資產代幣化：Fidelity、BlackRock、Morgan Stanley、Bitwise 高層對談

0:00投資革命新焦點：從基礎建設到投資流程

0:00大家好，歡迎來到現場，我們今天要帶來最火熱的觀點。大多數有關資產代幣化的討論，都把時間花在基礎建設和支付軌道上，但這場討論不一樣。我們要聚焦在投資本身的變革：投資流程、投資產品、客戶、競爭、政策，全面探討。我們很幸運能邀請到四位世界級專家，馬上就要切入主題。All right, hello everyone. We are here to deliver the hot spicy takes. Most tokenization panels spend all the time talking about infrastructure and rails. Not this one. We're going to focus on changes to investing itself: the investment process, investment products, clients, competition, policy, the gamut. We're lucky to start with four world-class experts, and we're going to dive straight in.

0:40代幣化與 ETF：兩種截然不同的投資邏輯

0:40Nikhil，這題先請你回答。加密產業過去多年都在嘗試把數位原生產品包裝成 ETF，現在我們則專注於把傳統資產帶到區塊鏈上。這兩者是一樣的交易嗎？還是完全相反？我們該如何看待這個主題？Nikhil, I'm going to start with this one coming to you. Crypto spent years trying to take digital native products and wrap them in ETFs. Today, we're focused on taking traditional assets and bringing them over to the blockchain. Is this the same trade? Is it the opposite trade? Like, how should we think about this as a theme?

1:01這是個好問題，Michael。基本上，這是兩種不同的交易。ETF 是在把新型態的加密曝險，放進大家熟悉的包裝裡，讓投資人能用他們習慣的方式參與。如果反過來看，代幣化則是把現有的傳統市場曝險，轉換成適合新一代投資人的格式，像是透過數位錢包。兩者解決的問題不同，但有一個共同點，等一下我會再說。Great question, Michael. Fundamentally, these are different trades, right? Because if you think about what ETPs are doing, they're taking a novel exposure, crypto exposure, putting it in a familiar wrapper, making it available to investors, fusing it in their behavior. If you look at it the other way, tokenization is taking traditional exposures, exposures that we have today within the traditional markets, putting it in a format that's amenable to this new cohort. That's taking exposures through digital wallets. They're solving different problems, but then there is one unifying sort of common denominator to both. I'll come to that in a bit.

1:44ETF 解決的問題是，投資人能一鍵取得加密曝險，這讓市場規模在兩年內成長到約 1200 億美元。代幣化則帶來額外的效用，所以這是「取得」與「效用」的故事。兩者的共通點是，你其實沒有強迫使用者改變行為，而是把曝險帶到使用者所在的地方，這才讓市場擴大。ETF 已經證明這點，代幣化還在進行中，未來會怎麼發展還有待觀察。If you look at ETPs, what they basically solved is, like, investors were able to single-click access crypto exposures. That's what expanded the market. Now we are at about 120 billion in about two years. That's what ETPs enabled. If you look at tokenization, what it's enabling is additional utility. So it's an access versus utility story. The common denominator, however, is the fact that you're not actually changing or forcing a change in user behavior. You're actually providing the exposure where the user actually is. That's what enabled expansion. So we have seen ETPs expand the market there. Tokenization is a journey in progress. We'll see where that goes.

2:25形式與本質：代幣化是否創造新機會與風險？

2:25延續這個主題，Amy，這題請你。美國 SEC 今年初確認了許多傳統金融圈一直相信的事：資產代幣化並不會改變資產的本質，代幣化證券還是證券。你多年來交易新興市場，從這個經驗來看，形式有時候會比本質更重要嗎？單純把資產代幣化，即使本質沒變，會不會創造新的機會或風險，必須納入投資流程考量？Carrying on that theme, Amy, I'm going to come to you on this one. Earlier this year, the SEC confirmed what I think a lot of TradFi believed to be true, that tokenizing an asset doesn't fundamentally change the nature. You know, a tokenized security is still a security. Now, you've traded emerging markets for many years, and so using that experience as a lens, are there sometimes cases where the form is actually more meaningful than the substance? Like just tokenizing the asset, even if it doesn't change its underlying nature, create new opportunities, new risks that have to be incorporated into the investment process.

3:14這是個很好的問題。我們現在面臨的情況是，在傳統市場有本地股票、ADR、衍生品、P-note 等，這些資產有不同名稱和功能。但在新市場，尤其是當我們把所有東西都代幣化後，這些都被統稱為「Token」。隨著越來越多客戶進入這個市場，情況變得有點混亂。現在很多 Token 和活動，對國際投資人來說是很好的取得管道，這個應用情境很成功，但這跟 DTCC 上的鏡像 Token 和活動又不同。這也是我們今天面臨的挑戰之一：如何在這之間導航。It's a great question, and I think one of the things we're dealing with, where in the traditional markets we had locals, ADRs, derivatives, P-notes, we had—They had different names, and you got different features or functions out of those assets before. In the new market, especially as we're tokenizing everything, all of those are called tokens. And as we continue to bring more clients into this market, it's starting to get a little confusing. So many of the tokens and the activity we've seen today. Access plays for international investors, it's a great use case. It's working well, but that's not the same as, say, a mirror token and the activity that's happening on DTCC. And it's one of the challenges I think we have today is trying to navigate that.

4:07投資流程的變革與流動性錯配

4:07Cynthia，請你談談投資流程本身。當基金經理人操作代幣化資產時，最需要注意哪些核心變化？Cynthia, I'm going to pull you in here. In the investment process itself, when a PM is running a tokenized asset, what are the core changes that they need to be mindful of?

