Winklevoss 雙胞胎與 Balaji：Zcash、隱私與未來金融革命

0:00Zcash 的時刻：從新加坡啟程

0:00大家知道嗎？去年在這場同樣的會議上，我剛抵達新加坡時，Zcash 大約只值 50、60 美元。我還特地發了一則推文，然後 Naval 也轉推了。他說，比特幣是對抗法幣的保險，而 Zcash 則是對抗比特幣的保險。這話相當有挑釁性。那時候就開啟了一連串的討論。現在我們又回到新加坡，所以壓力不小。我們就從簡單的問題開始吧。You know, last year at this same conference, just as I landed in Singapore, I think Zcash was around 50, 60 dollars. I posted a tweet about it and then Naval obviously retweeted it, saying that Bitcoin is insurance against fiat money and Zcash is insurance against Bitcoin. Pretty provocative. And that's when this whole streak started. And now we're back in Singapore, so no pressure. Let's start simple.

0:41Balaji，你最近說過一句話，我直接引用：「這是什麼？Zcash 還是共產主義？」你可以解釋一下嗎？當然可以。其實，共產主義本質上就是監控和沒收，兩者密不可分。二十世紀時，列寧和布爾什維克能夠沒收農場和土地，就是因為他們有所有農民和富人的名單。像是有兩頭牛的富農（kulaks）等等，他們可以派人挨家挨戶去查。後來共產黨還監控了所有人的電話，像 KGB 這些機構。Balaji, you recently said, and I quote: 'What is this, Zcash or communism?' Could you explain that? Of course. Well, communism was about both surveillance and confiscation, and those two went hand in hand. In the twentieth century, the way Lenin and the Bolsheviks could go and confiscate farms and land was by having a list of all the farmers, the rich men. Those who had two cows, the kulaks, etc. So they could send their men house to house, and obviously later the communists also tapped everyone's phones, the KGB, etc.

1:21那現在呢？這就像一個極權警察國家，用 AI 監控一切。如果 AI 是那個全視之眼（像 Sauron 的眼睛），那你就有 Zcash 這個盾牌。Zcash 提供零知識保護，因為 AI 能夠把任何一點資訊外洩都拼湊成一個前所未有的全貌。但 Zcash 就像一個盾牌，真正恢復了隱私，因為它本身就是零知識的金融交易，同時也推動了整個零知識領域的發展。未來所有數位東西最終都會被零知識技術保護。這就是為什麼我說，要嘛是 Zcash，要嘛是共產主義。And today, what is that? That's like a total police state. It's like surveilling everything with AI. And if AI is this panopticon, this eye of Sauron, well, you have this Zcash shield. It offers zero-knowledge, right? Because AI can synthesize even the smallest leak of information and put it all together into a picture nobody had before. But Zcash is the shield that really restores privacy because in itself it's zero-knowledge about financial transactions, but it's also helped push the whole zero-knowledge space. And so everything digital will eventually be protected by zero-knowledge. That's why it's Zcash or communism.

2:03Gemini 早期支持 Zcash 的洞見

2:03Tyler、Cameron，其實大家可能不知道，Gemini 當年是第一個上架 Zcash 的交易所，你們還是第一個支援 Zcash 隱私交易的交易所。那已經是很久以前的事了。雖然大家都很早進場，但你們尤其領先。你們當時看到了什麼？這個論點到現在有什麼演變？我們把 Zcash 看作加密版的比特幣，就像過去的網路是 HTTP，Zcash 就是 HTTPS。Zcash 是加密、私密的比特幣。所以比特幣的論點，像數位黃金，到了 Zcash 也依然成立。Zcash 是比特幣的分叉，總量固定 2100 萬枚。它既安全又加密。Tyler, Cameron, something people might not know about you is that Gemini was actually the first exchange to list Zcash at the time, and you were also the first to support Zcash shielded transactions. That was a long time ago. Everyone here was early, but you were particularly early. What did you see back then and how has the thesis evolved to today? We see Zcash as encrypted Bitcoin, just like the old web was HTTP. Zcash is HTTPS, so it's encrypted Bitcoin, private Bitcoin. Therefore, the Bitcoin thesis, like gold, holds with Zcash. Zcash is a fork of Bitcoin, so the supply is fixed at 21 million. It's simply secure and encrypted.

3:03我們正處於 AI 不斷侵蝕隱私的時代，所以隱私變得很重要，而 Zcash 就保障了這一點。我們是在 2018 年把 Zcash 上架到 Gemini 的。當時的敘事和現在一樣，都是在談隱私，只是那時 AI 還沒這麼進步。這些進展是幾年後才出現的。但即使在 2018 年，我們就已經理解到金融隱私的重要性，也知道比特幣區塊鏈其實非常公開。And we're in an era where AI is eroding privacy, so privacy is important and Zcash guarantees that. And we included Zcash in Gemini in 2018. And back then the narrative was the same as today: it was about privacy, but the advances in AI hadn't happened yet. Those advances came years later. But even in 2018, we understood the importance of financial privacy and how open the Bitcoin blockchain really is.

