Folius Ventures、Plasma、1000x Media 聊新一輪牛市投資策略

0:00市場變革：2021 到 2026 的最大不同

0:00大家好，很高興在這裡。我是 Avi，1000x Media 的執行長。過去我在 GoldenTree 做過投資組合經理，像很多成功的 PM 一樣，最後跑去做 podcast。今天很開心邀請到 Jason 和 Zaheer 兩位超強投資人，一起來聊聊市場現況，以及為什麼這一輪真的不一樣了。But it's a pleasure to be here, guys. I'm Avi. I am the CEO of 1000x Media. I used to be a portfolio manager at a hedge fund called GoldenTree, and like all successful PMs, left to go start a podcast. So. Today, I have the pleasure of having Jason and Zaheer, two amazing investors, with me, and we're going to be talking about the state of the markets and why this time might actually be different.

0:38謝謝你邀請我們，Avi。我是 Jason，Folius Ventures 的創辦人。以前我們是專注亞太區的混合型基金，投資私募和公開市場。現在我也經營一個小型家族辦公室，橫跨傳統和加密市場投資。Thank you guys for joining. Thank you, Avi, and big fan of your podcast. I watch it every time, and—My name is Jason. I run Folius Ventures. It used to be an APAC-focused hybrid fund, both in private and public markets. But now I also run a mini family office that invests in both traditional as well as crypto markets.

1:01我和這兩位認識很久，也一起交易很久了。我是 Zaheer，Plasma 的 CSO 兼創辦人，也創辦了 Split Research，專門做自營資本交易。以前經營對沖基金，現在都是用自己的錢。我們交易各種平台、加密衍生品、傳統衍生品，最近也越來越多參與預測市場，這已經變成我們的主力了。Thanks for having me, guys, as well. You know, I've known these guys for a long time, traded with them for a long time. Name is Zaheer. I'm CSO and founder at Plasma. And I'm founder at Split Research, where we trade proprietary capital. Used to run a hedge fund, but now that's all, you know, our own money. So we trade across venue. We trade on, you know, all of the crypto derivatives. We trade on the traditional derivatives, and now increasingly so on prediction markets. So we're spending more and more time on that vertical, and that's probably our bread and butter now.

1:342026 年的市場：基本面與現金流成為主流

1:34我想先強調，現在已經是 2026 年，市場跟過去真的差很多。我們這些老屁股在加密圈混了八九年，看過很多輪牛熊，這一輪感覺比以前更真實。現在有很多專案真的有營收、有用戶買單。我想問你們，2021 年成功的專案跟 2026 年成功的專案，最大差異是什麼？So I want to start by pointing out that it's 2026, and the market today is radically different than the market of the past. And I think a lot of people like us, we've been in crypto for eight, nine years now. We've seen a lot of different cycles, a lot of change, and it feels more real today than it has in the past. There are a lot of projects out there that are generating real revenues, that have real customer buy-in. And I want to start by putting it to you, like, what do you guys think? We'll start with Jason. The biggest difference between the successful projects of 2021 versus the successful projects of 2026. What has changed?

2:18我回想過去。那是我第一次開始專業管理資金的時候。總是會有一種衝動，想要追逐那些正在暴漲的東西。我的意思是，這種情況到現在還是存在，但我回想那個時候，收益和回購這種操作其實還不是主流。事實上，直到兩三年前 Hyperliquid 推出之前，這些都還不算是主流。所以，很多時候，至少從旁觀者的角度來看，資產價格為什麼會漲那麼多，其實沒有什麼道理可言。很多時候，我認為在那個時期，背後其實是有小圈子或小團體在推動這些事情，原因有很多。I think back in time. That was when I first started professionally managing money. There was always the urge to chase the things that are pumping. I mean, there's still that today, but I think back during that time, the revenue and the buyback meta were not really a thing. I mean, it hasn't been a thing really until two, three years ago when Hyperliquid launched. So. A lot of times, there's really no rhyme or reason, at least from a bystander's perspective, of why things are going up so much. A lot of times, I think during that time, it was because there are cabal or cabals that are really just driving this thing for a lot of reasons on the back end.