4:21這確實是個很有趣的問題。假如一檔基金被代幣化，而這檔基金投資的是傳統資產，那麼在投組建構和風險管理上，流程本身不一定會改變。真正不同的是，傳統市場的流動性和現在這個可以 24 小時交易的新包裝之間，會出現流動性錯配。你必須思考，投資人能在全球 24/7 的時間內轉移資產，但底層投組並不是隨時都在交易。這代表會有進出基金的截止時間，因為底層市場有自己的交易時段，而鏈上投資人的預期卻是隨時都能交易。現在很多人都在努力解決這個斷層，想辦法橋接截止時間和鏈上 24/7 交易的自然期待。So that actually is a really interesting question. The portfolio process where the fund that's being tokenized, if the fund is investing in traditional assets, that investment process in terms of portfolio construction and risk management doesn't change necessarily. What is different, and it starts with the liquidity mismatch between the traditional markets in which the portfolio is investing and now this new wrapper that is available to be traded 24 by 7. And so how you can reconcile. The ability for the investor to transfer that asset throughout the 24/7 global period and be able to understand the impact on an underlying portfolio that doesn't trade at the same time. And so what that means is there are cutoff times. For when investors are able to get in and out of the traditional fund, because that's the timeline of the underlying market. And the on-chain investors' expectation is not that there is a cutoff time. And so what a lot of folks right now are trying to work on are ways to be able to bridge that gap between the cutoff times and the natural expectation on-chain that you can transact 24 by 7.

5:50只要你沒有影響到底層基金的進出或申購贖回時段，底層資產還是照常交易。問題在於如何解決這個流動性錯配。The impact on the underlying portfolio, as long as you're not impacting the in and out or redeem and subscription periods of the underlying fund, they continue to trade. The problem is now finding a way to bridge that liquidity mismatch.

6:09代幣化資產的持有與管理新挑戰

6:09Hunter，從最終投資人的角度來看，持有代幣化資產需要新的流程嗎？需要額外的盡職調查或不同的託管關係嗎？哪些可以沿用，哪些是全新的？So, Hunter, you know, downstream of that PM activity, end investor perspective, are there new processes that are necessary to hold tokenized assets? Do they need separate due diligence, different, you know, custodial relationships? How much of this can be reused? How much is brand new?

6:29我完全同意剛剛大家的說法，Amy 剛才提到的一點我很有共鳴，就是現在代幣化有非常多不同的面向。我們有一檔代幣化基金 USCC，做的是基差交易、產生收益，這跟代幣化的 SPY 或 IVV 完全不同。我們的 Vault 裡還有代幣化 GPU 點數、USD AI 或 PST（代幣化的營運資金貸款），大家也知道 Figure 的 Prime。這麼多不同類型，其實很難一概而論，所以我們才會在這裡討論。Gosh, I agree with everything that's been said, and something that Amy said really resonated with me as it pertains to this question, which is there are so many different dimensions to tokenization right now. We have a tokenized fund, USCC, which runs the basis trade, generates yield. That's totally different than tokenized SPY or IVV. That's very different than in our vaults. There's tokenized GPU credit, USD AI or PST, which is tokenized working capital loans, people know Prime from Figure. So there's so many different— so it's almost hard to talk about the subject matter. That's why we're here. I know, I know.

7:15甚至現在大家會把代幣化當成流動性資產的代名詞，把 RWA 當成信用抵押品的代名詞。簡單來說，細節非常多，會依據你討論的類型而大不相同。不過大致上可以分成幾個主流路線：一是讓非美國投資人能公開取得美股流動性曝險，這是一大主軸；另一個是像 BUIDL 開創的，把傳統基金工具代幣化，讓它們能用於財務管理等；第三個是把信用資產代幣化，成為 Vault 或其他鏈上活動的組成。每種都有不同細節，工程和法規面都要處理好，這對投資管理來說是全新挑戰。Even, even, even, you know, I feel like people started to use tokenization as shorthand for the liquid stuff and RWAs, which are tokenized, as shorthand for the credit collateral. The short answer is, yeah, there's tons of nuances that really vary depending on which cross section, but I think generally speaking, there's a lane which is public liquid exposure to U.S. equity markets for investors outside of the U.S. That's one big lane. There's another, which is, you know, sort of the opportunity that BUIDL pioneered, which is—Tokenizing conventional fund instruments to make them available for treasury management and so on and so forth. And then I think there's a third lane today, which is tokenizing credits that can be interesting ingredients in vaults and other on-chain activities. So depending which one, there's different details, but there's a lot of details that have to be understood, and you have to get right on the engineering front also, which is kind of a newer dimension from an investment management perspective, as well as the regulatory front and everything else.

8:26價格發現與流動性：代幣化資產的市場動態

8:26Nikhil，這題請你回答，其他人也可以補充。你剛才提到代幣化和傳統資產，投資人應該預期這兩者價格會出現差異嗎？如果會，為什麼？Throw this one to you, Nikhil, but others can weigh in. You mentioned tokenized and conventional assets. Should investors expect those prices to diverge? And if so, why?

8:37這題很有意思，因為我們經常被投資人或潛在客戶問到。我就以 Hunter 剛才提到的那檔基金為例（合規不能直接說名字）。如果你看貨幣市場基金，重點是要拆解曝險、效用和定價。以美國的代幣化流動性基金為例，底層資產沒變，收益率也一樣。我們發行的其他貨幣市場基金，底層是公債、國庫券、不同貨幣計價的債券等等，收益率也一樣。代幣化帶來的，是把同一單位換個形式、加速流轉，像是 24/7 轉帳、鏈上贖回指令等，這才是效用的開始。That's an interesting one because we keep getting that question from investors as well, or prospects as well that we talk to. I'll limit my answer to the fund that Hunter mentioned earlier, because compliance does not allow me to name that fund. But when you think about money market funds broadly, it's useful to decouple what the exposure is. What the utility is, and then the pricing. So if you think about money market funds, the one that Hunter mentioned as well, tokenized liquidity fund in the U.S., the underlying isn't changing, which means the yields are the same. If you look at the other money market funds that we've launched, the underlying is public debt, treasuries, individual currency-based debt, etc. So the yields are the same. What tokenization enables is essentially taking that same unit in a different format and moving it faster, maybe 24 by 7 transfers, instructing redemptions on chain, etc. That's where utility starts to set in.

