機構金融上鏈大解密：Chainlink、Ripple、FalconX、Nasdaq高層現場對談

0:00機構金融與數位資產生態系融合

0:00大家好，很高興今天在這裡。我是來自Nasdaq的Roland Chai，負責數位流動性網路與數位資產。今天很榮幸能和Andrew、Josh、Michael一起討論機構金融如何上鏈。首先想請大家聊聊，現在數位資產的生態系發展到什麼階段？機構、散戶、不同資產類別之間，是各自獨立還是逐漸融合？Okay. Hello, everyone. I'm delighted to be here. My name is Roland Chai from Nasdaq. I head digital liquidity networks, digital assets at Nasdaq, and it's great to be here with Andrew, Josh, and Michael. We're here to talk about how institutional finance moves on chain. So getting right into it, I'm going to just throw it out there. How do we view the evolving digital landscape at the moment? And maybe talk a bit about, are there separate ecosystems, institutional, retail, and different asset classes? How would you guys view the interconnectivity of those ecosystems. Is it one big ecosystem, or is it all converging together? Throw it open.

0:53我認為我們正在見證這個生態系統的融合，這真的很令人興奮。很多人一開始是crypto degen、crypto native，現在連華爾街和銀行都進來了，這是很棒的現象。資料顯示，過去一年，代幣化資產（不含穩定幣）規模已經來到約400億美元，年成長近300%；如果看兩年前，增幅超過2000%。未來三、四年，像Morgan Stanley、Citi、Standard Chartered等大銀行都預測代幣化資產市值將達到數兆美元。這個趨勢比我們想像中還快，RWA正快速上鏈。Yeah, I'll say we are seeing the convergence happen in real time, which is really exciting. I'm sure a lot of people in this room, you started as a crypto degen, crypto native, and now Wall Street and banks are involved in this space, and I think it's a wonderful thing to see. And we're seeing rapid growth. Just looking at some of the data in the last year, we've seen tokenized assets. Right now we're about 40 billion, excluding stablecoins, increase of almost 300% in a year. If you look back two years, it's over 2,000%. And there's been rapid growth, but if you look forward just three, four more years, some of the largest banks in the world are predicting the market caps of tokenized assets of two trillion. So Morgan Stanley said as low-case, Citi six trillion, Standard Chartered four trillion. So we're seeing this convergence of real-world assets coming on-chain, and it's happening quickly and a whole lot faster than I think any of us could have imagined.

1:47三大類資產與金融基礎建設

1:47我很同意剛剛的觀點，但我認為這裡有三個層次：crypto native資產、RWA（現實世界資產）、以及金融基礎建設。這三者其實處於不同的採用曲線階段。以crypto native產品來說，已經有深度流動性、良好的託管、可以抵押借貸，這些都很成熟，適合納入更大的投資組合。RWA則是成長最快的領域，但我們要謹慎，不能什麼都tokenize，應該先從能帶來營運效率的資產開始，例如政府公債、美元存款、貨幣市場基金等。BIS最近的報告也指出，這些是未來代幣化經濟的基石。I think, just to jump on the back of that, I agree for what it's worth, but I think there's three kind of pieces to this. There's crypto native assets, RWA, and the financial infrastructure. And I think we need to be careful to put those all in a single bucket because I think there are three different layers, and they're at different phases in the adoption curve, right? So unpacking those a little bit, if you look at crypto native products, kind of meets the criteria already. There's liquid deep order books. There's, you know, good custody around it. There's the ability to, you know, post those and lend assets with healthy haircuts. And so I think those are ripe to be adopted into bigger and broader investment portfolios. RWA probably the area for the biggest growth. But I think the one thing we need to be careful there is, you know, that tokenize everything and start with tokenizing assets that add operational efficiencies. And so things like government bonds, U.S. Treasuries, JGBs, money market funds, and deposits. BIS report came out, like they're increasingly referring to that as the building blocks for the tokenized economy going forward.

2:57最後在金融基礎建設這一塊，現在可以看到大型機構開始採用穩定幣。BIS有個Project Agora，全球約40家銀行在研究代幣化存款。雖然這三個層次進展速度不同，但整體方向是一致的，都在往上鏈發展。And then I'd say finally on the financial infrastructure side, you're starting to see stablecoins be adopted by these, you know, the larger firms. BIS came out with Project Agora. It's about 40 different banks looking at tokenized deposits. And so again, they all need to come. Yeah, they're very different phases, but moving generally in the right direction.

