代幣化資產如何提高利用率？Dinari、FTSE Russell、WisdomTree、RedStone 對談

0:00開場與來賓介紹

0:00大家早安，歡迎來到 TOKEN2049 第二天！大家今天精神還好嗎？給我點反應吧！這才是開啟一天的方式。今天的第一場座談會主題很有趣，來賓也非常精彩。我們要聊的是代幣化實體資產（RWA），這一年來規模幾乎成長三倍，鏈上已經超過 380 億美元。國庫券和貨幣市場基金大約佔了 80%，但發行只是第一步，真正的關鍵在於實用性：像是用於借貸市場的抵押品、永續合約（如 Hyperliquid、Lighter）的保證金，以及槓桿收益策略的基礎。問題在於流動性，因為鏈上市場 24/7 運作、即時結算，但基金贖回卻還是要 T+1 到 365 天不等。今天我們邀請到三位專家來聊這些議題。先來自我介紹一下，Vin，你先開始吧！All right. Hello everyone, Token 2049, second day. How are you feeling? Is there energy? Give me something. Hey, that's how we start the day. The first panel, I hope it's going to be an interesting one for you because we have a very interesting topic to talk about and fantastic guests. So tokenized real-world assets have nearly tripled in a year to over $38 billion on-chain. Treasuries and money market funds make up roughly 80% of that, but issuance was just step one, the easy one. The real unlock is utility: tokenized funds used as collateral in lending markets, margin for perpetuals such as Hyperliquid or Lighter, and building blocks for leverage yield strategies. The catch is liquidity. On-chain markets run 24/7 and settle instantly, with fund redemptions still taking anywhere from T1 to 365 days. So today I have three fantastic panelists that are going to talk about all those aspects. But maybe let's start with a round of intros. Vin, why don't you start?

1:13謝謝主持人介紹。大家好，我是 Vin Tran，負責 WisdomTree OnChain 的業務發展。我們是全球資產管理公司，管理規模約 1700 億美元，鏈上有 12 億美元的代幣化基金，橫跨 8 條公鏈、15 檔產品。很高興今天能來這裡分享。Thanks for that awesome intro. Hi, everyone. My name is Vin Tran. I lead business development for WisdomTree OnChain. We're a global asset manager. We have about 170 billion. Globally, on-chain we have 1.2 billion in tokenized funds. We have 15 products across eight public blockchains, and yeah, very excited to be here today.

1:37我是 Kristen Mierzwa，負責 FTSE Russell 的數位資產。我們是倫敦證券交易所集團旗下公司，核心業務是指數編製，全球有數百萬個指數，涵蓋加密資產、商品、固定收益、股票、外匯等各種資產類別，只要你想得到的資產，我們都在編指數。Hi, I'm Kristen Mierzwa, and I'm head of digital assets for FTSE Russell. We're a London stock exchange company. Our core business is running indices. We have millions of indices, including indices that cover crypto assets, commodities, fixed income, equity, FX, anything that's out there, any asset class, we're indexing it.

2:01我是 Anna Wroblewska，Dinari 的商務長。我們是一家代幣化平台，率先推動了美國 SEC 現在稱為『託管型代幣化』的模式，也就是說，代幣本身就等同於證券，所有投資證券的權利、利益和保障都會直接體現在代幣上。我們的業務橫跨 90 個國家，主要和受監管的分銷商合作，像是新型銀行、金融科技、券商，最近也剛在美國啟動新業務。I'm Anna Wroblewska. I am the Chief Business Officer of Denari. We're a tokenization platform. We pioneered what the SEC of the U.S. now refers to as the custodial model of tokenization, in which the token is the equivalent of the security. So the idea is that all the rights, benefits, protections that you get of investing in securities is passed into the token. We have an international business that spans 90 countries. We work primarily with regulated distributors like neobanks, fintechs, brokerages, and we just launched our U.S. business a couple months ago.

2:38我是 Marcin Kazmierczak，RedStone 共同創辦人。我們是數位資產基礎設施供應商，提供區塊鏈預言機、價格資訊、以及和 Credora 合作的鏈上風險評級，是目前市場上最大的鏈上評級能力，也有 RedStone Settle 這個產品，支援代幣化基金的鏈上結算。我們合作夥伴包括 BlackRock、Apollo、Securitize、Hamilton Lane，還有今天在場的各位。And I'm Marcin Kazmierczak, co-founder of RedStone. We are a premier infrastructure provider for digital assets, including free capabilities, blockchain oracles, and price feeds. Risk intelligence with Credora risk ratings, the largest ratings on-chain capability in the market, and on-chain settlement for tokenized funds via RedStone Settle. We work with BlackRock, Apollo, Securitize, Hamilton Lane, and all the panelists over here as well.

