by separating them, it enables lending from U.S. financial institutions. And so the principle of deposits and lending, and lending powering small businesses, mortgages, home loans, car loans, all of those things. is very important.

19:10因此，這是一場非常重要的辯論，因為我們必須確保不要不小心造成這種程度的干擾，導致美國消費者無法再借到錢。請記住，穩定幣無法提供以信貸為導向的貸款。它們被設計成只能投資於美國國債，因為它們必須是無風險的。就其設計方式而言。因此，它們只能投資國債，這也意味著它們無法為實體經濟提供信貸。所以我們必須非常謹慎，確保不會以某種方式對實體經濟中的信貸造成干擾，因為最終這才是推動美國經濟發展的關鍵。And so this is an important debate because we've got to make sure that what we don't accidentally do is create this level of disruption that causes U.S. consumers to not be able to borrow money anymore. Remember, stablecoins can't make credit-oriented loans. They deliberately can only invest in U.S. Treasuries because they have to be risk-free. In terms of the way that they're conceived. So the fact that they are treasuries only means they can't provide credit to the real economy. So we're going to be very careful to make sure that we don't somehow create this disruption for credit into the real economy, which at the end of the day is the thing that powers the U.S. economy.

19:56未來五年：24/7 金融與 adoption 挑戰

19:56所以，我很好奇你對未來的看法。你剛剛提到了全天候 24/7 的商業活動。你怎麼想像這一切在五年後會如何發展呢？所以。So, I'm curious your perspective on the future. You talked about 24/7 commerce. How do you envision kind of this all transpiring five years from now? So.

20:14你知道，這裡有很多每天都在接觸和呼吸數位資產的人，我們每個人對於創新的確切步調以及事情將如何發展，都會有不同的看法。因此，對我們來說，我們其實並不是在試圖預測未來。我們真正想做的是積極投入於採用，並且認知到事情的發展方式隨時都可能改變。因此，策略的動態本質很重要。三年前，我非常相信人工智慧。我們三年前開始大力投資我們自己的人工智慧平台 Eliza。它連接到所有大型語言模型。但當時我就確信人工智慧會變得非常巨大且具有影響力。You know, we have many people here who live and breathe digital assets every day, and we can all have perspectives around the exact pace of the innovation and exactly how things will track. And so for us, we're not actually trying to predict the future. We're really just trying to lean in to the adoption, recognizing that exactly how things evolve can change. And so the dynamic nature of strategy, I was a big believer in AI three years ago. We started to invest significantly in our own AI platform, Eliza, three years ago. It's connected to all the large language models. But I certainly thought AI would be huge and impactful then.

20:54我原本沒想到我們今天竟然已經走到這個地步。我以為會花更長的時間才能達到這裡。擴展法則的表現非常出色，甚至可以說還在加速。如果我用同樣的類比來看數位資產，我會說很難精確掌握採用的速度，但你可以看出發展的方向。當現有金融系統在某些應用場景下顯得有點笨重、流動性較差、不是全天候運作、在帳本上的表現力也比較有限時，這些就是很好的應用案例。因此，將新的資產類型帶入金融服務產業，像是貸款在現有金融基礎設施下很笨重、不動產很笨重、實體商品也很笨重。I didn't think we would even be to where we are actually today. I thought it would take longer to get there. The scaling laws have held up incredibly well and arguably are even accelerating. If I take that same parallel for digital assets, I would say it's hard to pin the exact pace of adoption, but you can see the direction of travel. Where there are use cases where the current Financial systems a little clunky, less mobility, less 24/7, less richness of representation on a ledger. Those are great use cases. And so bringing new asset types into the financial services industry, loans are clunky, real estate's clunky in the current financial rails, physical commodities are clunky.

21:40像這樣的使用案例，可以說實際上會比單純將S&P 500股票代幣化更快帶來更多價值，雖然我完全支持股票代幣化，但它或許沒有解決同樣程度的難題。So use cases like that. Arguably, are actually going to provide more value more quickly than just tokenizing an S&P 500 equity, which I'm all for. I just, it doesn't solve maybe for the same degree of difficulty.

21:53那麼，如果那是第一代，也就是採用、複製，把那些運作良好或不良的東西帶進這個系統，那問題就是，第二代是什麼？所以，第二代。對我來說，是讓區塊鏈變得更有能力，能夠處理真正允許智慧合約以有趣方式並且大規模應用所需的吞吐量和豐富資訊。因此，企業債券，不只是把債券代幣化，而是要思考如何編碼契約，實際上讓企業信用的整體方案，比現在更加全面。Then, if that's Gen 1, which is adoption, replication, taking things that either work well or don't work well and bringing them into the system, the question is, what's Gen 2? So Gen 2. For me, is making the chains more capable so that they can handle the throughput and the richness of information that really allows the application of smart contracts in an interesting way and at scale. So corporate bonds, it's not about tokenizing the bond, it's about how do you encode the indenture and actually making the package of corporate credit. More comprehensive than it is today.