9:36目前最明顯的效用，是給已經在鏈上的原生投資人，他們有穩定幣，可以直接投入貨幣市場基金、賺取收益。隨著機構進場，這些效用還沒大規模實現。我們認為未來的突破會在抵押品流動性、財務管理流程等，原則不變，就是把代幣化工具直接用於流程中，不必贖回成現金，可以直接點對點轉移、當抵押品或交易保證金。但要大規模落地，還在演進中。這很重要，因為這就是價格發現的過程。當機構開始把這些工具納入流程，會發現同樣的資產、同樣的曝險，但效用更高，可能願意多付一點價錢或接受折價。這就是我們正在經歷的過程。So the question then is the clearest utility that arrived so far with the fund that we have was for on-chain native investors that were already on-chain. So they had stablecoins on-chain, they were able to sweep it into the money market fund, the tokenized liquidity fund, earn yields off it. As the aperture widens and institutions start to step in, those utilities have yet to be manifested at scale. What we do believe is some of the unlocks will be on collateral mobility, treasury management workflows, where the principles stay the same, where you're taking a tokenized instrument and saying, I don't want to redeem it into cash. I can take that yield-bearing instrument and just transfer it peer-to-peer, either for my treasury management workflows or as collateral or as trading margin. But for that to scale, and for an institution to actually say, this is how I can plug it into my workflows at scale, we are still evolving in that journey. Why that's important is because that's the price discovery procedure. That's the price discovery process as well. That would be the journey when institutions start to see this and almost start to say, yes, this is the same sort of instrument, same exposure, but providing me a higher utility. For which I might be willing to sort of pay an extra price or have a discount or whatever. So that's the process we are on.

11:00這對主動管理來說是很棒的機會。過去我們太專注於被動資產，尤其在傳統金融領域，但如果有更多交易場域、不同方式取得同樣曝險，就會有機會出現流動性分散、錯價，特別是市場開盤時間不同、24/7 交易等。我預期會有投資人積極參與這些機會。It's an incredible opportunity for active management to potentially come back into the arena a bit. We've moved so far to just focusing on passive assets, especially in the traditional finance space. But if you do have additional venues. Different ways to access the same exposure. There's an opportunity there, and fragmented liquidity, mispricing, depending on markets that are open, markets that are trading 24/7. I would expect to see some of the investors get involved in that opportunity across the board.

11:33我完全同意。Nikhil 剛才提到一個重點，就是傳統市場還是主要流動性所在，但現在有一個新興市場在交易類似工具、流動性較低，這會產生套利機會。不過隨著流動性逐漸遷移，市場達到均衡，套利空間就會縮小，這是市場成熟的自然演進。Yeah, I think that's totally fair. And the point that Nikhil made earlier about the fact that there's obviously our traditional market where the primary liquidity resides, and a new emerging market trading similar instruments with less liquidity. There's going to be an opportunity for arbitrage, but over time. As liquidity starts to migrate and there's an equilibrium that the markets eventually equalize, that arbitrage opportunity, right, starts to reduce. And that's sort of the natural evolution of market maturation.

12:11加密原生資產管理者的優勢？

12:11這場討論大家都很和諧，接下來我想挑戰一下。Hunter，你覺得加密原生的資產管理公司，在這個領域是否比傳統資產管理者有先發優勢？現場有三家全球最大金融機構，我可不想得罪任何一位，真的很敬佩你們。加密原生公司有優勢嗎？也許有一點點，但我不覺得差距很大。There's been a lot of harmony on this panel. I'll try to upset that now with my next question. Hunter. Do crypto-native asset management firms have a head start in this space versus the more traditional asset managers? Three of the largest financial institutions in the world sitting here. First of all, I don't want to piss any of them off. Admire them. Do the crypto-native firms have a head start? Maybe a little bit. I, you know, I don't feel tremendously.

12:44傳統資產管理與數位資產的融合挑戰

12:44對，這大概就是簡短的答案。其實我們公司只有一個專注的領域，所以在優先排序上，有時候在加密貨幣圈大家會忘記，像我身邊這些大型機構，他們肩負著很多對客戶非常重要的責任，而我們某種程度上有著只專注於這一塊的奢侈。於是我們會觀察趨勢，尋找投資人想參與的機會並採取行動。不過我不覺得有什麼結構性的原因。真是位紳士。Yeah, that's, I guess would be the short answer. I mean, as a firm, we have one area of focus. So I suppose in that sense, from a prioritization perspective, I think sometimes in crypto, people can forget that these great institutions sitting next to me here are responsible for a lot of things that are very important to clients, whereas we in some ways have the luxury of just this one focus. But, so we, you know, we try to look to where things are going and the opportunities investors want to participate in and approach that. But I don't know if there's any structural reason. Such a gentleman.

13:26這裡確實有一些機會。對於我們這種大型傳統資產管理公司來說，我們的營運平台是為了在傳統市場環境下大規模運作而改善的。將數位資產引入這個傳統環境確實是一大挑戰，因此在這方面有不少取捨。如果我們能從零開始設計一個正確的營運系統，來支援整個投資生態系中的數位資產，我可能就不會以傳統平台為基礎來設計了。這會讓我們進展慢一點嗎？也許會，但同時也讓我們學到如何讓數位資產與傳統資產並存。這真的很不容易。不過我們其實共存得還不錯。Some opportunity there. I think coming from a large traditional asset manager, our operating platform has been optimized to perform and perform at scale within a traditional market environment. Introducing digital assets into that traditional operating environment has been a challenge, and so I think there's trade-offs to— You know, having that blank slate, if we were to create the correct operating system to be able to support digital assets across the entire investment ecosystem, I may not design it off of the back of a traditional operating platform, and so. Does that slow us down a little bit? Does that offer us maybe some learnings into how we might, right, think about building ways to be able to support digital assets side by side with the traditional? That's also quite a bit tricky. No, we coexist pretty well together.