3:08RWA 流動性與合規困境

3:08既然是早上，就從最年輕的來賓 Vin 開始吧！我們來聊聊流動性錯配的問題。鏈上借貸市場有 500 億美元存款，但 RWA 作為抵押品的比例卻很小。這是因為合規、定價，還是因為基金贖回要幾天、但借貸清算只要幾秒，兩者時間差太大？你怎麼看？So, as it's early in the morning, let's start with probably the youngest panelist over here, Vin. Let's go back to school. Like early in the morning, you get the question: the liquidity mismatch, that's a big topic. On-chain lending holds $50 billion in deposits, yet tokenized RWAs are a tiny share of the collateral. Is the blocker compliance, pricing, or the fact that the fund redeeming in days can't back a loan that liquidates in seconds? Tell us, what are the blockers?

3:41這問題很棒，其實答案是全部都有。以 WisdomTree 來說，我們所有 15 檔產品都是 SEC 監管的資產，所以合規是很大的門檻，這也是為什麼這類資產還沒能在 DeFi 普及。我們跟很多大型 DeFi 協議合作，像 Aave、Morpho，他們的資產池大多是無許可的資產，但我們這種鏈上有許可的資產，合規就變成阻礙流動性的關鍵。不過我們也積極想解決，像是用鏈上授權、改善 KYC 流程等，這些都能讓流動性更順暢。另一個問題是流動性分散，跨鏈、跨資產、跨協議都很分散，這讓 DeFi 池的組合性變得困難，尤其是有監管的資產。我們也在努力找解方，像是即時清算等，之後可以再深入聊。Yeah, that's a really good question. The easy answer is that it's a mix of all of the above. So at WisdomTree, we have regulated assets out of the SEC, all 15 products. So compliance, I think, is a big feature and why. This isn't readily available in DeFi. So when we are talking with, you know, some of the largest DeFi protocols like Aave, like Morpho, a lot of the assets that they have in their pools and vaults are permissionless. So when we're thinking about integrating with permissioned assets on-chain, compliance becomes a key feature in preventing that, but something that we are actively trying to solve. Whether through on-chain ATO stations, whether through just better KYC flows, that's something that can make liquidity flow a lot better on-chain. And I think the second part of that answer and question is liquidity, and we can talk about this later, but right now there's a fragmentation of liquidity in the markets across blockchains, across assets, across protocols even. So that makes composability within these DeFi pools, much more difficult, especially when you're talking about regulated assets. We're working on solutions ourselves, but something that we can talk about later when it comes to instant liquidations.

4:53週末清算與跨市場流動性

4:53雖然有很多挑戰，但最重要的是我們持續在進步。RedStone 也和夥伴合作，像是解決週末市場的鏈上流動性。Anna，想請問你，當 RWA 抵押品在週六凌晨三點跌破清算線時，誰會買？價格怎麼決定？速度有多快？週末的代幣化股票清算路徑會是什麼樣子？Brilliant. So there are challenges, but the most important is that we keep on progress with all of them. With RedStone, we work with partners to also... So for some of them, including the on-chain liquidity, which is a big topic for weekend markets. So, Anna, maybe then moving to you on the liquidation side. So when real-world asset collateral falls below threshold at 3 a.m. on Saturday, who buys it? What's the price, and how fast can it happen? What does a credible liquidation path look like for tokenized stocks in the week and over the weekend? Tell us more.