3:34Zcash 與比特幣的互補與差異

3:34我們可以再深入一點，因為有些人認為 Zcash 和比特幣是互補的，有些人覺得它們是對沖工具，也有人有不同看法。Blake，你怎麼看比特幣和 Zcash 能否共存？其實我有寫過一篇文章，說比特幣的透明性其實在某種程度上是一種特色。像薩爾瓦多總統 Bukele 公開了一個比特幣地址，任何人都可以查到那個地址有多少 BTC。相對地，如果今天有人拍影片說 Fort Knox 有多少黃金，因為有 AI，你未必會相信那裡真的有那麼多黃金。So let's dig a bit deeper, because some people think of Zcash and Bitcoin as complements. Some people see them as hedges, some people think... so pick your adjective. Blake, how do you think Bitcoin and Zcash coexist? Can they coexist? Yes, I actually have a post about this, but the transparency of Bitcoin is actually a feature in a sense. You know, when President Bukele of El Salvador published a Bitcoin address, anyone can verify how much BTC is in that address. By contrast, if someone today posted a video of how much gold is in Fort Knox, because of AI, you wouldn't necessarily believe there's that much gold in Fort Knox.

4:22我們已經進入一個後 AI、後加密的時代，數位黃金比實體黃金更容易遠端驗證、無需信任。在西方，尤其是國家信任崩潰時，比特幣會成為西方機構在後法幣、後 AI、後加密時代的儲備貨幣。但 Zcash 則是西方個人的貨幣，也就是說，這是人們真正會用來轉移、避開監控的工具。機構需要向很多人證明自己有償付能力，但個人則不需要。這是很根本的差異。加密貨幣和網路本來就把事情推向極端。比特幣現在完全公開、可追蹤，Zcash 則完全相反，至少在隱私池裡是完全私密、不可追蹤。And so we've reached a change in a post-AI and post-crypto era where digital gold is much easier to verify remotely and trustlessly than physical gold. So in the West, where trust is collapsing, especially in the state, I think Bitcoin becomes the reserve currency of Western institutions in the post-fiat, post-AI, and post-crypto era. But Zcash is the currency of Western individuals, meaning it's what people actually move and use to avoid surveillance. Western institutions need to prove their solvency to many people, but a Western individual doesn't need to do that. And that's a fundamental difference where, you know, crypto and the internet in general push things to extremes. So Bitcoin is now completely public and totally traceable, and Zcash is the opposite, it's completely, you know, private and untraceable, at least in the shielded pool.

5:22私密貨幣其實已經存在幾千年了。直到 30、40 年前，錢變成電子化，才變得這麼透明。所以我們其實是在回到錢本來的樣子，就是私密。現金有隱私，但它不是硬資產，因為它是國家發行的。比特幣是硬資產，因為它去中心化、不是國家貨幣，但它沒有隱私。Zcash 則把這個故事補齊，既是私密又是硬資產，因為它不是國家貨幣。這是一個很自然的演化。我認為，錢是一種已經演進了一萬年的技術，從貝殼、貴金屬、金本位紙幣、加密貨幣、比特幣到現在的 CBDC 現金。這一切都很必然。現金是中心化但私密，比特幣去中心化且公開，Zcash 則是去中心化且私密。Private money has been the norm for thousands of years. It wasn't until money became electronic about 30, 40 years ago that it became so transparent. So we're actually returning to what money always was, which is private. Cash has privacy, but it's not hard money because it's state money. Bitcoin is hard money because it's decentralized and not state money, but it doesn't have privacy. So Zcash completes the arc of that story by being private and hard money because it's not state money. So this is a natural evolution, and when I think about money, I see it as a technology that's been evolving for, say, ten thousand years. Shells, precious metals, metal-backed paper, crypto, Bitcoin, and now CBDC cash. So it feels very inevitable. So cash is centralized but private. Bitcoin is decentralized and public, Zcash is decentralized and private.

6:41Zcash ETF 與 Cypherpunk 的願景

6:41說得好，說得好。你們最近還宣布提交了 Zcash ETF 的申請，現在還有 Cypherpunk 這家數位隱私科技公司。可以跟我們聊聊這兩者怎麼結合？你們預期的結果是什麼？我們今天宣布已經提交了 Zcash ETF 的申請。13 年前我們也為比特幣提交過 ETF 申請，當時比特幣才 100 美元。三年後，現在輪到 Winklevoss 的 Zcash ETF。我們很興奮，只是想讓大家能夠接觸這個資產類別。有些人想在券商帳戶買 Zcash，因為他們沒辦法自己持有 Zcash 這個資產，但又想要隱私這個特性。隱私是一個正在減少、但在這個時代非常有價值的資產。Well said, well said. While you have the mic, you recently announced a filing for a Zcash ETF. Now you also have Cypherpunk, the digital privacy technology company. Why don't you tell us how those two fit together? What's the intended outcome? We announced today that we filed, or we filed today, for a Zcash ETF. Thirteen years ago we did the same for a Bitcoin ETF, and the price of Bitcoin, well, this was in 2003. The price of Bitcoin was 100 dollars. Three years later, now it's the sequel and we filed the Winklevoss Zcash ETF. We're excited about that and just want to give people access to this asset class. Some people want to buy Zcash in a brokerage account because they can't hold Zcash, the asset, but want exposure to privacy, which is an asset and is a declining asset and is a very valuable asset in these times.