14:28我們已經推出了自己的加密貨幣 ETPs。雖然上市時間較晚，你可能會想市場上為什麼還需要另一個比特幣 ETP？但六個月內，我們的加密 ETPs 已經突破十億美元。同時，Bitwise 推出的一些產品也在我們的財富管理平台上表現非常好，特別是在教育我們的理財顧問方面，這真的幫了大忙。還有像自動化代幣投資組合這類新產品，真的很棒。未來我們也希望有機會一起合作這些創新產品。So we've launched our own crypto ETPs. We were— Late to the game, you would think, why did we even need another Bitcoin ETP in the marketplace? And here we are in six months, we've hit a billion dollars within our crypto ETPs. At the same time, Hunter and some of the products that Bitwise have launched are also available on our wealth platform, do super well in terms of educating our financial advisors. Thank you. That's a huge lift. And then you also have, like, the automated token portfolios. I mean, that's awesome. It really is, like, starting to look at some of the new product that potentially will come to market, and hopefully at some point we can consider working together on things like that.

15:14產品包裝與分銷策略的轉變

15:14還是想挑起點爭議，但真的很難。Nikhil，我來問你。像 BlackRock 這樣的公司，會不會有偏好引導客戶選擇某種產品包裝？比如同一種資產可以透過不同產品形式取得，你們會怎麼考量分配？其實情況正好相反，一切從客戶需求出發。只要能達到客戶想要的結果，無論是什麼包裝、甚至是多種包裝組合都可以。就像樂高積木一樣，可以組合出客戶想要的目標。雖然這聽起來很老套，但我們的流程就是這樣，從客戶需求開始，再選擇哪種產品、哪種包裝能滿足。Still trying to stoke controversy, proving very hard. Nikhil, I'll come to you. Does a firm like BlackRock have a house view on whether you'd prefer to steer a client toward a particular wrapper when an exposure could be available through a number of different products? Now, is a tokenized asset versus a mutual fund versus a traditional ETF, you know, how do you think about prioritizing that type of distribution? It actually works the reverse. So it starts with the client outcome, right? So as long as the client outcome is satisfied, it could be any wrapper, a combination of wrappers. It could be a Lego block that sort of— Combines a bunch of wrappers to kind of achieve that particular client objective. And as cliched as that might sound, that's exactly the process, because it starts with the client sort of saying what they actually want, and then which product, which wrapper actually satisfied that.

16:17所以產品包裝只是達成目標的手段。以代幣化來說，它提供了一個很有趣的提案：你可以用這個包裝觸及新的投資族群，還能加入傳統產品沒有的新功能。這也讓資產持有人能直接在鏈上互動，這就是我們談到 DeFi、vaults 等新型態的金融結構。這很有趣，因為它像是一個開放市場，讓受監管的金融產品也能互動。因為資產以可互通的格式存在，這種能力就出現了。So then the wrapper essentially starts to become a means to an end. In terms of what objective needs to be achieved, tokenization, therefore, like as an extension, is, it provides an interesting proposition in that, one, you can use that wrapper to reach a new cohort of investors. You can add utilities that potentially did not exist in the traditional file format of the same asset. As an extension, it also allows you to sort of interact, or it allows the holder through the asset to interact with utilities directly on chain. And that's where we come to decentralized finance, vaults, and all the new constructs today. It's an interesting proposition if you think about it, because it's almost like an open access market where regulated financial products could interact. The ability is there. Because you have created the asset in a format which can interoperate.

17:14但要實現這一點，現有受監管資產的控管邊界，像 KYC、AML、整個治理模式，也必須和這些新協議結合。這還在進行中，目前還沒完全對接。不過看到身分、隱私保護身分、可驗證憑證等領域的進展令人振奮。未來我們可能會看到受監管金融產品能在開放協議中互動，同時保留現有的控管機制。如果能把 KYC、AML 等要求映射到這些代幣化結構，並帶進公鏈協議，將大幅提升實用性，這也可能讓我們更願意推薦客戶使用這類產品，因為他們能做的不只是持有，還能有更多功能。What needs to happen, though, is that the control perimeter that exists in regulated assets today, think about KYC, AML, the entire governance model, needs to somehow marry with these new protocols as well. Now that's a work in progress. Today it might not match one for one. It's heartening to see some of the work happening in the space in terms of, like, identity, privacy-preserving identity, verifiable credentials, etc. So, I mean, going forward into the future, we might see a time when, like, regulated financial products, in some ways, can interact with open access protocols, preserving the control perimeter that exists today. But in a way that's more amenable to this market, primarily being like if you can map out KYC AML to these tokenized constructs and like bring it into protocols on public chain, it's definitely something that provides more utility. So something that might urge us to sort of point clients towards that, saying. You could hold the same exposure, but you could do X, Y, and Z more than what you're doing today.

18:21但回到你的問題，我們並不會強推這種產品給客戶。只有當它真的能為客戶投資組合帶來額外價值時，我們才會推薦。總的來說，我們希望能像樂高積木一樣，打造出多元組合。That still, going back to your question, doesn't lead us to kind of pushing that to a client. If it really adds to a client portfolio in terms of an addition bolt-on complement, then we would. But overall, it's almost like that Lego block that we would like to create.