5:30以股票來說，傳統市場是 24/5 運作。我們大部分訂單都會透過子公司券商導到傳統市場，因為流動性最好的地方就是最佳執行地點，能買賣的選擇也最多。但週末沒有傳統市場流動性，所以我們和 Flow Traders 合作，打造一個流動性樞紐，連結不同分銷夥伴和多條區塊鏈，目標是建立傳統市場和鏈上市場之間的橋樑，解決流動性分散的問題。不過，凌晨三點清算還是很難，因為你需要有人能即時完成交易流程，技術和金融操作都要到位。更有趣的是，非 DeFi 原生的使用者會怎麼反應？如果你是 Web2 客戶，突然週六凌晨被清算，會接受嗎？這跟傳統保證金機制很不一樣。我覺得未來會有很多產品創新，像現在有些借貸協議會在必要時關閉市場，避免極端情況。我也很好奇，當越來越多非 DeFi 使用者進來時，市場會怎麼變化。So when you're looking at stocks in particular, obviously the traditional markets are running on a 24/5 basis. We actually route most of our order flow into the traditional markets via a subsidiary broker-dealer. For the reason which Vinny alluded to a little bit, that you want to route transactions to wherever the most liquidity exists, right? That's how you can help to provide better execution, where you can, you know, have a wider variety of things to buy and sell. So the weekends are a really interesting challenge for this because there is no traditional side liquidity for stocks on weekends. We partnered with Flow Traders to create essentially a hub for liquidity across our many distribution partners and all the different blockchain networks that they function on, with this idea that you need to kind of create this bridge liquidity between the traditional market and on-chain markets, which, you know, again, Vin, as you pointed out, there's a lot of liquidity fragmentation. And so our thinking was, how do you defragment that, create—Some kind of a hub where it can start from. But that doesn't get really to the heart of your question, which is, you know, how do you handle a 3AM liquidation? So you need to have liquidity. You need to have the capability for someone to, you know, actually go through the whole transaction cycle in a pretty seamless way. I think the next step of that is going to be, how are customers who are not DeFi native going to react to it? So having the technology and the financial kind of operational capability to deal with it is one part. One thing that I find really interesting about questions like this is if you're a normal Web2 customer, maybe you have access to Products and services that were developed on-chain and are now being brought to you in a traditional setting. Are you going to accept something that is going to liquidate you at three in the morning on a Saturday without any warning? And, I mean, that's a very different behavior to how much of margin works, right, in the traditional side. And so I think we're going to see some interesting, potentially some really interesting product innovations there as I mean, we already see this, right? Certain markets just close. Like lending protocols are making it easier to close markets when they need to. But I'm curious what happens as we get more non-deFi native users kind of using these things.

7:51這一切都是雙面刃。一方面大家很興奮可以週末交易，但另一方面，誰想週六還要盯盤？也許金融業的工作型態會因此改變。RedStone Settle 這個產品，就是把像 Flow Traders、Galaxy 這類流動性提供者和代幣化資產串接起來，變成一個撮合平台，讓 Dinari、WisdomTree、Ondo、Centrifuge 這些公司不用自己搞流動性，而是用一個聚合模組解決。Kristen，我很好奇，FTSE Russell 和倫敦證交所怎麼看待把指數帶到永續合約市場、鏈上平台，尤其是週末交易這一塊？Yeah, so everything is a double-edged sword. On one side, everyone is excited, yes, you can trade over the weekend, but on the other side, well, you want to sleep on Saturday without having a day at work, right? But then you go back to the same kind of like a schedule like a doctor. Maybe just the nature of a business in finance is going to change then. With RedStone Settle, the product that I was describing, we connect liquidity providers on one side, like Flow Traders, Galaxy, and others with large books, and tokenize assets to allow this matchmaking platform for all of those assets so that companies like Dinari, WisdomTree, Ondo, Centrifuge don't have to do it themselves, but rather can have it in one aggregated module. But when we are talking about 24/7, Kristin, I'm extremely curious, how is FTX and London Stock Exchange looking at bringing your indices to, for example, perpetual markets and on-chain venues, especially when it comes to weekend trading?