7:57所以 Zcash ETF 就是我們讓你在券商帳戶裡買到 Zcash 曝險的工具。Cypherpunk 則是我們的數位隱私科技公司。我們持有很多 Zcash，佔了 Zcash 總量的 2%。我們也是全球最大的 Zcash 礦工。Cypherpunk（股票代號 Cyth）持有 Zcash，但最終我們是想推廣和促進隱私科技，以及 cypherpunk 宣言的價值和精神。So Zcash is our ETF vehicle to let you buy exposure to Zcash in a brokerage account. And then Cypherpunk or Cyth is our digital privacy technology company. We own a lot of Zcash. We own 2% of Zcash. We're also the largest Zcash miners in the world. Cypherpunk or Cyth is the stock ticker. It owns Z and nothing but Zcash. But ultimately, we want to promote and foster privacy technologies and the values and spirit of the cypherpunk manifesto.

8:29隱私、監管與加密戰爭

8:29其實你們真的有跟機構甚至政府合作，Balaji，你怎麼看隱私和監管環境的交集會怎麼發展？這是個好問題。就像剛剛 Tyler、Cameron 說的，2018 年我們在 Coinbase 上架了 Zcash，我還寫過一篇部落格，用 HTTPS 和 HTTP 的比喻。這其實是個很重要的先例。90 年代有所謂的加密戰爭，現在可以說我們正處於第三或第四次加密戰爭。90 年代時，加密技術（或說密碼學）被美國政府當成軍火、武器來管制，大家不能隨便用強加密，於是雙方拉鋸很久。最後密碼學家贏了，HTTPS 合法化了。You actually work with institutions and even governments, Balaji. How do you think this intersection between privacy and the regulatory landscape will play out? That's a good question. As you mentioned earlier, Tyler, Cameron mentioned that in 2018 we listed Zcash on Coinbase, and I think I wrote a blog post with the HTTPS and HTTP analogy, which we had also talked about. And I really think it's a very important precedent, because in the 1990s there was something called the crypto wars. And you could actually argue we're in the third or fourth crypto war now. In the 90s, basically, encryption, or rather cryptography, was considered munitions, like a weapon, by the US government. People weren't supposed to have access to strong cryptography, so there was a big tug of war over it. Eventually, the cryptographers won and HTTPS became legal.

9:50到了 2010 年代初期，美國政府網站都強制要用 HTTPS。也就是說，13 年內從禁止變成強制。換句話說，政府當初是錯的嗎？沒錯，政府完全改變了立場。只要某樣東西從被禁止變成被強制，通常代表有很大的需求壓力。你想把它關在盒子裡，但如果它跑出來，往往會改變整個社會。有些東西就像程式的開關一樣，像是明亮模式或暗黑模式，會改變整個網站的感覺。加密技術是否合法，這會改變一切。像槍枝是否合法、言論自由這種東西，不一定都是好事，因為大量槍枝也可能帶來壞處。但這些都是很重要的開關，會徹底改變局勢。Then, in the early 2010s, you had a site called HTTPS... say.gov, which really said every government website must use HTTPS, right? Which basically every website does today. So the point is that in about 13 years it went from being prohibited to being mandatory, right? So, wait, does that mean the government was wrong about that? Yes, exactly. The government just completely changed its mind, right? Yes, and whenever something goes from being prohibited to being mandatory or law, when something has to be prohibited, it usually means there's a lot of pressure for it, right? Trying to keep it in a box. That doesn't necessarily mean it's good, it just means there's a lot of demand, right? You try to keep it in a box and if it gets out of the box, it can often change all of society like that, right? And there are certain things that are almost like binary switches at the top of a program. You know, like light mode or dark mode that change the whole feel of a site, for example, right? Is cryptography legal or not? That changes everything. Or like, are firearms legal or not? Free speech. These kinds of things aren't always necessarily good. Having, you know, tons of firearms can be bad in certain ways. Third point is that they're very important switches at the top that change things.

11:14所以我們現在面臨的就是加密技術的合法性。我認為，真正私密的金錢其實是一種底層科技，它不像 AI 那麼顯眼。AI 也是底層科技，但同時也是用戶看得到的科技，你會在螢幕上看到很炫的畫面。但真正私密的金錢如果能大規模、隨意地傳送到任何地方，會打破很多二十世紀國家建立的假設。所以我認為，另一方面，個人也會非常需要這種隱私，需求會很大。總結來說，我認為最後會變成合法，政府會轉向像 Dropbox 或 Google 那種訂閱模式。這個我等下可以再解釋，就是所謂的訂閱型國家。So we have the legality of cryptography. And my point of view is that truly private money is, you know, the funny thing is it's a background technology, it's not as visible in some ways as AI, right? Because AI is also a background technology, but it's also a user-facing technology. You see amazing visuals on your screen, right? But truly private money at scale, in arbitrary amounts, teleporting it anywhere, breaks a lot of assumptions that twentieth-century states have. And that's why I think, on the other hand, there will also be a huge demand for individuals to protect their privacy. In summary, I think where things end up is that it's legal and governments really move to a Dropbox or Google-style model. I should explain that, the subscription state. All right, just to digress a bit.