18:36DeFi 產品進入傳統資產管理

18:36你剛剛提到 vaults，我也很好奇其他 DeFi 原生產品是否也開始進入產品設計流程？像預測市場、永續合約等，會不會也出現在傳統資產管理裡？我認為資產管理的本質就是協調資本、協調投資機會，並將這些機會帶給投資人。將新工具納入投資流程對資產管理人來說是很自然的事。過去幾十年，隨著新衍生性商品出現，讓我們能用不同方式切割風險或更精確避險。代幣化資產納入投資組合，其實就是投資組合建構流程的自然延伸。You mentioned vaults. I'm curious if other kind of... DeFi-born products are also beginning to make their way into the, you know, product construction process. Like, will we see prediction markets and perps and some of these others begin to emerge inside the more, you know, traditional asset management? The way that I think about asset management is, you know, we are orchestrating, using a term common in crypto, we orchestrate capital, we orchestrate investment opportunities, and we deliver those opportunities to our investors. And incorporating new instruments into our investment process is sort of natural. It's happened, you know, many times over the last several decades as new derivative instruments have come into existence that allow for different ways to be able to slice exposures or provide, right, more precise hedges. And so, you know, I think of tokenized assets being incorporated into a portfolio as part of the natural portfolio construction process.

19:44你會尋找成本最低、資本效率最高的方式來取得投資曝險，同時考量風險管理和整體投資體驗品質。最終，當我們思考未來的財富管理和資產管理時，只有讓投資人更容易理解如何參與投資，我們才能成功。我們不會去強調資產是記在傳統帳本、紙本保管還是區塊鏈上，客戶只會看自己的投資組合價值和持有標的，不會在意資產所有權是怎麼記錄的。You're going to look for the lowest cost way to be able to access and exposure, and the lowest capital intensive way to be able to deliver that, taking into account, right, risk management. And the overall, you know, quality of the investment experience. And, you know, ultimately, when we think about what the future of wealth management and asset management looks like, you know, we're going to succeed if we are able to, you know, demystify for our investors how they access investments. And, you know, we don't talk about. You know, our assets sitting on a traditional ledger or assets sitting in paper form in a vault somewhere, or our assets, right, sitting on a blockchain. You know, in their account statement, they're going to look at what their portfolio value is and what the investments are. But we're not going to get into the detail, and customers aren't going to ask, you know, exactly how are you recording my ownership of that asset.

20:42我很喜歡永續合約、預測市場這些主題。對於數位資產來說，我們需要能支援 24/7 的基礎設施和即時資料。隨著這些主題越來越熱門，我們也能推動團隊思考基礎設施升級，這對任何長期可持續的創新都很關鍵。這是我現在最重視的事，就是推動團隊持續建設。You know, the one thing I like about perpetuals, prediction markets, all these other themes that we've talked so much about this year, when it comes to digital assets, we need that infrastructure to support 24/7 and the real-time data to be able to do that. So as we have momentum in so many of these themes, we're able to push the teams to really think about some of those core infrastructure upgrades that we need to make across the board. And that's critical no matter what takes off and is sustainable long term. So that's the one thing that I'm getting out of it right now to really push a lot of the teams to continue to build.

21:19新型市場與價格發現的進化

21:19我想補充一點，根據剛才的討論，我們內部開始和投資團隊討論一個案例：永續合約和預測市場因為全年無休運作，能即時反映市場資訊，對價格發現帶來強化效果。當傳統市場休市時，這些市場仍能反映價格，等到市場重新開盤時，這些額外資訊對價格發現其實非常有價值。這是新市場如何融入並提升整體市場結構的延伸。最終，應該只有一個市場，而不是傳統市場和鏈上市場分開。Maybe if I could just one more item on the basis of what you just said, you know, one of the proof cases that we've started talking about internally with our investment teams is the idea of enhanced price discovery as a result of perpetuals and prediction markets, because they are operating 24/7. And so they have the ability to take into account market information real time and be able to produce the impact on prices during hours when markets are not open. And when that reconciliation happens, when the markets open again, it's actually quite remarkable how valuable that additional information point is in the price discovery process. And so this is really, you know, from our standpoint, an extension of how these new markets are. You know, adding value and integrating into the fabric of markets. And ultimately, right, it should be one market, not a traditional market and a non-chain market.

22:23順帶一提，抵押品也很重要。當這些市場大量出現時，交易保證金就需要抵押品。如果你用代幣化資產作為抵押品，而且這個資產是你信任的，它就會成為可以接入這些市場的另一種工具。未來我們會看到這類抵押品的普及，但還是在現有控管框架下。這是對 Cynthia 剛才說法的補充。Incidental but important is collateral. So when these markets are sort of proliferating, you do need to post collateral trading margin. And the moment you have a tokenized instrument as collateral, something that you trust. It starts to become an additional sort of instrument that you could sort of plug into these markets. That is something that we will see a proliferation of, I mean, within the control parameters that exist. So that's to add to what Cynthia said.

22:56客戶參與與市場成熟度觀察

22:56接下來談談客戶。Hunter，我想問你，從大方向來看，哪些客戶積極參與代幣化資產，哪些則較為保守？我想先說，我認為 vaults 很棒，會帶來巨大變革。我們今年才剛進入 vaults 領域，這點一定要強調。這裡有很多值得學習的地方，我們正努力了解市場需求和基礎組件。我認為這是區塊鏈無許可民主化、抵押品代幣化、穩定幣等多元交會的超級令人興奮的領域，非常期待未來發展。I'm going to shift to clients for a moment. Hunter, I'll start with you on this one. Big picture. Who's leaning in? Who's leaning out with respect to tokenized assets? Tokenized assets. Well, I want to be on the record as saying I think vaults are awesome and are going to be transformative. We introduced—we've just entered the vault category this year, so I just want to have shouted that out. There's a lot to learn. We're trying to— Understand what people want and what the building blocks are, but I just think it's a super exciting cross-section of the sort of permissionless democratization of blockchains, the tokenization of collateral, stablecoins, etc. So very, very, very excited about that. On the client side, who's leaning in? Who's— okay.