8:52指數、永續合約與即時計價

8:52目前大多數指數供應商都是在該市場開盤時即時計算指數，比如美國市場時段。當然，盤後還是有流動性，像是盤後交易、期貨等，只要連結到同一個指數就能持續運作。作為指數供應商，我們也希望能做到 24/7 的指數計算，為未來的產品（像永續合約、各種代幣化產品）提供基準。很有趣的是，不同的永續合約平台計算即時價格的方法都不一樣，有的自己算，有的用第三方預言機（像 RedStone），有的直接找指數供應商。我覺得最重要的是要讓計算方法透明，因為自動清算會根據指數值觸發，機構世界裡一個基點的差異都很重要，所以一定要讓方法公開透明，大家才能拿到公平價格。Yeah, so right now most index providers calculate real-time indices during the market that that particular index is running in, so U.S. market hours. And of course there's liquidity after hours. We know there's aftermarket trading, there's futures. If they're, you know, connected to that same index, you've got that market going. And us as an index provider, of course, we want to prepare our entire suite. And make sure that we have 24/7 calculations on our indices going for products of the future, meaning perpetuals and all of these tokenized products that are coming out. You're going to need a benchmark for it. It's really interesting to me that if you talk to different perp providers, they all have different models on how they're calculating real time. So some of them do it themselves. Some of them work with a third-party oracle like a RedStone, and some of them are asking the actual index provider to do it. What we think is really important, though, is that you understand that methodology because, of course, auto liquidations happen depending on what that index value is. And right now, I think the perpetual market has just been accepting those calculations and not questioning them and wondering, like, hey, if I was a fraction of a basis point different, would that have made a difference in terms of me being auto-liquidated? And I think we all understand in an institutional world, a fraction of a basis point really, really matters. So we want to make sure that when there's a real-time calculation happening that's linked to our intellectual property, that it's very transparent, the methodology on that. That's the most important thing. There's lots of ways to calculate something, so we're not saying, like, we have the answer and the correct way of doing it, but we're saying, please, you should understand what that is and make sure it's transparent and you're getting a fair price.

10:44這真的很有趣，市場正朝這方向發展。RedStone 也支援 24/7 的計算與轉換，確保價格最貼近市場真實狀況，並提供給 Hyperliquid、Lighter、Robinhood 等多個平台。現場問一下，有沒有人現在手上有持有 RWA？請舉手。大約 15% 的觀眾有持有，希望明年能變成 60% 以上。要做到這點，『即時贖回』和『隨時出場』一定要普及，因為大家都希望像比特幣一樣，隨時能賣出，RWA 也應該要做到。That's really fascinating, especially that this is where the market is going. And as RedStone has mentioned, we support those kind of like 24/7 calculation and transformation to ensure that it's the closest to the market truth as it's expanding, delivering that to Hyperliquid, Lighter, Robinhood, and many, many other venues. I would like to ask the audience and leave you up a little bit. Who is a holder of tokenized real-world asset today? Please raise your hand. Okay, I can see, let's call it 15% of the audience is holding. I hope in a year it's going to be 60% or more. But for that to happen, instant redemptions and exit is something that have to be widespread because people expect that they can exit Bitcoin position immediately, and they should have the same for real-world assets.

11:36即時贖回與現金管理新可能

11:36Vin，WisdomTree 怎麼看待讓貨幣市場基金和其他產品做到即時贖回？這對閒置現金管理、支付流程和改善有什麼幫助？So, Vin, how is WisdomTree thinking about enabling instant redemptions for money market funds and any of the other of your products? And maybe can you tell us what it can bring to management of idle cash and payment flow and optimization?

11:51謝謝兩位帶出 24/7 的話題。我們和 SEC 密切合作，針對貨幣市場基金做了很多創新，現在有一檔美國發行的代幣化產品，是唯一獲得『豁免性質』的基金，可以用 1 美元淨值隨時交易。這讓 WisdomTree（作為券商）能全年 24/7 提供近乎即時的流動性。這不只適合買進持有，還能應用在現金管理、收益管理等多種場景。24/7 讓資金流、支付、匯款等需求都能隨時處理，不用再擔心週末流動性問題。未來我們會持續推動，希望能讓更多人持有 RWA。Yeah, absolutely. Thank you both for teeing up the 24/7 conversation. We've done a lot of innovative work, working closely with the SEC on our money market fund. We have a tokenized product now issued out of the U.S., and we're currently the only product with something called exemptive relief. This allows the fund to be traded at the dollar NAV, so allowing us, WisdomTree, as our broker-dealer, to step in and provide 24/7 near-instant liquidity for the money market fund year-round. And what this really enables is use cases beyond just buy and hold. A lot of the existing clients that we have need cash management, need yield management. But to your point, Marcin, the idea of 24/7 enables flows and payments and remittances and all these niche use cases where you don't have to hold idle cash anymore. You can hold a yield-generating asset all year round and not have to worry about weekend liquidity, to Anna's point. So yeah, we've done a lot of work on that. We're really excited to start rolling that out. And hopefully, to your point, more RWA holders will, you know, arise from this new set of on-chain tokenized funds.

13:01那即時贖回有金額上限嗎？還是沒有限制？And for those instant redemptions, is there a limit, like a specific amount that you can redeem, or is it unlimited?