3:19RWA交易量與機構參與現況

3:19回顧一年前，RWA在crypto圈的討論其實很少，當時在crypto native平台上的RWA交易量幾乎是零。現在你可以看到大約30億美元的tokenized股票，還有每天20到30億美元的商品、股票指數、個股永續合約交易量。雖然這些數字和傳統市場相比還很小，但crypto社群已經開始意識到，這些產品和創新正在創造真正的價值，讓加密產業不再只是炒幣，而是有更多實用性和價值創造。Yeah, just to take stock of where we are today, like if we think back a year ago when we were on this stage, there wasn't really that much discussion around RWA and crypto. The approximate volume of all the activity on RWA a year ago on crypto-native venues was zero, right? So. Like now you're seeing maybe three trillion of, or three billion of tokenized stocks. You're seeing maybe 20 to 30 billion dollars a day of perp volume on commodities, broad-based equity indices, single-name stocks. And yet those numbers are still very small compared to the actual volume that's trading in traditional markets. So, yeah, there's clearly, like, an awakening happening in the crypto community where there's real value being created by crypto products and by crypto builders who are kind of reinventing the way that these assets trade. And it's really creating, I think, a lot more utility and value creation within crypto that previously was kind of centered around speculation and altcoins.

4:29機構資金上鏈的價值鏈與新機會

4:29如剛剛提到，現在我們談的是數十億美元，但機構市場規模是數兆美元。以美國股市為例，每天交易量就有1到2兆美元。當這些機構資金要上鏈時，整個價值鏈從託管、清算、到prime brokerage和交易服務都會被牽動。Josh剛才提到crypto native的創新，那你怎麼看這些機構角色、資產負債表在推動上鏈交易和流動性方面的作用？新玩家和既有玩家有什麼機會？So, as Andrew said and you said, we're talking about billions now, but institutional is trillions. So, for example, the U.S. market, equity market trades. Between one to two trillion a day on exchange. So when we talk about those kind of, that kind of cash, institutional cash moving on chain, we're talking about a whole value chain of different players in that market, from custody to clearing to prime. And also trading services. How do you think the market is evolving? And Josh, you mentioned that there is some great innovation in the digital native space, but how do you see all those institutional players and the role of Balance Sheet helping? To facilitate that trading and that volume on-chain, how do you see the opportunities for new players and existing players to move that money on-chain?

5:28我認為crypto native公司在這裡扮演很重要的角色，因為他們熟悉目前最活躍的tokenized證券和資產使用者。上一輪牛市的信用通路多半是無擔保貸款，現在已經演變成prime broker（主經紀商）來分配信用給避險基金和資產管理人。以我們FalconX為例，我們和Ethena合作，從Ethena的儲備金池提供on-chain貸款給prime brokerage客戶。這是第一步，下一步就是讓銀行和傳統金融機構也能參與這類信用產品的承作。I think that there's a role for crypto-native firms that have been in the industry for quite some time. And have some familiarity with the set of market participants who are currently, like, the most active users of tokenized securities and other assets. And basically, the credit channels that existed last cycle, which was largely composed of, like, unsecured under, you know, credit and things like that, that has evolved to sort of prime brokers. Intermediating distribution of credit to hedge funds and other sophisticated asset managers. And yes, that capital has to come from somewhere in some cases. So, for instance, at our firm FalconX, we are sourcing it from on-chain sources. We partnered with Ethena to create a, you know, an on-chain CeFi-type partnership where we can. Issue loans to our prime brokerage customers, and that's coming from the reserves of the Ethena product. And that is step one. Obviously, step two would be to get banks and other more traditional financial sponsors to underwrite these types of credit extension products into crypto.