12:11訂閱國家與數位稅收未來

12:11基本上，如果你想想 Dropbox、Google 這些公司怎麼運作，他們靠全球訂閱收入賺的錢比大多數國家的稅收還多。你應該要有一個訂閱制，付錢就能用，不付錢數位服務就被切斷。只要你付錢，服務就恢復。Google 等公司就是這樣賺大錢，完全不用全球各地設稅務員，也不用查帳，就是每月收你幾美元。未來我認為會走向這種模式，所謂的訂閱國家，每個國家都只收你一個月兩千、三千，或任何一個固定金額，這就是你的費用。他們不用再去追查其他東西，只收一個月費。最終我覺得 2040 年左右會變成這樣。當然，這中間會有很多動盪。你有什麼想補充的嗎？Basically, if you think about how Dropbox, Google, and many of these companies work, they collect more than most governments in tax revenue through global subscriptions. That is, you should have a subscription, and you pay that subscription, and if you don't pay, then your digital services are cut off. And if you pay, then it works again, right? Google and others make huge amounts of money this way and don't have a single tax collector anywhere in the world. They don't have to audit anyone. You literally just pay so many dollars a month. So that's where things will eventually go, in my opinion. You're going to have the subscription state where each country just charges you, say, two thousand, three thousand, whatever amount as a flat fee per month, and that's just your fee, right? And they don't have to go after everything else, just a flat fee. That's ultimately where I think things will end up by around 2040. There will be a lot of turmoil between now and then. Anything to add?

13:14隱私、主權與政府監控

13:14回到剛剛的問題，怎麼看待隱私和私人貨幣，特別是在全球各國政府與過度監管的對比下，尤其如果像 AOC 當總統那樣的世界。隱私就是政府權力的邊界，也是你個人自由與主權的起點，這是很重要的界線。美國憲法第四修正案，甚至第二修正案都有保障。密碼學就像是和平、非暴力的第二修正案，保護你、你的空間和隱私，抵擋政府入侵。政府總是往更多監控、踐踏權利、更多強制和暴力的方向走。密碼學是數學方式去阻止這些，真正捍衛美國憲法的價值與精神。所以隱私是人權。我相信有些人會反對，但我希望這個權利最後會勝出。So, to reiterate the general question, how do you see privacy and private money specifically contrasting with certain governments around the world and regulatory excess, especially in a world where AOC is president? I see privacy as the frontier where government stops and your personal freedom and sovereignty begin. So it's a really important boundary. We have it enshrined in the Fourth Amendment and, to some extent, the Second Amendment. Cryptography is a peaceful, non-violent Second Amendment that protects you, your space, and your privacy, and checks government invasion. The government tends to go in one direction: more surveillance, trampling more of your rights, more coercion, and more violence. So this is a mathematical way to stop that, suppress it, and really defend the values and the American spirit of our Constitution. Therefore, privacy is a human right. Yes, I think some people will definitely fight against it, but in the end, I hope that right prevails.

14:42Zcash 的新時刻與技術演進

14:42我相信現場很多人都聽過 Zcash，但其實它是一個很早期的幣，現在又重新受到關注，像是有種復興的感覺。那到底是什麼改變了？是 AI 嗎？還是量子威脅？還是技術現在終於能規模化？其實是多種因素。第一，十年前技術就能運作，但像手機端的 ZK 證明等需要時間成熟，還有像 setup ceremony 這些東西，密碼學本身也要演進。第二，易用性也要提升，所有東西都要能在手機上跑，Apple 也要讓這些東西更容易運作，隱私要被重視，監管也要進步。這些技術、社會、地緣政治等多重因素都要到位。現在我覺得時機到了，人才也進來這個生態。Zcash 有個很特別的「失敗模式」，雖然不該說是失敗，因為它其實很成功。大多數加密專案如果失敗，是因為太資本主義、太會行銷，像 pump and dump 那種。但 Zcash 長期反而太學術、太 academic，像生技產業那樣，不像多數加密專案那麼商業化。Zcash 某些層面甚至不夠商業，但這也好，因為它真的能運作。很多人長期支持，不只是為了賺錢，現在它也變成很好的貨幣。I'm sure many in the audience have heard of Zcash, but I'd say, relatively speaking, it's a very old coin that's become new again, and maybe there's a kind of renaissance behind it. So what exactly changed? Is it AI? Is it quantum fears? Is it the fact that the technology now scales, or some other combination? It's several things. First, the technology worked ten years ago, but it took time for proofs to work on mobile, for example, to eliminate things like the setup ceremony, and cryptography had to evolve. Second, usability had to evolve, everything had to work on mobile, Apple had to make things easier, privacy had to be listed, and a lot of crypto regulations had to advance, etc. There were many things that were both technical and social, even geopolitical. And now I think its moment has arrived. Also, talent had to come into this ecosystem, etc. Zcash had an interesting failure mode, though I shouldn't call it failure because it's been successful. Most crypto projects, if they fail, it's because they become too capitalist, do too much marketing, and do the bourgeois caliph formation, you know? They go up and down, like pump and dump. And Zcash for a long time had the opposite problem, being too academic, right? Too .edu, something I had seen in biotech, where it wasn't like most things in crypto because they're too commercial. Zcash almost wasn't commercial enough in some ways. It didn't have the, you know, it was so pure, right? But that's good because it really works. People were there for more than just money for a long time, and so now it's, you know, very good money.