13:08目前還是有上限，由我們自己設定，用自家資金池支撐。不過未來如果這套創新能推廣到其他產品、協議，像 Aave 這類 DeFi 協議也能成為流動性提供者，讓 24/7 流動性更普及。這種模式是資產專屬的，未來任何白名單持有人都能參與流動性供應。So unfortunately, there is a limit. Right now, that limit is set by us. We're pulling that with our own balance sheet. But going back to the first question around DeFi pools and fragmented liquidity, I think what becomes exciting is once this innovation can be applied to other products, to other protocols. Not only does WisdomTree have the ability to step in as a liquidity provider, any whitelisted holder can do so because this innovation is asset-specific. So in this case, if we're out of liquidity, perhaps we can tap into a DeFi protocol like Aave to help support liquidity 24/7 for our clients.

14:09亞洲 RWA 成長與雙向市場

14:09這週我們 RedStone 發布了最完整的代幣化股票報告，涵蓋 Robinhood、Ondo、Dinari、Securitize 等多種模式。最大成長其實發生在亞洲市場。Anna，你們觀察到為什麼大家要把美股代幣化？主要買家是美國還是海外？Maybe going back to tokenized stocks a little bit, this week on Tuesday, as RedStone, we published the most comprehensive tokenized stocks report covering Robinhood, Ondo, Dinari, Securitize, and many other tokenized stocks models. One of the big findings over there was that the biggest growth is seen in Asia markets, actually. So can you tell us a little bit more why people are actually tokenizing stocks from the U.S., and what is the distribution play over here? Do you see in Dinari most of the actual traders and buyers coming from the U.S. or offshore markets?

14:52我們自己的資料也看到類似趨勢。其實很多終端使用者甚至不知道自己買的是代幣化產品，因為這是新型銀行或金融科技用來讓使用者接觸美國資本市場的基礎設施。全球對美國市場的需求很大，這只是故事的第一章。現在重點是『取得門票』，很多國家開設傳統券商帳戶很麻煩又貴，所以有經濟和監管套利的動機。未來會看到更多雙向市場，比如美國人想買海外 IPO 或股票也很難，這會慢慢打開。接下來會有更多 DeFi 原生的產品，像借貸、永續合約等，Robinhood 就是很好的例子，他們會根據使用者需求推新產品。未來三到五年，資產管理領域會有更多創新，像是直接指數型產品、多資產組合、超個人化投資組合，這些都靠這種技術實現，創新空間無限大。We see largely the same in our own data in terms of regional... Kind of prowess, if you will, regional adoption. We do function on a little bit of a different premise because many of our end customers are not actually even aware that this is a tokenized product. It's a different type of infrastructure that a neobank or, again, a fintech could provide to their users in order to access U.S. capital markets. I think what we are seeing is an immense amount of pent-up demand for access to those markets. And, you know, this is sort of chapter one of a book that I expect to be quite long. But I think the current story right now is access, right? So, you know, non-U.S. customers, and in many places in the world, it's still actually very complicated to set up a traditional brokerage account, it might take a really long time, it might be really expensive. So there's, you know, there's this kind of economic aspect to it, and then there's, you know, frankly, in some cases there's a regulatory arbitrage aspect to it. I think longer term, you will see growth in, call it, you know, more mature markets or where it's easier to get a brokerage account in a traditional setting because of the things that you can do, right? So. Access is chapter one. I think chapter two starts to become bidirectional access. You know, if I'm sitting in the U.S., I have a very hard time accessing IPOs in other countries or, you know, in some cases, like the stocks that I want from other countries. So I think you're going to start to see more bidirectional access, and then you're going to start to see more interesting products. So a lot of the DeFi-native stuff that we see right now, borrow, lend, perps. And so on. You know, people, I think, increasingly want that stuff. Robinhood's user base is a great example of this. You know, they release products that they know their customers are going to want. But there's a whole universe of customers besides those who are kind of more fluent in these technologies who I think are also going to be ready for them. And then you get to what I think is some of the most interesting stuff that's going to happen over like three, five, eight, ten years, which is in the asset management sector. So, you know, this access piece is just right now, but being able to create and scalably distribute direct index type products, multi-asset products, being able to hyper-personalized portfolios at scale. I mean, this is all enabled by this type of technology, and I think the sky is the limit for how much innovation we're going to see there.