6:41代幣化股票市場的連結與Ripple Prime角色

6:41接續Josh的話題，如果以股票市場來看，現在現金股市和tokenized equities其實是分散的。連結這兩者的關鍵在於造市商和流動性提供者，還有信用/槓桿提供者（傳統上是PB和清算公司）。這也是Ripple Prime專注的領域。我們有Ripple 500億美元的資產負債表支持，並取得信用評等，能把真正的買方資本帶進賣方產品，這是解鎖市場效率的關鍵。Just to carry on from Josh, I think you end up early stages with fragmentation between, if you just looked at equities, which you were referring to, Roland, right? You have the cash equity market, and you're seeing tokenized equities, and at the moment they're fragmented. And so the connectivity tissue is really two participants to it. First, it's the market makers and the liquidity providers, the stand between those. And then on top of that, it is the credit providers or the leverage. Providers, which in traditional finance have been PBs and clearing firms. And so that's exactly the area that Ripple Prime is focused on. And backed by Ripple with a $50 billion balance sheet, we've got our entity rated, taking real buy-side capital into a sell-side product. I think that's the key to unlock the market and the efficiencies around it.

7:29代幣化資產的實用性與Chainlink的角色

7:29兩個想法：一是剛剛提到tokenized equities只有幾十億美元，但美國股市每天就有一兆美元的交易量，全球股票市值高達150兆美元，潛力巨大。代幣化的最大突破是讓這些資產真正有用。技術上我們已經可以把股票、貨幣市場基金、公債、美元都放上鏈，但重點是要讓它們有用。Chainlink現在的重點之一就是讓機構能用這些tokenized資產作為抵押品，借貸、槓桿交易等。我們看到DTCC也在推collateral app chain，這個方向會很重要。Nasdaq和其他交易所也都在取得SEC監管核准，這代表整個生態系都會一起前進。All right, so two thoughts. One, hearing Josh's number of a few billion in tokenized equities and your number rolling at Nasdaq and just U.S. markets at a trillion or so a day, and I think total equities market is like 150 trillion. Massive. That number is only going to go in this direction, and so huge opportunities. I think tokenization in general, this big unlock is giving utility to tokenized assets. The technology has shown, okay, you can put a stock, a money market fund, a treasury, a U.S. dollar on a blockchain. So what? Now let's make it useful. At Chainlink, one of our big priorities now is collateral and allowing institutions to take those tokenized funds, lend it, borrow against it, use it for margin trading. We see the DTCC, they're launching their collateral app chain. So I think there's going to be a big move in that direction. I think it speaks volumes that Nasdaq and other exchanges are going and getting regulatory approvals from the SEC, and when Firms like Nasdaq and the DTCC are moving in this direction. All the thousands of broker-dealers and banks and asset managers that are connected to Nasdaq, they're along for the ride too.

8:37抵押品流動性與跨鏈挑戰

8:37你們覺得目前最鼓舞人心的採用跡象是什麼？未來一兩年會是單一重大突破，還是多個因素推動？美國監管環境相對友善，其他地區則較保守，這會是關鍵嗎？Yeah, and I think you mentioned collateral, and I think that's going to be my next question is, do you see, what do you think are the biggest... encouraging signs that you see in terms of the adoption scaling. And my second question to that would be, okay, is it going to be one or two big things? Is it obviously we've seen a very friendly regulatory environment in the U.S., probably less so in other jurisdictions. Is it going to be that? Is it going to be Three or four different things that sort of drive widespread adoption. What are those things, and how do you see that play out over the next year or two?

9:21我認為代幣化最強大的動力就是把金融資產當作抵押品，無論是借貸協議還是衍生品協議，這些都是crypto裡很活躍的應用。如果你把穩定幣也當作一種tokenized asset，這就需要有開放、無許可的市場，才能真正發揮抵押品的流動性。如果只靠中心化系統，現有金融基礎設施其實已經能滿足傳統市場需求。crypto的突破在於讓原本無法參與的流動性提供者也能進來，這是很大的創新。Yeah, I think the most powerful motivator of tokenization is using financial assets as collateral, collateral against lending. Protocols, collateral against derivatives protocols, and these are all very active use cases today in crypto. If you think about stablecoins as being that tokenized asset, I do think that that does require the existence of permissionless markets. To unlock that ability to use those tokenized assets as securities as collateral, if you are just purely relying on kind of centralized systems and rails, then you could argue the existing, you know, infrastructure that we have today is sufficient to support the use cases that we have in traditional markets, I think. The unlock coming from crypto is really that you're accessing lenders that would otherwise not be able to provide liquidity and capital into a market against these types of collateral assets that they normally wouldn't be able to have access to. I think that's one powerful use case.