16:50Zcash、比特幣與隱私解決方案

16:50我們當時也必須先讓比特幣跑起來，算是一種概念驗證。Satoshi 有談到隱私和 ZK 證明，但他不知道怎麼在比特幣上實作。其實很多支撐 Zcash 的密碼學技術都比比特幣還早出現。現在技術成熟、AI 來了、量子時代也快到了，一切都像在推動 Zcash 的時刻到來。我不覺得這幾年前會發生，現在才是時機。也許我們該請現場舉手，有多少人持有 Zcash？雖然很隱私，但大概跟 2013 年比特幣在聖荷西大會時差不多。Zcash 現在開始有動能，但還很早期。用 Yogi Berra 的話說，這就像 Zcash 的 déjà vu。如果你有時光機回到 2013 年，你會怎麼想、怎麼操作？我想大多數人會說早點、多買比特幣。現在你有這個機會在 Zcash 上，因為它有比特幣所有特性，還解決了隱私這個大問題。I think we also had to make Bitcoin work as a proof of concept, in a way. Satoshi talks about privacy and ZK proofs, but he just didn't know how to implement it in Bitcoin. But a lot of the technology or cryptography that underpins Zcash predates Bitcoin. So the technology arrived, AI arrived, quantum is coming. Everything seems to be conspiring to make this the moment for Zcash. I don't think it would have happened years ago. Today is the moment. Maybe we should ask for a show of hands. How many people in the audience own Zcash? It's very private, but it's about the same numbers as Bitcoin in 2013, when we gave the keynote at that San Jose conference for Bitcoin. And I think Zcash is starting to gain momentum, but it's still very early. And to use the words of the great Yogi Berra, it's déjà vu all over again with Zcash. And if you had a time machine and went back to 2013, how would you think differently? And how would you operate? I think most would say they would have bought more Bitcoin and bought it earlier. And now you have that opportunity with Zcash. It has all the properties of Bitcoin and solved this very important privacy problem.

18:292049 年的 ZK 與 KYC 顛覆

18:29你們講得太好了，我很羨慕。那我來問，假設我們和整個生態圈的努力都成功了，像 SOTL、Visual Wallet 等等都做出來了，你們覺得 10 年後會怎樣？假設是 2049 年，距今 23 年。23 年前 Facebook 剛創立，Twitter 還沒出現，Gmail 也還沒出現。23 年很長，但 ZK 會無所不在，像 ZKYC。KYC 的前提是政府要保護你免於犯罪，所以要你上傳護照等資料。但現在這種做法的成本效益很差，因為這些資料庫一定會被駭，像我們看到很多公司、甚至五角大廈都被駭過，這些還只是大家知道的案例。KYC 本來是要保護你，實際上卻讓你更危險。政府不該強制收集自己無法保護的資料，因為這些資料被駭就是在製造入侵、身分盜用等問題。未來如果有正當公共服務，可以用 CTKYC，例如你的護照有晶片，可以證明你不是北韓人，是被允許使用服務的國籍，手機 NFC 讀取後產生 ZK 證明給伺服器。這會變成必要，因為 AI 讓偽造掃描、截圖變得容易，所有沒晶片的東西都會被視為假的。ZK 可以只上傳零知識證明。我們需要有遠見的國家率先推動這個，像愛沙尼亞、哈薩克、新加坡、薩爾瓦多、阿聯等，從 ZKYC 開始，消滅 honeypot 資料庫。未來甚至會有 https.co.gov 這種網站，強制限制 honeypot，否則就是在收集自己無法保護的資料。You guys are very good at talking about this. I'm envious. Let me ask, let's fast forward. Let's say our efforts and those of everyone in the ecosystem, from SOTL to Visual Wallet and all these other things, work. What do you expect it to be in, say, ten years? Let's assume it's the year 2049, just for us. 2049. Well, 2049, that's how many years? 23 years from now. 23 years ago, I think Facebook was in its first year, Twitter didn't exist, and so on, Gmail didn't exist yet. 23 years is a long time, but you know, ZK will be there for everything, for some things. You'll see ZKYC. So this is important, by the way. The whole premise behind KYC is, oh, the government protects you from some criminals or something. So you upload your passport and other things. But almost certainly today, the cost-benefit of uploading those things and creating this honeypot with millions and millions of, you know, passports and so on, in the AI era, it's guaranteed to be hacked at some point, right? And what we saw with, you know, various companies that had their stuff and the Pentagon hacked over and over. And those are just the hacks people know about, right? So the whole KYC model that's supposedly meant to protect is actually putting you in danger, right? And in general, no government should be able to force the collection of something it can't secure. If they're collecting things that are hacked in the system, they're causing home invasions, they're causing identity theft, deterministically, because there's a probability they'll be hacked, right? So now, instead, if they have some legitimate public service, you do CTKYC. For example, you have your passport, it has a chip, it can prove you're not North Korean or whatever, right? That you're one of the X nationalities allowed to use the service, and you can have your phone's NFC reader interact with it and issue a ZK proof to the server, right? And that's really going to be necessary for everything, because AI makes it possible to fake scans and screenshots. So everything will be like your passport with a chip. It would have to be that way because digital can be a handshake and authenticate, and physical can be forged. So that means, because of AI, everything without a chip is fake. With ZK, you can just upload the zero-knowledge proof, right? So we need a smart, forward-looking country to start with this, whether it's Estonia, Kazakhstan, maybe Singapore, El Salvador, UAE, a place like that to start with ZKYC and eliminate the honeypots. And then there will be something like https.co.gov, where it becomes mandatory to limit honeypots, because otherwise, you know, you'll be collecting data you can't secure.