3:00當時的 SPM 就像是，「嗯，我不知道發生了什麼事，但我就是得買。」但如果你快轉到今天，我不是說那種情況已經不存在了，但一般來說，對我和我的投資夥伴們來說，我們其實可以看到各項指標，並且真的相信管理團隊正在做他們所說的事情，然後根據——說來有趣——基本面來投資。我認為這大概就是現在和以前最大的差別。而且我現在也不會像以前那樣，對那些我覺得沒道理的東西產生追逐的衝動。And SPM at the time was like, Well, I don't know what's going on, but I have to buy it. But if you fast forward to today, I'm not saying that doesn't exist. But generally speaking, for me and my fellow investors, we actually get to look at the metrics and actually believe in the management in doing what they're saying they're doing, and actually invest based on, funny enough, fundamentals. And I think that's probably the biggest difference between now and then. And I don't feel the urge of chasing the things that I thought didn't make sense today than before.

3:32是的，我會說過去五年最顯著的最大差異，大概就是現在出現的公司和代幣，顯然都以更真實的方式產生營收，而且對於他們預期如何賺錢，有一個更明確的故事。如果你回顧2021年那個時代，市值最大的代幣幾乎全都是鏈和基金會。現在情況完全不同了，雖然從傳統角度來看，它們依然是最大的，但它們已經沒有那種引領潮流的關注度了。Yeah, I would say that probably the biggest difference that's notable in the last five years is that the companies that, you know, the tokens and companies that have come out are obviously revenue generating in a real way and have a much clearer story of how they expect to make money. If you look back, the largest tokens by market cap in the 2021 era. We're all like chains and foundations. Now that's completely different where, you know, obviously they're still the largest, you know, from a legacy perspective, but they don't have the kind of zeitgeist attention.

4:09這主要是因為他們並不只是單純在賺錢，而人們對於那些，第一，有非常明確營收故事的公司，以及第二，在接下來的12、16、18個月內有更好變現途徑的公司，給予了極高的溢價。所以我認為現在的階段，已經從謹慎的投資人問「這個團隊好嗎？這個專案點子好嗎？」轉變成「他們最終要怎麼賺錢？這怎麼回饋到代幣？我們為什麼真的要在乎這個專案？」這樣的問題。這很合理。And that's mostly because they're not exclusively making money, and people are placing a massive premium on companies that, A, have a, you know, very clear revenue story, and B, have a better monetization pathway over the next, you know, coming 12, 16, 18 months. So I think the stage has shifted from, you know, prudent investors asking, well, is this a good team and good project idea, to, you know, how are they going to end up making money? How does this come back to the token? And why do we actually want to care about this project? Makes sense.

4:42投資流程的轉變：從追風到重視基本面

4:42所以，考慮到這一切，你在評估投資時的流程有什麼改變嗎？也就是說，也許你可以帶我們回顧一下你在 2021 年的投資流程長什麼樣子，因為對某些人來說那段時間很有趣，但答案可能也有點荒謬。然後再談談你現在是怎麼看待專案的。兄弟，那時候我跟你聊天，我就是跟著你喜歡的東西亂買。我現在還是這樣做。但說真的，那時候就像是在玩一場激進的輪動遊戲，你會很積極地在 Twitter 上思考其他人在跟風什麼。And so with all of that, Considered, how has your investment process in assessing changed? Like, what did—I mean, maybe take us through what your investment process looked like in 2021, because that was fun for some people, but the answer is probably kind of ridiculous. Then talk about how you approach projects today. Bro, I talked to you then, and I just, like, ape the things you like. I still do that today. But no, no, seriously, like back then it was, it was like you were playing this aggressive rotational game, and you were like actively on Twitter thinking about what other people are aping.

5:20我非常認同Zaheer的觀點，那段時間正好是DeFi夏天，然後鏈與鏈之間出現了輪動遊戲，你必須去追逐下一個在不同鏈上的DeFi項目。通常發生的情況是，Layer 1通常會先漲，因為那是大家要進場的貨幣。我還記得，那時候有成千上萬件事情同時發生，沒有任何一個有基本面支撐，但全部都有資金流動。那時的市場大概有80%、90%都是輪動交易的資本玩家，大家都準備好要進場。所以當時的遊戲規則就是，如果我要表現得更好，就必須真的去追那些人、追那些資本。And I echo with Zaheer's point, which is during that time there was DeFi summer, and then there was the rotational game between chains where you have to like ape the next DeFi thing on a different chain. And usually what happens is the layer ones usually pump first because that was the currency to APE. And I remember, like, I have—there are like a thousand things happening. None of them have any fundamentals, but they all have the flows. And it was like a market of 80%, 90% rotational traders with capital who are all, like, down to APE. So the game then was, if I have to outperform, like... Have to really chase those people and chase that capital.