10:29另一個應用是用crypto的格式跨境投資，比如美國投資人可以碰到海外股票，反之亦然。這其實就是讓資產有全球性的開放存取和創新。抵押品的流動性和prime broker的角色很重要。傳統市場結算從T+2到T+1，大家都很興奮，但如果能用區塊鏈讓抵押品即時流動，甚至做到原子結算，結算風險就能大幅降低。不過也要注意，完全原子結算可能會犧牲淨額結算的效率，所以要平衡。另一個重點是保證金調整，現在prime broker會根據客戶反應速度調整保證金，如果用法幣補繳通常要一天，但如果能即時補繳，客戶就能用更少的抵押品做更多事，這對風險管理是很大進步。The other one is obviously just, like, using crypto formats to access different geographies. So, like, U.S. investors touching offshore stocks and vice versa. But again, that speaks to the theme of having this sort of, like— Universal access and permissionless innovation around these tokenized assets. Collateral mobility is certainly it, and doing it through the lens of a prime broker. There's really two things that the unlock here, right? So one is traditional markets on the settlement side of, you know, we've grown up in a world where it was T2 moving down to T1, and everybody's very excited for it. With the ability and the velocity of moving collateral. Do you get to a world where you basically reduce or remove the Harris, that settlement risk, right? And I think we need to be careful to move to fully atomic because there should be shorter settlement windows to get efficiencies from netting. So I think just be careful on that. The second side of it is using it for margin calls, right? And so today, prime brokers, as an example, calibrate the margin. Requirement for a portfolio based on a number of factors, and one is how quick can a client react to a margin call. And if those are based on fiat top-ups, they're typically one day. And so you have this MPOR, what's called a margin period of risk. And so if you are able to reduce that down, there's efficiencies back to the end user because they can post less collateral upfront to trade and reuse that. So the unlock there, besides 24/7, et cetera, et cetera, I think from a risk perspective, it's a huge step forward.

12:07自動化結算與銀行進軍DeFi

12:07舉個真實例子：我以前是券商總裁，和營運團隊合作時，遇到客戶要補錢時常常要打電話找人，找不到就只能強制平倉，這對客戶體驗很差。如果能用智慧合約和區塊鏈自動化這一切，對大家都是好事。更讓我驚訝的是，現在銀行也想進軍DeFi。九年前我剛進這行時根本無法想像，幾年前還只是好奇，現在每週都在和全球最大銀行討論如何發行tokenized產品，甚至讓這些產品進入DeFi做借貸和抵押。2026年這已經成為常態，變化速度超乎想像。Just as a real-life example, Michael, that, like I was a president of a broker-dealer and would work with operations teams. And when you needed money from a customer, you're having to, like, call them, find them. And if you can't reach them via the telephone, you'd have to liquidate positions that you're choosing. It's a horrible customer experience. And the idea of automating this with smart contracts and blockchain technology is a win for everybody. I think bigger picture, what encourages me the most and also surprises me the most is banks wanting to go into DeFi. So when I first got into this space nine years ago, never could have imagined it. A few years ago, it became more like, Hey, that's interesting. Explain this to me. And now every week we're meeting with some of the largest banks in the world asking how they can build tokenized products. And not just for their typical customer, log into our website, buy and sell, trade, but how do we get those into DeFi so people can use them for loans and collateral? And I never thought that would be happening quite in 2026. And I think in a year or so, that's going to be business as usual for these large institutional players.

13:13多鏈世界與跨鏈資產流動

13:13回到剛剛的話題，抵押品在無許可鏈上自由流動，甚至跨鏈流動，這會不會造成大家的資產分散在不同鏈？還是未來會有一條主鏈統一管理？你們怎麼看這個多鏈世界？Yeah, the pace of change has been quite fast. Going back to comment that you said, Joshua, it's about collateral moving on permissionless chains and being able to freely move. And Michael was talking about how we... Freeing up the collateral to cross-collateralize and go finance different things. One question, challenge I would throw out to you: does that mean that, does it mean that everyone keeps their... Assets on one chain, or is it ten chains? How do we see that world evolve if it's permissionless and everyone has their pockets of collateral liquidity all over the place, or do we see a need for collateral being on a single set of chains or orchestrated under a single sort of layer, but— But to efficiently make use of the most of it, how does that influence how you guys view chains?