21:35KYC 資安風險與未來驗證模式

21:35我無法想像 KYC 持續存在的未來，因為它只會讓壞人更有利，因為終究會有某個供應商的資料庫被駭。駭客就知道你住哪、你有多少錢，然後攻擊你、綁架你、甚至割手指，這些現在在歐洲、特別是法國都已經發生。新加坡、杜拜這種地方比較安全，適合來參加加密會議。用零知識證明來驗證身份而不用交出全部資料，這趨勢已經不可逆。KYC（Know Your Customer）已經變成 Kill Your Customer，這是個悲哀的現實。其實我們應該做一些 AI 影片來呈現這些瘋狂現象，讓大家看到這些監管的影響，因為這些影響都很遙遠。當駭客事件發生時，問題在於你當下根本沒感覺，不會像手機震動或有痛覺感應器。通常是過了幾年才被人利用。最慘的是那些地址被駭的人，根本沒辦法搬家。這是很大的問題。一般來說你可以用郵件轉寄服務，你知道那是什麼嗎？郵件轉寄服務、實體郵件轉寄服務。I can't imagine that future with KYC continuing because it only empowers bad actors, as eventually some provider with some database of your information is hacked. And then the bad guys know where you live, know your balance, and attack you, kidnap you, cut your fingers, and this is happening right now across Europe, in France in particular. So that's a good place, it's a good place. You can come to crypto conferences in Singapore and Dubai, those are good. That's where the thieves are afraid, but then using zero-knowledge to authenticate without giving up all your information seems inevitable. No, your customer. Know your customer is becoming kill your customer. It's a sad reality. In fact, you know, we should do some AI videos about that, like showing these crazy things, or maybe I can do the AI videos about this, right? Like, we have to show the impact of these crazy regulations because the impact is distant. You know, when a hack happens, this is one of the problems. You don't feel anything at the time. It's not like your phone vibrates or there's a pain sensor. What happens is it's used by someone years later. And the worst is for these poor people, for example, who have their addresses hacked, they can't move. That's a big problem because then, you know, right? In general, you can use mail forwarding services. Do you know what those are? Forwarders? Physical mail forwarders. Or like a mail forwarding service.

23:32隱私、去中心化與真名危機

23:32有些事情你可以透過代理或 VPN 處理，但如果是實體包裹就不行。這只是個小建議。另外，也可以用密碼學來驗證 AI，確保你知道對方是誰。AI 現在已經厲害到你根本不知道對面是誰，但如果有密碼學驗證，就能確定對方身份。這兩種技術其實是相輔相成的。For certain things, you can send them to those places, it's like a proxy or a VPN, but for physical packages, right? Just a good tip. Also, using cryptography to authenticate AI and know who you're talking to. It's getting so good that you don't know who's on the other side, say, on a Zoom. But if it's cryptographically authenticated, verified, then cryptography authenticates the AI. So these two technologies go hand in hand.

24:06順帶一提，筆電其實比大多數硬體錢包還要好用。為什麼呢？首先，筆電的介面你每天都在用，很熟悉，但硬體錢包只偶爾用到。再來，硬體錢包會讓人一看就知道你有加密貨幣，但筆電不會。這有點像是安全性來自於隱蔽性。市面上沒有加密貨幣的筆電比有加密貨幣的多一千倍，所以你帶著筆電過安檢也不會被注意到，不像硬體錢包一看就知道裡面有加密貨幣。By the way, on that topic, laptops are better hardware wallets than most hardware wallets. Why is that? Well, first, the interface is familiar because you use it every day, while the hardware wallet you only use once in a while. Second, a hardware wallet communicates to someone that you have crypto, but a laptop doesn't, right? So it's like security by obscurity in this sense. There are like a thousand times more laptops without crypto than with crypto, so people can take it through airport security or whatever and nobody notices, unlike a hardware wallet, which instantly says there's crypto there.

24:41第三，筆電的耐用性更高，因為是以數十億台的規模生產，不會有什麼奇怪的 LED 故障或電池沒電等問題。第四，你可以直接用指令列操作，如果錢包軟體過時或出問題也能自己處理。總之，理由很多，雖然有點離題，但這是個重要的想法。Third, they're more robust because they're manufactured at the scale of billions and don't have some weird LED issue or battery loss or something like that. Fourth, you have a full command line on them, so you can, if necessary, start something or if the wallet software is outdated or something, no problem. So for many reasons, anyway, I digressed, but it's an important thought.

25:01比特幣、隱私與去中心化的真正意義

25:01這裡有個關於隱私為什麼重要的思考實驗：如果 Satoshi 當初必須公開身份，比特幣還會誕生嗎？也許不會。這其實很危險，他可能會被政府追殺。沒有隱私，我們可能根本看不到這項創新。現在問題來了，他能花自己的比特幣嗎？不能，因為沒有隱私。隱私之所以超級重要有兩個原因：一是我們可能根本看不到比特幣的發明，二是比特幣的發明人自己也沒辦法用他的比特幣，因為交易不夠隱私。So here's a thought experiment about why privacy is important. Would Bitcoin have launched if Satoshi had to reveal his identity? Maybe not. It's a very dangerous idea, he could have been hunted by governments, and so maybe we would never have seen that innovation without privacy. Now, can he spend his Bitcoin? He can't because it's not private. There are two reasons why privacy is super important. Maybe we would never have seen the invention of Bitcoin, and the inventor of Bitcoin himself can't use his bitcoins because the movement isn't private.