23:42目前我們服務的客戶非常多元，包括主權基金、捐贈基金、億萬富翁、財富管理人、避險基金、加密貨幣公司，還有一般投資人，遍及美國、歐洲、亞洲。很難一概而論，其他講者的觀察也同樣重要。但我的感覺是，專業投資人進展較快，個人投資人則較為謹慎。我用資料來說明：去年比特幣突破十萬美元後，我相信長期持有者賣出了超過 1,500 億美元的比特幣，這些都是個人投資人，不是機構，也不是理財顧問。So today we serve a very broad cross-section. of clients: sovereigns, endowments, billionaires, wealth managers, hedge funds, crypto entities, for lack of a better term, individuals. We do that across the U.S., Europe, Asia. Interestingly, I have—it's very hard to paint with a broad stroke, and any thoughts from anyone on this panel would be as valid as mine, but Interestingly, my perception has been that the more professional investor is progressing forward, and the more individual investor has seemed timid. And so I'll put some data to that. Last year, after Bitcoin crossed 100,000, I believe that long-time holders of Bitcoin sold north of $150 billion of Bitcoin. That was individuals, and people. That wasn't institutions. That wasn't financial advisors.

24:38這也反映市場成熟度提升，參與者越來越多元。我們兩週前發布了一份報告，訪談了 15 位機構配置者（不是資產管理人），包括捐贈基金、退休基金、企業和一兩個持有比特幣的主權基金，雖然沒公開名字，但都同意分享內容。他們都持有比特幣，沒賣出，還打算再買。這是 15 位機構配置者的真實看法。過去 12 個月很有意思，專業投資人普遍對這個領域持正面態度。如果是自助型客戶，就是自己下單的那種……So the great thing, and I think an element of the maturation of the market is there's a lot of different market participants. But that's a bit of a read. We put out a report about two weeks ago where we shared interviews with 15 institutional allocators, not asset managers, but endowments, pensions, corporates, one or two sovereigns that own Bitcoin, and we didn't use their names, but got their permission to share their words, and they all— They all own Bitcoin. They didn't sell it. They're happy to own it. They might buy more. So that's, you know, word from 15 institutional allocators. And so I think it's been an interesting 12 months, in a sense, because I think that the professional investor has generally felt constructive about the space. The client base, if it's self-directed, so clients coming and actually putting in their own trades,

25:36多元化客戶需求與產品挑戰

25:36或是財務顧問實際上在提供建議和具體推薦。底下有各種不同的客戶類型，他們在加密貨幣曝險或想要涉足資產代幣化的旅程上都處於不同階段。這讓產品推出和教育變得非常困難，因為有些人已經在這個領域很久了，他們想要一個能避險比特幣曝險、又能產生收益的產品；也有人只想要價格曝險；還有人只想要現貨加密貨幣曝險；還有人想要以此作為借貸擔保。這些都需要為客戶量身打造的解決方案。希望未來 AI 代理人也許能幫我們解決這問題，但現在真的很難。Or financial advisors that are actually advising and offering specific recommendations. Underneath that, there's so many different client types that are in different journeys across either their crypto exposure or where they want to go with tokenization. And that's making it very hard to actually roll out products and even educate, because you have some that have been in the space for a long time. They want a product that helps hedge their Bitcoin exposure, provide a yield on it. There's others that just want price exposure. There's others that still want the spot crypto exposure. There's others that want lending on the back of it, and it's that on-demand customized solution for clients. Hopefully agents maybe help solve that for us. But it's really tough.

26:22這也造成環境變得非常複雜，還有一個模糊地帶。像我們的財富管理平台上，家族辦公室和高資產淨值投資人規模跟機構客戶一樣大，自助投資端也是如此。有時候真的很難辨識客戶通路，或是根據客戶類型來區分我們要推什麼產品。It creates a really difficult environment to, and also there's a blurring, right? Because on our wealth platform, we have family offices and high net worth investors that are as large as our institutional clients. And same thing on the self-directed side. It's really tough sometimes to actually identify the client channels and really segregate that by the client or the product that we push down to certain clients.

26:52加密曝險與代幣化的本質差異

26:52我想有一點要釐清，呼應 Amy 的觀點，當你看加密曝險時，重點在於取得管道。這從 Hunter 和 Amy 的說法來看，最早是自助投資，後來變成純執行，現在則轉向顧問服務，這也是 ETP 在投資組合中的定位。至於代幣化，重點則是效用。最早進場的需求主要來自穩定幣使用者，他們本來就把現金放在鏈上，熟悉鏈上的行為模式，對他們來說，這只是鏈上生活的延伸。I think one thing to decouple, just to Amy's point, is like when you look at crypto exposures, it's about access, and that's to sort of—Hunter's point and Amy's point in terms of what started out with self-directed has evolved into an execution only and transforming into advisory, which is where ETPs sort of fit within an investor portfolio. When you look at tokenization, it's about utility. So then you're looking at the initial sort of demand that came in or who leaned in is mainly a stablecoin audience. That holds cash on-chain, already lives on-chain, knows how the behavior is on-chain. So it was almost like an extension of a life that's already being lived on-chain.

27:35現在從機構角度來看，代幣化的重點在於：我已經有這種曝險，那我為什麼要用代幣化形式持有？我能因此獲得什麼 10 倍效益？這正是現在大家在探索的問題。隨著越來越多代幣化工具進入機構投資組合，像是代幣化存款、穩定幣或電子貨幣代幣，依照不同法域而定。問題變成：我有一筆超高流動性的閒置現金，要怎麼運用？我會開始思考市場上有沒有代幣化收益工具可以接入我的投資組合。Now, when you start to think about it from an institutional perspective, from a tokenization standpoint, the idea is like, I have the exposure already. What is that 10x benefit that I'm getting that I should hold this exposure in a tokenized format? That's what is being uncovered right now, which is as more and more tokenized instruments start to get more prevalent in, like, institutional portfolios, tokenized deposits, stablecoins, or e-money tokens, depending on which jurisdiction you are in. The question is, okay, I have this tranche of ultra-liquid cash, which may be idle at some point in time. What do I do with it? So then I'm starting to think about, are there tokenized yielding instruments out there? Which I can sort of plug into my.