14:10這是個好問題。crypto一直在平衡資產即時流動和安全性（防駭）的取捨。像北韓駭客就是永遠的威脅。跨鏈橋有各自的信任假設，也有像Circle這種中心化發行人能跨鏈鑄造和贖回，提供一定程度的安全。crypto還在摸索最好的做法，但我認為持續創新和實驗比一成不變的基礎設施更好。Yeah, that's a good question. And I think crypto has had a hard time dealing with this sort of, you know, the trade-offs between instant mobility, for instance, being able to, like— Instantly swap one asset for another, or to borrow something against another form of asset collateral, and balancing that against the security interests of protecting against exploits, right? And, like, North Korea is obviously the ever-present adversary in crypto. So I think, to answer your question, like, it's sort of— A trade-off, right? There has to be these sort of permissionless ways to move assets from one chain to another via a bridge, and that each bridge has its own set of trust assumptions. But there's also a set of centralized issuers like Circle that have a way of sort of minting and redeeming across chains in a way that ensure some degree of protection and resistance to these sort of hacks. And I think that you need—I think crypto is still trying to figure out, to be honest. But I think at the end of the day, like, there's so much. It's better to have forward progress and innovation there and experimentation than sort of like a static infrastructure that's always existed.

15:37我不敢說什麼事百分百確定，但我幾乎可以肯定未來會有更多區塊鏈。AI讓開發新鏈變得更容易，未來會有現在不存在的新鏈成為主流。Chainlink的看法就是多鏈世界，所以我們有資料、協作、隱私、合規等多條產品線，跨鏈是我們的重點。我們打造了最安全、最合規的跨鏈工具，讓使用者可以把資產從A鏈賣給B鏈的人。經歷過這麼多跨鏈駭客事件後，越來越多客戶選擇我們，因為多鏈世界只會越來越明顯。So I never want to be certain in anything in life because it can be unpredictable, but I am just as certain as you could ever be that we will be living in a world with more blockchains. I think with AI making it easier for people to develop and implement ideas, we're going to have new blockchains that don't exist today that'll become big players. At Chainlink, this is our view of the world we're going to be living in, and we have a lot of different business lines: data, orchestration, privacy, compliance. But cross-chain is a key part of what we do, and we've built the leading, most secure, most compliant cross-chain tool for this very reason. So people who have assets on chain A and they want to sell it to someone on chain B, they can do so, and You know, in the wake of some of these hacks, right, hundreds of millions of dollars of real people's money being lost. We've stepped up, and a lot of those customers are coming our way, and I think that's only going to increase because I think we're going to be living in this multi-chain world.

16:37那機構或全球系統重要銀行（G-SIBs）會把資產放在很多條鏈，還是只選幾條最安全的？以我的經驗，他們會從一兩條開始，但不會只選一條，因為要分散風險。未來兩年、五年，跨鏈能力會變得很重要。我認為多鏈世界是必然，客戶會推動銀行跟上，雖然有風險，但全球化需求會讓賣方適應。But do you think that? As institutions or Gsips want to put their assets on chain, they want to put it on hundreds of chains, or they just want a couple that all of them have decided, right, that's safe, secure, and we can trust that chain. From real-life experiences, even as recent as last week, they'll start small, maybe one or two, but a bank doesn't want to choose their chain forever. And so you don't want to put all your eggs in one chain, one basket. Yeah, there's distribution diversification risk. So having that optionality, so whether it's today, two years, five years, to have that ability to go cross-chain is really important. I think we live in a multi-chain world. I think customers will push the banks to evolve over time. There are certainly risks associated with it, but the world is a global place and clients will want different things, and ultimately the sell side will conform.

17:29機構採用的風險與監管挑戰

17:29我們聊了規模和速度，那你們覺得機構金融上鏈最大的風險或挑戰是什麼？Yeah. Okay, changing gears. So one thing is we've talked about how it scales, and we've talked about the speed of the adoption and— Everything that's happened in the 12 months. So what do you see as the biggest risks or challenges in actually continuing that adoption for the whole ecosystem for institutional finance?