17:26合規、KYC 與鏈上身分

17:26謝謝 Anna。Kristen，想請你分享一下機構端最關心的合規和 AML（反洗錢）問題。RedStone 這幾年也看到市場從 DeFi 野蠻生長到現在逐漸機構化，傳統金融的規則也慢慢導入。FTSE Russell 怎麼看 AML、制裁名單等議題？有什麼解決方案？Thank you very much, Anna. Christine, changing gears a bit towards institutions as—We chat with those financial players. Naturally, compliance and AML checks is like a big, big topic. We've been operating over six years as RedStone, and we see that we went from DeFi Wild West in 2020, 2022 to right now being properly institutionalized and bringing how it works in traditional finance. Can you tell us a bit more, like how is Footsie looking at the AML checks and sanctions, and what solutions you have to offer?

18:00這場座談很有趣，因為我們有資產管理公司、代幣化平台、預言機和資料供應商，大家都會碰到合規、KYC、AML、制裁名單等問題。要打造機構級生態系，必須受監管、知道客戶是誰。倫敦證交所有個叫 World-Check 的產品，做身分、KYC、AML。我們常被問能不能把這些認證做成可代幣化的憑證，讓 Dinari、RedStone 等都能用，大家一起串接，讓 KYC 認證更通用、流動性更好。只要有全球認可的認證，資產流通就更容易，流動性也會提升。Yeah, and I think this is an interesting panel because we've got an asset manager, a tokenization platform, an oracle, and a data provider. And where we all cross paths is in terms of compliance, KYC, AML, sanction lists. It's really important. We're—You know, we're trying to build an institutional ecosystem, and that has to be regulated, and you have to know who your clients are. The London Stock Exchange has a property called World-Check, and they do identity, KYC, AML. And we've been approached by many people asking us, Hey, we love your product. Is there a way you could tokenize those attestations so that Then can use them. Denari can use them. We can match up with RedStone's Sanctions Oracle and bring all this data together so that you can start having, back to the original question, you can have a bit more liquidity with these tokenized assets because you guys have to be responsible for the KYC of anyone who's buying your token. But if you have that attestation that's globally recognized and approved by everyone, that might make it a bit more portable for someone to move around your asset and really get that liquidity that we want to see.

19:09RedStone 也有制裁預言機，會聚合全球制裁名單，每次機構交易前都會檢查錢包有沒有被列黑名單，有的話就擋掉。下一步是把 World-Check 和其他 KYC 認證串進來，確保金融機構只跟他們信任的對象互動。Brilliant. So this is also the part that we try to support on the Sanction Oracles, which is a product that aggregates all of the sanction lists from all around the world. And before a transaction is executed with an institutional player, it is cross-checked whether a specific wallet is blacklisted. And if it is so, then the transaction is not executed; it's dodged. And the next step is bringing the second part of the market, integrating World-Check and other KYC verified institutional players to ensure that those Financial institutions are operating only within the realm that they are comfortable with.

19:48RWA 安全性與鏈上風險評級

19:48Vin，過去 18 個月加密圈有很多駭客事件，像 Bybit、Bitget、Celldao 等。使用者該怎麼看待 RWA 的安全性？有可能錢包裡的貨幣市場基金被偷走嗎？Now, Vin, hacks and exploits in crypto has been a big, big topic over the past 18 months, including Bybit, Bitget, Celldao. How should users look at tokenized real-world assets when it comes to any kind of exploits? Is it possible to, for example, steal your money market fund from a wallet? Like, how does it work in practice?

20:06其實不太可能。大家對 DeFi 風險很敏感，WisdomTree 反而把 NFT 拿來做 KYC 和合規工具。機構和散戶都用自己的錢包來申請白名單 NFT，這樣我們就能快速（或接近即時）讓使用者通過身分驗證，開始交易。這種設計讓使用者之間可以直接互動，不用每次都回到資產管理公司，流動性也更好。因為這些身分機制，RWA 基本上不會被駭客直接盜走，因為你必須通過正規流程和身分驗證，這點短期內不會改變。It's not. So obviously there's a lot of scares when it comes to DeFi, and at WisdomTree, we've placed in—we actually have brought back NFTs. Have you guys heard of that? I'm sure the crowd has, but we've brought them back as a KYC and compliance tool. So for us, when we onboard institutions, when we onboard retail, They come to us with their own wallet infrastructure, and we whitelist via an NFT. And, Kristen, to your point, what this enables and what our work together with Worldcoin and all these compliance tools enable is really broadening that reach so that we can onboard users instantly, or near instant. I can't say instant; my compliance team wouldn't like that, but near instantly to get access to these identity tools so that—And to your point, people can start transacting with each other without having to go back to the asset manager, which I think is a very powerful use case. So, going back to your question, that provides more access to the products, but it enables better liquidity. And at the same time, because of these tools, you can't really hack an RWA that is Permission in that way. Someone can't come in and take our tokenized money market fund or our tokenized equity fund because you have to come in through the right systems, through the right identity frameworks, so that we can work with you. And that's not going to change anytime soon.