28:14我們剛剛也談到包裝形式的不同，這其實也影響投資人行為，因為這些需求是從不同方向匯聚而來。現在還有一個主題是關於以實物轉換（in-kind）方式進入 ETP。我同意你的看法，當我們能真正把這些代幣化資產納入市場時，價值才會真正體現，但現在我們已經看到加密資產以實物轉換方式進入 ETP，這領域非常活躍，也很有趣。So it's sort of, I mean, we spoke about the wrappers in terms of how they're coming in from opposite directions. I feel like that has a bearing in terms of how the investor behavior has been as well, in terms of it coming in from opposite directions and sort of converging somewhere. And then we have this theme around the in-kind transactions to ETPs. So, like, I agree with you. I mean. The value that will come when we're able to take these tokenized assets is yet to even be delivered in the market, but yet we see crypto assets being in-kind moved into ETPs. And that's been, I mean, you've seen it the same way we have. Like, it's been a pretty active space. It's so fascinating.

28:54ETF 實物轉換與投資人行為

28:54為不熟悉這議題的朋友簡單說明，從去年開始，尤其今年更常見，大家會把自己已經持有的比特幣、Solana 等資產，直接換成 ETF 的單位。我們都看到過，這類活動今年有時甚至高達數億美元，真的很有意思。大家覺得 ETF 的好處夠大，寧願持有 ETF 單位而不是現貨資產。我認為最終大家還是會兩者都想要，就像大家有時用現金、有時刷卡、有時用電匯或 ACH 一樣，一個人或機構會用不同形式。這是今年很有趣的發展。Just to describe it for those who are not familiar with what we're talking about, there are—Starting last year, and I think more common for all of us this year, is individuals taking Bitcoin or Solana or whatever that they already own and swapping it for shares of the ETF. And I think we've probably all seen, in some cases, hundreds of millions of dollars of that activity this year, which is sort of fascinating. But people saying the benefits of the ETF feel strong enough. That I'd rather own the ETF shares than the spot asset. I think ultimately, of course, the answer will be that people want a bit of both. In the same way that everyone in the audience sometimes uses cash, sometimes a credit card, sometimes a wire, sometimes an ACH, different formats for, you know, one person, one institution can use different formats. But that has been a fascinating development this year.

29:44我認為 ETF 持有人結構的多元性，反映出不同的使用情境。實物轉換是 ETF 或交易所交易基金的一大優勢，因為投資組合經理不需要真的買賣底層資產來應對申購與贖回。現在 ETP 也能利用這種實物轉換，對投資人來說有稅務效率。我們看到很多轉換來自想把比特幣、以太幣或 Solana 放進 ETF 的投資人，因為 ETF 會負責託管，對他們來說，這代表安全、信任，也方便做資產傳承規劃，不用自己開戶設帳。Yeah, I think the diversity of the ownership population across the ETFs really reflects the different use cases. The in-kind transactions, you know, one of the primary benefits of owning an ETF or an exchange-traded fund is the tax efficiency that comes because the portfolio manager doesn't have to actually buy and sell the underlying asset. In order to accommodate subscriptions and redemptions. And so now the ETPs have been able to take advantage of that in-kind transaction, which is tax efficient to the underlying investor. But what we saw a lot of the conversions were coming from investors who wanted to be able to hold their Bitcoin, for example, or Ether or Solana. In an exchange-traded product where custody was the responsibility of the ETF, and for them that was a combination of things in terms of safety and security in a location that they trusted. There was some estate planning that went along with their thinking in terms of why better to have it through a third-party custodian and not necessarily one that, you know, they had to individually open the account and set up.

31:03Agentic 商業與 AI 結合代幣化

31:03這兩天台上討論的主題之一就是代幣化、數位資產、區塊鏈，這些都是 agentic 商業的絕佳夥伴。我想問台上這些全球領先的資產管理業者，agentic 這個通路你們開始考慮了嗎？還是還停留在科幻階段？我想這裡會有不同觀點。agentic 商業，也就是 agent 參與投資顧問和資產管理的受託行為，這確實值得考慮，而且我知道很多機構都在積極研究。One of the dominant themes that we've heard from this stage over the past couple of days is tokenization, digital assets, you know, blockchains broadly. Being an extraordinary, you know, symbiotic partner to agentic commerce. I'm curious, with some of the world's leading asset managers on the stage, is agentic a channel that you're beginning to consider, or is that still science fiction? So maybe this is where we're going to get a diversity of views. I'd say—Agentic commerce, you know, agents deployed within the fiduciary activity of investment advisors and asset managers is something that should be considered and is actively being considered, I know, across a number of different organizations.

31:57當你看到穩定幣應用情境增加、鏈上現金價值的流通，這已經改變了支付和結算網路。AI 代理人的應用也帶來很多潛在應用情境，但目前還很早，還需要建立整體治理、營運和風險管理框架，才能大規模部署。現在還在研發初期階段。It's something that when you look at the increase in use cases for stablecoins and the ability to be able to transact, you know, cash value on-chain, how that has transformed payment and settlement networks, we're seeing, you know, with the application of AI agents. There are definitely a number of potential use cases, but I think it's still really early days before we can really establish the overall governance and operational and risk management frameworks for how they can actually be deployed at scale. So early days in terms of research and development.