17:50我覺得有很多挑戰，包括監管、技術、營運等。美國的CLARITY Act沒過，但SEC又給了五年豁免，代表還是有進展。如果要選一個最大挑戰，我認為是營運面。G-SIB銀行要從朝九晚五轉成24/7，週末還要有法務、風控、合規團隊，這其實很難。技術面可以調整，比如從工作日結算改成日曆日結算，從T+2到永續合約都能做到，但營運層面每家公司都要自己補強，這是很大的挑戰。I think it's, I mean, there's a series of them, right? Whether it's, you know, the regulatory side of things, technology side, operations, lack of, you know, the clarity, right? The Clarity Act unfortunately didn't pass in the U.S., but then two days later the SEC gave a five-year exemption, right? So there's still, you know, a lot of forward progress there. But if I had to pick one, and so they all equally weigh in, but if I pick one, I think the biggest challenge is Operations. And so if we look at the G-SIB banks, right, moving from, you know, kind of nine to five to 24/7 and staffing that with legal risk compliance around weekends, I think that's underestimated. The technology side, you can sort, right? Like, yeah. You can conform your technology to move from things like business days to, you know, calendar days. You can move from, you know, having settlement dates to perpetual swaps. But I think that operational layer is something that all firms need to build out, and that's a challenge.

18:50上鏈資產的發行模式也有兩種：一種是用包裝（wrapper），由第三方託管證券並發行token，這種比較無許可、發行人不一定同意；另一種是發行人和過戶代理合作，直接把token納入官方股東名冊。業界還在摸索哪種模式比較好。未來可能會像穩定幣一樣，有高度監管的，也有比較自由的；交易所也是，有美國合規的中心化交易所，也有離岸的。tokenized資產也會有一部分是高度監管、受發行人控制，另一部分則可以在Aave、Uniswap等平台自由流通。Yeah, it's the issuance model for on-chain asset. Security and other types of real-world assets has been bifurcated. There's like two paths that people can take. You can go down the path where you use a wrapper and you have a firm sitting in between that is custodying securities and also issuing a token, and that happens in a more permissionless way and without the consent of the issuer necessarily. And then there's a path where the issuer works with their transfer agent and wraps their token or creates an official version of a cap table investment, basically. And I think we're still struggling, like, in the industry about where to go with issuing these types of tokenized stocks, I think. Ultimately, there's going to exist two different worlds. Like there has been in other crypto categories, like in stablecoins, there's more regulated stablecoins, there's less regulated stablecoins. In exchanges, there's, you know, the U.S.-regulated centralized exchanges, and there's the offshore ones. And I think the same thing will exist here, where there's some— Forms of tokenized assets that are highly permissioned and regulated and controlled by the issuers, and then there's going to be another set that are freely usable on platforms like Aave and Uniswap.

20:15我自己是律師出身，會把監管風險放第一。很可惜美國CLARITY Act沒過，但CFTC和SEC開始推新規則，雖然還要很長時間討論。最大風險是美國每兩四年政策就大轉彎，讓企業很難投入資金、招人、長期規劃。尤其是大銀行，法務、合規、風控團隊都需要明確的長期路線圖。真正能經得起時間考驗的監管清晰度才是大家夢寐以求的。So I'll admit my answer is biased as a former lawyer, but I lock in as regulation as probably the biggest risk. And, you know, it's unfortunate, of course, the Clarity Act didn't pass in the United States, but it was great that CFTC and SEC is coming out with this rulemaking, and surely thereafter, which will be a long process and comments. But the biggest risk is every two or four years we have a flip-flop. And it's really hard to invest real dollars, hire people, build when you're not sure what that landscape will look like in the future. And especially for large banks, where you have teams of lawyers, compliance officials, risk officers, who this is their whole job to make sure there's a framework, a road ahead. And having true clarity for the long term that'll stand the test of time is the dream. We'll take the regulation and hope that we'll never see this violent whiplash in the same way as in the past. So, but it's still risk, and it's not as simple as, is this a security or a commodity? That gets the headlines, right? But behind every single stock trade, there's rules about the order ticket, the disclosures, the trade confirm, your account statement. You're order reporting, different regulators, and that's a lot of open questions still today with digital assets. And so we need that clarity in one form, and it needs to be an answer that stands the test of time.