25:44其實我花了很久才想清楚這一點：Satoshi 的匿名其實也是一種去中心化。你想想，他如果用本名，那就是國家給的社會安全號，這種名字可以被查到一堆中央資料庫的資訊，像是駕照、住址、各種紀錄等。但 Satoshi Nakamoto 這個去中心化的名字，沒有連結到那些中央資料庫，也沒有其他 20 個紀錄。這讓攻擊者很難針對個人下手，只能針對這個名字，沒辦法影響到他的家人、住址等。比特幣網路本身也是去中心化的。Well, actually, on this topic, it took me a long time to articulate this. But Satoshi's anonymity was actually another form of decentralization in the following way. If you think about whoever his official name was, that was his state social security name, right? Which is actually something where, given that name, you can look it up in a centralized database and pull all these metadata. Here's a driver's license, here's your address, here are all these other things, blah, blah, blah. Whereas a decentralized name, Satoshi Nakamoto, isn't linked to the centralized database with another 20 associated records. It's just out here, right? It's decentralized. So what he did was make it hard for people to attack the man or the ball. They couldn't really attack him because they could only attack this name, they couldn't attack anything the name was connected to, like his family, his loved ones, his address, etc. And also the Bitcoin network itself, of course, was decentralized.

26:51這就像是隱形戰機一樣，現代科技雖然在改變這一切，但理論上你沒被雷達鎖定就不會被導彈擊中。記者們沒有 Satoshi 的真名，就像沒被雷達鎖定一樣，導彈打不到目標。這裡有本很棒的科幻小說叫 True Names，作者是 Bernard Binge。你有真名，也有 NIM（暱稱），這就是你連上網路的方式。如果政府發現你的 NIM 跟真名的連結，他們就會找上門來。And so, in this way, journalists didn't have—it's like stealth, you know, like with stealth where at least, I mean, modern technology is changing this, but in theory you don't get a radar lock, right? You don't have radar lock, you can't fire missiles, right? So journalists didn't have a name for Satoshi, right? They didn't have radar lock, right? So the missiles just fly, so they couldn't, they didn't have radar lock, nothing, right? So there's a great science fiction book about this. Called True Names by... what's his name? Bernard Binge, yeah. Bernard Binge, and you have your real name, but also your NIM or your alias, and that's how you connect to the internet. And if the government discovers the connection between your NIM, your real name, they'll come to your house and kill you.

27:44未來的隱私與真名追蹤

27:44這真的很重要。我認為，如果你要預測 2049 年的世界，doxxing（公開個人資料）會變成一種重罪，因為真名會直接連到住址，然後他們可以直接派無人機來攻擊。這話題有點敏感，像是在敵對領域，先搶走你的錢，再做其他事。And this is really important. You know, the important thing about this is that, I think if you want a prediction for 2049, doxxing will become a kind of capital crime, precisely because the real name gives you the address and then they can send the drones and just press a button, boom, right? And you know, I'm in a territory that's... a hostile territory, right? When it does... Yeah, yeah, exactly. It's dry A or C, right? That's, you know, it's like the good versus... well, they'll take all your money, money comes first. But anyway, so...

28:31你剛才提到 true names 的追蹤問題，NIM 跟政府官方名字的關聯。如果官方名字連到 NIM，問題就大了。我認為英文名字、真名、還有國家名字，這些資訊有時太多，有時又太少。為什麼說太少？因為如果我只知道你叫 Mert，還要問你的 email、PayPal 等等，才能傳東西給你。如果你有像 ENS 或 SNS 這種名字，我就能直接傳加密訊息、付款、甚至上傳或下載檔案。這其實把很多鏈整合在一個名字下。Regarding, you were saying something else about the tracking of true names, true names, the NIM versus your official government name and how if your official name is connected to your NIM. On this topic, I think your name in English, your real name, but also your state name, at the same time gives too much information and too little. Why too little? Well, if I say, okay, your name is Mert, or you know, I have to ask: what's your email? What's your PayPal? What's this? What's here? I have to ask for all those other chains to send other things. If you haven't said something like an ENS or SNS name, like the Ethereum Name Service or Solana Name Service, in theory, now I can send you an encrypted message, a payment, even upload a file to you, download files from you, etc. So it actually bundles a lot of those other chains into one.

29:29但真名也會洩漏太多資訊，因為別人可以查到你在 500 個資料庫的紀錄。相反地，如果你用像 fubar99e 這種暱稱，或 satoshinakamoto.eth，這些都沒有其他資料連結。你只會揭露你想揭露的資訊。下一步可能會是像 ZNS 這種系統，具備多層選擇性揭露功能，用不同的檢視金鑰來控制。這是很重要的點。目前我們只有完全公開或完全私密，也許未來會有像洋蔥一樣多層的檢視權限，例如會計師能看、友善政府能看等等。On the other hand, a real name also gives too much information because people can link it to 500 different databases, can find all sorts of properties about you, etc. Whereas if you have a pseudonym like fubar99e or whatever, that pseudonym isn't linked to anything else, or satoshinakamoto.eth isn't associated with anything else. So there aren't another 500 databases it's connected to. So you only reveal what you intend to reveal and nothing else, right? And I think the next step will be something like ZNS, which has all those good properties, but with various levels of selective disclosure via viewing keys. That's another important point, by the way. Right now we have something completely private or completely public, but maybe you want to have, with viewing keys, different onion-like layers, like okay. Your accountant can see it, or this friendly government can see it, or something along those lines.