21:27這也是 RWA 很大的價值，大家常說加密資產容易被駭，但 RWA 有完整的身分和合規機制，即使鏈上出事，發行機構還有工具可以防止資產被盜。Credora 也有鏈上風險評級，幫使用者判斷各種資產（像貨幣市場基金、私募信貸等）的風險，從 D 到 A 分級，讓大家可以更安心配置。So this is, I believe, one of the big value propositions of tokenized real-world assets people don't talk about when you deal with crypto. Then naturally there is this risk of being hacked, being, like, exploited. But here, if you want to have, like, this assurance that even if something bad happens on-chain, the actual institutions that are issuing those assets have the tooling to prevent that from going outside and being even exploited more. On the Credora side, with the risk ratings, we also support users to decide which allocations they are more comfortable with, giving a rating between D to A across money market funds, private credit, and other products that generate yield on-chain.

22:07未來展望：RWA 哪個領域最有潛力？

22:07Anna，你覺得未來一年，代幣化股票或整個 RWA 產業，哪個領域最有潛力？Now, let's maybe talk a little bit about the future, like where you see the market expanding. Anna, which part of tokenized stocks and this whole industry of tokenized assets do you believe is going to be the most prominent in the next year or so?

22:23要回答這題，先要知道『代幣化股票』其實是很大的類別，背後有很多不同技術。像 Ondo、xStocks 是合成型代幣，Dinari 是託管型，Securitize 則是發行人贊助型，每種模式在市場上定位都不同，各有優缺點。從我們的角度，最大機會在基礎設施層，尤其是資產管理。未來大家用股票市場時，背後都會碰到區塊鏈，但使用者根本不會意識到，就像每天用手機但不知道原理一樣。現在使用者還是偏加密原生，未來會越來越普及，我們也努力推動這個轉變。So I think, in order to answer that, it's important to recognize that tokenized stocks is a very big category that really has a bunch of different technologies behind it, right? So this—This category of tokenized stocks includes synthetic tokens like Ondo xStocks. It includes custodial tokens like Denarii, and it includes what are called issuer-sponsored tokens, which is, you know, what Securitize has done, for example. Each of these fits into different places in the market, and they each have their own pros and cons, right? So, you know, when we're looking at it from where we're sitting, What I see as the real opportunity is on the infrastructure side. So I talked a little bit about asset management. I think there's a lot of really interesting things that can happen there. But I think where we're going to end up is in a place where everybody that interacts with the stock market is going to, in some way, be interacting with a blockchain and not ever being aware of it. I mean. The example I always use is, like, I have no idea how my phone works, but I use it every day and I love it. And I think until it breaks, right, then you need to understand what's wrong there. But I think we are getting to that point, and I do think the relative weights of these different types of products, when it comes to tokenized stocks, will shift because right now you have a very crypto-native audience for these things. That's going to change, and it's our, you know, great effort to make sure that it changes.

23:52穩定幣指數與風險評級

23:52Kristen，想請你聊聊全球穩定幣的指數規劃，有沒有擴展計畫？怎麼挑選要納入哪些產品？And Kristin, maybe also a bit more about indices, like how you feel about stablecoins globally. Do you have, like, any plans expanding on that front? And how do you select the actual products that are going to be underpinning those?