21:39監管推動創新與全球分歧

21:39你們在合規業務裡，怎麼看過去一年監管對創新的影響？未來要怎麼讓機構更安心地把資產上鏈？Yeah, that's a great perspective. And I guess, as you were saying, as a lawyer by trade, and for you guys working in prime regulated businesses, how do you see How do you see the last 12 months of regulation and regulation facilitating innovation? How would you want to see that go forward to remove those? I mean, everyone wants certainty, but how do you see that happening in a rational fashion to allow... Institutions deploy more balance sheet, put more assets on, and know, okay, I'm safe innovating and also putting my clients' money, not just your own money, but my clients' money on chain.

22:24舉個真實例子：2025年夏天GENIUS Act通過，幾乎所有銀行馬上宣布要做區塊鏈業務，連Western Union這種超傳統金融機構都說要發穩定幣，甚至明尼蘇達的小型信用合作社也要發穩定幣。這一切都因為有明確的監管。只要有清楚的規則，原本觀望的資本和人才就會快速進場。金融業都會觀察競爭對手，只要有一家開始，大家就會跟進，速度會越來越快。I would say we have a real use case from summer of 2025, the Genius Act passed. Signed into law, and within weeks you have almost every bank saying we're doing stuff in the space. But even Western Union probably is about as old school of a financial institution as you can imagine. It's like, hey, we're doing stablecoins, to the other extreme, like there's a small credit union in Minnesota that's, hey, we're doing a stablecoin. None of that happens, I believe, without the Genius Act. I think when we have clear regulation, again, it's tough to say the word, but ideally if we had legislation, but we're not getting that it seems. If we had clear regulation, I think you're going to see the same thing: a lot of capital that's been on the sidelines, a lot of hiring that's been on the sidelines because we're taking very small, gradual steps. We'll accelerate, and having worked in broker-dealers and fintechs for years, you always look at your competitors. So if you're in a space that's new, a little gray, you're like, what is this firm doing? What's that firm doing? And as each firm starts to take more and more steps, it just accelerates from there.

23:29但監管分歧也是一大挑戰。美國、歐洲、亞洲各自有不同的規則，不只是市場監管，還有會計、稅務等。美國FASB最近才明確規範數位資產的會計處理，但其他國家還沒跟上。等到全球監管趨於一致，才會真正解鎖市場潛力。And just add to it, right, like fragmentation in regulation. Right, because we're talking about the U.S. and they look at things, you know, differently than Europe and different parts of Asia as well. And so if you're a global business navigating that fragmentation across all of those, but it's not just market regulations, right? It's how do you, you know, how do you book these things? How do you pay taxes on these things, right? Like FASB codifying the way you pay taxes in the U.S. was a major step forward. You're not— Quite there in each jurisdiction, it's complicated, but I think over time, once we get the clarity and the certainty, that will be a massive unlock.

24:04美國還有50個州各自有不同的加密貨幣和證券監管機構，這真的很複雜。歐洲有27個國家監管，亞洲也有各自的看法。全球監管協調還有很長的路要走。Even just to add, like the United States, there's 50 different states with different rules, and if you even drill down further, there's 50 state crypto money transmitter regulators, there's 50 state securities regulators, and it's a mess. Exactly. Yeah. Well, it's interesting, like from a European perspective, that they would look at, well, there's 27 different actual national regulators. Challenge in many other things. Yeah, and I think here in Asia, there's different opinions and regulators as well.

24:36未來五年：金融上鏈的關鍵里程碑

24:36最後一題：如果五年後我們再坐在這裡，你們覺得機構金融會有什麼重大進展？有哪些關鍵指標可以觀察？So maybe I'll move on to our final question, and I'll ask. Each of you. So if you're sitting here five years from now, talk a bit about what you think can be accomplished within the next five years for institutional finance, and what are the critical signposts or milestones that will show us we're on the way to that?