30:33Zcash、政治捐款與隱私抗爭

30:33這裡資訊量很大，真是個好主意。說真的，我都忘了剛才要講什麼。其實我現在最喜歡的案例就是 Roman Storm。自由給 Roman Storm，大家可以到他網站捐款，大多數都是用 Zcash，這就是私密貨幣最完美的應用場景——給那些對抗真正罪犯（也就是禁止開源的人）的政治敏感捐款。Yeah, there's a lot of information there. Wow. Okay. That's a good idea. Well, honestly, I don't even remember what I was going to say. Oh, actually, one of my favorite use cases now that we're talking about Satoshi is Roman Storm. Freedom for Roman Storm, freedom for... Free Roman Storm and send your donations to his website, most are in Zcash and that's the perfect use case for private money, politically sensitive donations for people fighting the real criminals, who are those who ban open source, right? So that's a use case I especially like.

31:16AI 的議題也很有趣。你要不要幫大家介紹一下 Roman Storm 的案子？好，Roman Storm 是 Tornado Cash 的共同作者之一，這是 Ethereum 上的零知識隱私協議。他的歐洲開發者或共同創辦人被歐洲警方逮捕，據說美國公民也因寫隱私軟體被美國逮捕。這開創了因寫隱私軟體而被逮捕的先例。奇怪的是，兩年過去了，案件還沒撤銷，其他案子都撤了，他還在等審判。他基本上是政治犯，Vitalik 等人都公開聲援他。很諷刺的是，現在你可以隨便發 shitcoin，但寫隱私程式卻成了罪行。The AI topic is also very interesting. Should you describe the Roman Storm case for those who don't know what it's about? Go ahead. Well, okay. Roman Storm is one of the co-authors of Tornado Cash, which is zero-knowledge money on Ethereum, and his European developer or co-founder, something like that, was arrested in Europe and I think a presumed US citizen was arrested in the US just for the crime of writing privacy software. And this set a literal precedent by arresting someone for writing privacy software. And the strange thing is, two years into the new administration, it still hasn't been dismissed, while other cases have, so he's still waiting for trial or something like that. So he's someone who, you know, in his case should, in my opinion and in the opinion of many others. Vitalik and others have posted about the Roman Storm case; he's basically a political prisoner. It's fascinating that you can do any shitcoin in the world, but writing privacy code is the crime here.

32:26Zcash 的現況與最大誤解

32:26我們只剩一分半，來聊點可以發在 X（Twitter）的內容。你覺得 Zcash 最大的誤解是什麼？我認為大家以為都聽過 Zcash 了。其實現在 Zcash 的市值大約 250 億美元，還只是比特幣的 2%，所以還很早期。雖然我們這些整天泡在 X 的人很熟，但其實很多人根本沒聽過或只剛認識 Zcash。你們推廣得很棒，Balaji 也是。現在感覺就像 2013 年的比特幣。Balaji 是我們 2013 年認識比特幣時最早遇到的人之一。如果你能穿越回比特幣剛起步的時候，Zcash 現在就是那個階段。知道或持有的人還不多。很有趣的是，我們當年一起押注比特幣，現在又一起押注 Zcash，感覺就像樂團又重組了。Alright, we have a minute and a half left, maybe let's talk about something you can post on Twitter. What do you think is the most common misconception about Zcash? I just think people have already heard of it. Actually, I think the current market cap of Zcash is about $25 billion, so it's still, I think, 2% the size of Bitcoin. So it's still very early. Even though those of us on X all day know a lot about Zcash, I think a lot of people still haven't really heard of it or barely. They're just getting to know it, but you're doing a great job spreading the message. And Balaji too. Yeah, it feels like Bitcoin in 2013. Balaji was one of the first people we met in Bitcoin 2013. So, if you could time travel and be at the start of Bitcoin, that's what Zcash is like now. Not many people know about it or own it. It's actually funny, basically, but you and I made big bets on the same things at the same time. We're doing it again, which is very cool. Yeah, it's like, oh, you know? The band is back. Yeah, the band is back, exactly. You know?

33:48你剛問 Zcash 最大的誤解，我覺得很多人說它只是另一個短暫流行的東西，是這一輪牛市的炒作。但你知道那句話嗎？「一夜成名其實花了十年。」這正是 Zcash 的寫照。這是十年來持續努力才有現在的成果。如果你把去年漲幅平均到過去十年，其實一直在穩定成長。雖然成長速度不算快，但未來幾年可能就不會那麼慢了。好，我們就到這裡，謝謝大家收聽，也謝謝 Trillions。You asked what I think is maybe the biggest misconception about Zcash. People say, oh, it's another passing fad. It's another hyped thing in the cycle. You know that saying about an overnight success that took ten years? That's really what Zcash is. You know? It's ten years of steady effort that's now taking off. Right, if you spread out the gains from the last year over the last ten years since its inception, it's actually been growing. Still at a pretty moderate pace. Yeah, but maybe, maybe it won't be so moderate in the years to come. Alright, alright. Let's end here. Thank you all for listening and for Trillions. Thanks.