22:31那不是我們現在真的會做的事情，但那樣會為系統帶來大量的效率提升，可以說會增加信貸市場的流動性，並消除其中的一些低效率。而到了第三代，我可以想像把金融工具拆解成它們的組成部分。事實上，甚至連「什麼是股票、什麼是債券」這種哲學性的問題，這些東西都是歷史上建立起來的。但我認為你可以主張，這些東西的本質其實就是現金流以及條款和條件。如果你把現金流和條款條件拆開來看，你就可以重新組合出一些和現在有點不一樣的新產品。That's not something that we really do today, but that would create a lot of efficiency in the system, arguably increase liquidity in the credit market and take out some of the inefficiencies that are in there. And then Gen 3, I can imagine breaking down instruments into their component parts. And actually, even the philosophical question of what is an equity and what is a bond, those things are established through history. But I think you could make an argument that what they really are is cash flows and terms and conditions. And if you take cash flows and terms and conditions, you can reinvent new combinations of products which are a little different than today.

23:09你可以將人工智慧應用在這上面，結合代理型商務，並且在鏈上實現。支付貨幣也是其中一環。我認為這裡面有一個非常有趣的世界，但那還有一點距離。所以對我們來說，我們現在是從起步階段開始，我們與客戶合作，我們正在創新，而我認為未來會在這些方向上逐漸展開。You can apply AI to it, the intersection with agentic commerce, on-chain. Payment currencies. I think there's a very interesting world for all of that, but that's a little bit further away. So for us, we're starting, we're partnering with clients, we are innovating, and I think the future will then open up in those types of directions.

23:30技術、監管與 adoption 的挑戰

23:30我們這裡大概會看到什麼樣的時間表？你知道，我已經——What kind of timeline are we looking at here? You know, I've—

23:34我可以保證，對於這個問題的答案我一定會答錯，但我覺得這件事現在開始變得相關了。不過，這將會是一個五年、十年、十五年的旅程，對某些人來說會很令人沮喪，因為他們會希望進展更快。有些事情會進展得比較快，但我認為要完全應用這項技術，確實需要一段時間。這種世代性的技術轉變，真正被採用並廣泛滲透到金融體系中，通常都需要相當長的時間，即使在這個有人工智慧、發展迅速的世界裡也是如此。I will be guaranteed to be wrong on the answer to the question, but I feel that this is starting to be relevant today. But this will be a 5, 10, 15-year journey, which will be frustrating to some people because they'll want it to go quicker. Some things will go quicker, but I think the full application of that, it will take some real time. These generational shifts in technologies, real adoption and permeating more broadly through the financial system, they tend to take quite a long period of time, even in a world of AI and going quickly.

24:08那最大阻礙是技術、監管還是 adoption？So is it the technology, the regulatory backdrop, the adoption? What's the biggest hindrance?

24:15全部都是。在現今的數位資產領域，我認為全部都是。你知道，有些L1鏈，如果你去看，事實上，所有的L1鏈目前都還沒有真正具備我剛剛描述的跨多個世代所需的全部功能。它們需要投資。你知道，如果你去跟那些人談談，最終，Ethereum就是一個很好的例子，它是一條非常優秀的L1鏈，擁有巨大的發展動能。但他們需要投入大量資金，才能以能夠支援這些更進階應用案例的方式來擴展他們的鏈。All of them. In the case of digital assets today, I think it's all of them. You know, so some of the L1 chains, if you look at, in fact, all the L1 chains are not today really capable of doing all of the things that I described across the multi-generations. They require investment. You know, if you talk to the folks, you know, who ultimately, Ethereum, just as a great example of a great L1 chain that's got an enormous amount of traction. But they need to invest a significant amount of money in order to be able to build out their chain in the way that can support some of these more advanced use cases.

24:48現在還有其他L1鏈的創建者正在開發新的鏈。所以沒錯，技術確實需要持續演進。我們剛剛也談到了立法的背景。我們甚至還沒有把這些都完成。所以沒錯，這方面也必須以某種方式推進。然後，監管機構也需要做出努力，沒錯，既有的服務提供者、新的服務提供者，大家都必須積極參與，然後才是普及採用。所以這一切都是缺一不可的。因此，當我看待這件事時，這只是我誠實的評估。我認為這會需要一點時間，但這不應該阻止我們對於開始行動感到興奮。There are other creators of L1 chains who are working on new chains right now. So yes, the technology needs to evolve. We just talked about the legislative backdrop. We don't even have all of that done yet. So yes, that needs to happen in some way, shape, or form. Then yes, the regulators need to do work, and then yes, established providers, new providers, everybody needs to lean in, and then adoption. So it's all of the above. And so when I look at it, it just feels to me just an honest assessment. It's going to take a little while, but that shouldn't stop us from getting excited about getting going.

25:24沒錯，非常感謝 Robin Vince，BNY 執行長，今天的精彩分享。我對未來真的很期待！Absolutely. Well, thank you so much, Robin Vince, CEO of BNY. Wide-ranging conversation, and I'm very excited about the future. Yeah, me too. Thank you.