24:58我先拋個大膽想法：世界正不可逆地往上鏈發展，監管會逐步到位，技術和營運也會跟上。但傳統和數位世界還是會並存，關鍵在於你有多大比例的資產留在數位世界。舉例來說，現在大家每月領一次薪水，未來有agentic payments和大量微支付，為什麼不能更頻繁、直接用數位資產支付？這會讓大家更快進入數位金融世界。另一個指標是信用違約交換（CDS）市場，如果這個市場健康發展，代表風險管理也成熟了。I'll give a crazy one to start, right? So I think the world is inexorably moving in this direction. Right, things are moving on chain. We're going to get the regulations over time. The technology is going to conform. You'll sort out the operational side of it. But you're still kind of living in these two worlds, right? The traditional world and the digital world. And the more you, you know, you have to on-ramp and off-ramp between them. And so the more you kind of stay in that digital world, like that's the key. And so that starts with how you're paid. Every month you're paid in fiat, and then you need to figure out how you on-ramp. And so. With things like agentic payments and, you know, millions if not billions of, you know, agentic micro payments happening, like why are we paying people once a month or twice a month? Why aren't we paying them more frequently and then paying them in that digital format where they can immediately access this new world? So I don't think we're really far from solving finance moving on chain, but it's that. Do you switch back and forth, and I think that's a benchmark to look at. And the last thing I'd say is there's still counterparty credit risk in the market. If you see a healthy CDS market start to develop, I think that's still undervalued. Those are kind of the two things that I look at.

26:10對我來說，資產發行和公司上市（IPO）是很關鍵的里程碑。如果未來tokenized證券和RWA能讓IPO變得更開放，讓更多人參與，甚至像以太坊ICO那樣成為資本形成的重要工具，這會是很大的突破。這也會帶來更活躍的借貸和選擇權市場，讓新上市資產能馬上被應用和創新。For me, if you think about the journey of— An asset issuance and how a company gets to public markets. Like, I think that the moment of the IPO is such a critical event. I think, like, that, I think that a milestone for tokenized securities and other real-world assets would be to sort of transform that moment to allow much greater access. So it's both, like— Think of crypto and its history of being used as a capital formation tool, like when ETH did its ICO, right? That was a big landmark event. I think that will happen to equities at some point, contingent on regulation permitting it. But it also opens the door to a lot of very cool things, like, for instance, an active borrow-lend market, right, in a tokenized security. Even when today these assets are locked up or hard to borrow in the first couple of days post-IPO, the lack of options trading on a newly listed stock, you know, all these things can be remedied quickly if you have. Tokenize assets and people allowed to build applications around those permissionlessly, as long as it's on Nasdaq.

27:24你提到一個重點，就是現金和衍生品、私募和公開市場的界線會越來越模糊。未來IPO可能不再是單一事件，而是私募到公開市場的連續過程，投資人參與會更直接。No, but I think you raise an important point, and that's what we see is sort of the blurring of cash and derivatives, private and public. And so maybe the point in time for IPO becomes More a continuum of investment in private, and then it slowly unlocks to public, but in a much more direct way.

27:46我認為未來金融體系會更健康。Nasdaq的開盤和收盤鐘五年後可能只剩象徵意義，因為區塊鏈會讓機構和散戶都能更自由掌控資產，降低抵押品風險，不用再因為假日或T+2多押資金。這會讓金融系統更有效率、更普及。How about you, Andrew? We will have a healthier financial system. Now, your opening and closing bells in Nasdaq will be less important, I think, in five years and just purely symbolic, but— Blockchain will enable both institutions and retail investors to have greater access and control of their own assets. I believe it will be able to enable them to lower risk when it comes to collateral and making the best use of your money, not having to over-collateralize because you're not sure of the risk. You might have T plus two because of weekend or holidays. So I think we're on. to track for a better financial system and hopefully more accessible for everybody.

28:24我同意風險分散很重要，但風險永遠不會消失，只能降低。謝謝大家，感謝Joshua、Michael和Andrew，這就是我們今天的機構金融上鏈座談！Excellent. I buy the diversification of risk argument, but I don't buy the no risk argument. Lower risk. There's always risk in life, but we can. All right. Okay. Thank you very much, everyone. I'd like to thank Joshua, Michael, and Andrew. But there you go. That's the panel on institutional finance moving on chain. Thank you.