24:06我們現在有一些很有趣的專案，像是美國以外的客戶很想要原生有收益的穩定幣，我們的資料庫裡有大約 95 種。如果要做成指數，怎麼加權？可以平均分配，但我們想做更進階的風險調整加權，根據收益和風險評級（像 Credora 提供的）來決定比重。這樣可以評估每種穩定幣的抵押品和風險，甚至連包裝層和區塊鏈層都能評級。亞洲和拉美對這種收益型穩定幣需求很大。即使像 USDC 這種也曾經脫鉤過，大家要記得穩定幣不一定永遠穩定。Yeah, we're working on a couple of projects right now that I think are really interesting. We've got clients outside the U.S. that are looking for stablecoin yield, like natively yielding stablecoins. We've got about 95 in our universe. But what's interesting is if you were trying to build an index and pull that together, how do you weight it? You could just equal weight them. However, what we'd like to do is something a little bit more. Complicated, where we look at that yield and do a risk-adjusted weight depending on the yield, and what would be that factor would be working with someone who has a ratings project. Like Cordora, and you can actually rate stablecoins looking at how are they collateralized, what kind of risk are you taking on in that particular stablecoin. But I think what's really interesting with what you guys are doing is that second layer and being able to actually look at the wrapper and the blockchain layer and put a rating on that as well. We're getting a lot of demand for those types of baskets because everybody's always looking for yield. Again, outside the U.S., so here in Asia and Latin America, we're seeing a lot of demand for that. Yeah, like even with the USDC depeg that we've seen when Silicon Valley Bank went down, stablecoins are not always stable. We have to remember about it.

25:37未來 18 個月 RWA 成長預測

25:37Vin，你認為未來 18 個月哪一類 RWA 成長最快？As we are getting to the end of the panel, maybe some final thoughts and questions. Vin, which category of tokenized real-world assets do you believe is going to grow the fastest in the next 18 months? Where is your bet?

25:46我不能在台上下注，但當然希望是 WisdomTree 的產品（笑）。我們做代幣化是延續 ETF 創新精神，把產品帶到鏈上，服務原生加密使用者，也看到越來越多傳統金融玩家進場。我們會持續擴展產品線，讓更多資產配置和策略能直接鏈上實現。未來大家用 WisdomTree 產品時，根本不會意識到背後是區塊鏈，支付流程也會自動串接，這才是最令人興奮的地方。I don't know if I could make a bet on stage, but I would love it to be WisdomTree's products. Look, we've done tokenization, and the reason we've gone down this path is really a continuation of our heritage. We were financial innovators when it came to ETFs, and we see tokenization as a natural continuation of that, building on-chain products for native crypto-native clients, but to everyone's point here. We're seeing more TradFi players come to market, and we're going to keep building for that, right? Meeting clients where they are. So hopefully with WisdomTree, our product suite will grow. We have 15 products today. We're always looking at expanding that suite to meet new asset allocation models, new strategies that can help provide access to our clients directly on chain. And to Anna's point, I think as we see a more abstracted view of crypto, and we don't have to talk about this anymore, it just works. You're going to be transacting WisdomTree funds and you won't even know. You're going to have payment processing flows that is empowered by WisdomTree and you won't know. And I think that's where it gets really exciting.

26:48Kristen，未來 18 個月你最期待什麼？有沒有什麼擔憂？Christine, what excites you the most and maybe what you are the most afraid about in the next 18 months?

26:53我一直說，未來會有更多『無聊』的資產類別被代幣化。像英國政府明年就要把國債（gilts）代幣化，這很重要，因為英國過去對加密很保守，現在政府願意把國債上鏈，代表真的有需求和應用。這是很大的訊號。I always say this, I think it's going to continue to be some of the more boring asset classes that are going to be tokenized, but—This never comes up that the UK government is actually tokenizing gilts, so that should be live next year. And I think that's a really big deal that I think the UK has been a little more conservative for all things crypto, but they're leaning into this, and we should all take that as a big indicator that if the government wants to tokenize their treasuries, that they know there's a real use case for it and demand. So it's coming. I think it'll be very interesting.

27:28Anna，預測一下 2027 年底 RWA 市值會到多少？Anna, quick one. What's the market cap of tokenized real-world assets by the end of 2027, so in over a year?

27:36我希望能到數千億美元，一旦採用加速，應該很快就會破兆。也許明年底還不到，但我相信很快就會看到兆美元規模。So, it would, I would like to see it in the hundreds of billions. I think we can, once... Once that adoption starts moving up very quickly, I think we're easily going to see it in the trillions. Maybe not at the end of next year, but girl can dream.

27:53我自己很樂觀，明年就會破兆！今天的座談到這邊，謝謝大家，請給我們來賓熱烈掌聲！I'm a big believer next year we are going to hit a trillion dollars already. And with that, I'm going to finish that fantastic panel. Thank you very much for listening, and give our panelists a round of applause.