32:41我想從原則層面談，AI 與代幣化的結合為什麼重要？AI 本質上是吸收大量資訊、排序、給你決策，然後你需要用價值去執行這個決策，這就是代幣化的角色。代幣化讓你能用機器可讀的格式表示價值。如果你有一個 AI 工作流程，想要直覺或有機地接入資產，這就是 agentic 商業的起點，比如支付流程需要數位資產，這時穩定幣就派上用場。I think at a principles level, instead of getting into whether we are implementing it or not. At a principles level as to why it matters is if you think about the marriage between AI and tokenization, AI is essentially ingesting a lot of information, sequencing it, providing you a decision. You then need to execute the decision through value, and that's where tokenization comes in. So. If we go by fundamentals in terms of, like, what is tokenization enabling you? It's enabling you to represent value in a machine-readable format. So if you have an AI workflow in which you want to plug in intuitively or organically an asset, which is what has started with agentic commerce in terms of if you have a payment workflow and you need a digital asset to plug into it organically, that's where stablecoins come in. That's been the start point.

33:31如果你把這個旅程延伸下去，Agentic AI 下一步可能做到交割對付款（DVP）：你有一個受監管資產（像貨幣市場基金），還有一個受監管負債（任何鏈上現金），然後由 Agentic AI 平台執行結算。當流程變複雜時，agent 會自動在鏈上執行複雜交易，甚至需要即時購買運算資源。這可能創造出新的市場區塊，agent 執行交易時可以即時買運算力。總之，AI 負責情境判斷，代幣化資產則自然成為執行決策的價值載體。Now, if you actually extrapolate that journey into seeing what could Agentic AI do as a next step, it could potentially do delivery versus payments, where you have a regulated asset like a money market fund or the assets that we spoke about, and a regulated liability, which could be any form of cash on chain, and then that settlement is executed by an Agentic AI platform. Now what tends to happen when you start to get into these sort of journeys is that the transactions could become complex, at which point you have an agent actually running on its own and then executing something extremely complex directly on chain, at which point it could require compute, additional compute on the go. So then that almost creates a possibility for you where there could be a new sliver of a market that's created where, as I'm executing that transaction as an agent, I could buy compute on the go. So the possibilities are endless, but the crux of it remains where AI is essentially contextualization and you have tokenized assets that naturally fit in through, like, execution of that decision with value.

34:35AI 代理人實際應用與投資人分析

34:35我來舉個更貼近現實的例子。大約五到七年前，機構投資端開始有個趨勢：投資團隊會帶著量化分析師來，深入檢視基金的每個資料、風險參數、績效細節，連投資組合經理自己都不一定能看得那麼細。現在 AI 代理人可以為消費者做同樣的分析，讓每個人都能享有這種資訊民主化，還能找出隱藏費用，甚至幫你改善投資組合。資產和財富管理業者必須提供最好的產品，否則 agent 會直接給客戶更好的選擇，這在今天就已經可能發生，不用等到資產代幣化普及。I'm going to give a slightly different, more real-time example. So going back maybe about five, seven years ago on the institutional investing side, we had this trend. So on our investment team, we had institutional clients that were coming in and starting to really get into the details. They'd bring in these quant analysts, and they would just start. Going through every single element of the data of the fund, risk parameters, performance details, and even the portfolio managers themselves didn't really have a good view, a good lens on this risk-return profile down to, like, the nth detail. What an agent can do for consumers now in this day and age. They can start doing that same analysis and really democratizing it down for every consumer, and then also start finding hidden fees. What is there an optimized portfolio position? Now, for asset and wealth managers, you better have the best product out there, or else the agent's going to be providing a trade to that client. And saying maybe there's a better product out there. And that can happen today. I don't even think we have to wait for tokenization to have that in the market.

35:54我想現場問一下大家，有多少人曾經問過 ChatGPT 關於 ETF，或請它幫你找 ETF 投資？大概有 10% 或 20% 的人舉手，蠻有趣的。其實這裡有很多不同的發展方向，但簡單說，AI 與代幣化的結合是不可避免的趨勢。Can I ask? I'd love to actually ask the audience very briefly, if you forgive me, how many of you have asked ChatGPT about an ETF or to try to find an ETF to invest in? I'm so curious. Some, maybe 10%, maybe 20%. Yeah, interesting. So, you know, I think a lot of different vectors on this, but I think the short answer is it's inevitable that these two things are colliding.

36:19快問快答：未來五年與 24/7 交易

36:19好，剩 90 秒，我們來快問快答。你認為五年後有多少客戶會持有代幣化產品？我會說 10%。Hunter 呢？60%，50%、60%、70% 這樣。我想跳過這題。對，我也會說 10%。我們有做過研究，2030 年大約是 10%。All right, we've got 90 seconds. We're gonna do a couple of lightning round questions. Quick answers. What percentage of your clients will hold a tokenized product in five years. Five years. I'm gonna go with 10 in five years. Hunter? 60, 50, 60, 70, something like that. I want to skip this one. Yeah, I was going to say 10%. We put out some research, and by 2030, you know, we were looking at numbers that were around 10%.

36:59下一題，機構端 24/7 交易是高估還是低估？我認為在使用頻率上是高估，但在機會面上是低估，因為有這個選項很重要。適當評價。我覺得它能帶來的潛力被低估，但重點是要強調「即時」或「按需」的 24/7，因為市場品質未必全天候都好，所以某種程度上也可能被高估。我完全同意。未來潛力被低估，但 24 小時全天候交易本身被高估。All right, I'll pivot to overrated or underrated for institutions. 24/7 trading. Overrated or underrated? Overrated in terms of opportunity, or in terms of frequency of use, but underrated in terms of the opportunity set of having it available. Appropriately rated. Underrated in terms of what it can enable, but the nuance is important that we're talking about just-in-time or on-demand. 24 by 7, because market quality may not be appropriate 24 by 7. So in that respect, it might be overrated. Totally agree. Underrated for, like, what it can really do in the future, but overrated in terms of people trading around the clock 24 hours a day.

37:49時間到了，請大家一起感謝我們的與談嘉賓。All right, we're out of time. Please join me in thanking our panelists.