5:59現在還是有這種輪動，但大家變得更理性。那些只看動能、不管基本面的人大多被洗掉了，或是賺到夠多錢後轉型成基本面投資。這三個月市場感覺更理性，像 Truffle、Hyperliquid、Uniswap 這些有營收的專案，現在反而是大家最先買的。這感覺比以前好多了。But, but I mean, there are still a lot of that today. But everybody got a little more rational, and the people who are the most momentum-driven that don't care about fundamentals largely got crushed, or they had kind of, you know, gotten so rich that evolved their style into being more fundamental-driven. So the market now, if anything, felt a little more rational, at least in the past three months. It was like, boy, like what I did in Truffle actually works. You know, like Hyperliquid and Uniswap and all these things with revenue is the shit that people actually buy first now. And to me, it felt a lot, a lot better than before.

6:37對啊，我的意思是，回到2021年，那時候大家會說，「喔，這個專案的顏色很好看，我們去買吧。」你懂嗎？當然，我有點在開玩笑，但那時候其實沒有明確的標準來判斷你該買或賣哪一個代幣。當時你會考慮一些事情，比如團隊、背景、募資情況之類的。但除此之外，並沒有什麼明顯的理由讓你選擇買A代幣而不是B代幣。現在就不一樣了——如果一家公司沒有賺錢，或者沒辦法很清楚地解釋它要怎麼賺錢，根本沒有人會討論它，對吧？Yeah, I mean, back in 2021, it was like, oh, the color of this project is nice. Let's go buy it, you know? Obviously. Being a bit facetious, but like, there wasn't a clear criteria for why you should buy our sell a token back then. There were some things that you considered, you know, the team, pedigree, the fundraising, that sort of thing. But after that, there was no, like, discernible reason why you should buy token A over token B. Now it's like—If a company doesn't make money or does not easily explain how it will make money, nobody even talks about it, right?

7:15你知道嗎，我剛才在後台跟Jason聊到這個，他說了一件事，就是，你知道，我持有共識資產，但現在其實有一個真正的共識資產池，大家基本上都不太會偏離這個範圍，對吧？所以，你知道，大家都想買Hyperliquid，大家都想買Lighter，不管是什麼，對吧？像這些資產會賺錢，有非常明確的收益產生路徑，而且沒有什麼花招。沒有什麼奇怪的操作，像是「我們要怎麼讓這個代幣變得更有價值」這種東西。就是這樣，我們會繼續建設，然後會有更多使用者進來，需求也會增加。You know, I was talking to Jason backstage about this, but something he says is that, you know, I own the consensus assets, but now there's a real bucket of consensus assets that people don't really stray outside of, right? So, you know. Everyone wants to buy Hyperliquid. Everyone wants to buy Lighter, whatever it is, right? Like, these are assets that make money, have a very clear, you know, revenue generation pathway, and there's no games being played. There's no exotic, you know, this is how we're gonna, like, make, you know, the token worth a lot more. It's just, yeah, we'll keep building, and more users will come in, and there's more demand.

7:48低流通、高 FDV 遊戲與新資金進場

7:48還有一點很重要，這五年大家都學會了低流通、高 FDV 的遊戲。大家知道做市商會坑人，也知道團隊會在初期用做市商慢慢出貨，所以現在沒人會在 token 上市第一天就進場，雖然 KOL 一直推，但大家知道他們是收團隊錢。這在 2021 年時大家還不懂。Yeah, and sorry, and one more thing I would add, this is very important too, like, I think. In the past five years, people generally understood the low float, high FDV game. Like, they've gotten to know that, like, the market makers are going to fuck us, and they got to understand that, okay, at the low float initially, the teams are going to, like, fucking dump on you through active market makers over time. And they've understood that, boy, I should not buy a token at the, like, the day one when it launches, despite all my KOL shilling me. Because they're getting paid by the fucking team, okay? So, but that was not really widely known back in 2021. No, that's true. That's true.

8:26像 Hunter Biden token 這種東西，2021 年可能會坑死更多人，現在反而沒什麼影響，因為大家都知道這些套路。其實那個 token 只加了 5,000 美元流動性，做市商搞砸了，但我覺得根本就是騙局。The Hunter Biden token would have bankrupted far more people in 2021, which actually didn't really affect the market that much, which is great. Did it launch? It launched, yeah. It launched and then it went straight to zero. And actually, they said that it is because there was only $5,000 of liquidity added to the pool because that market maker messed up. But in reality, I mean, I don't want to get sued, but, like, it probably wasn't. It probably was a grift, an extraction. That's what it seems like. Yeah.

8:58我確實想要問一下，關於那些新進入這個產業的人。你看，從2021年，甚至一直到大約兩年前，2024、2025年，我認為我們並沒有真正的淨成長。加密貨幣產業並沒有真正的淨成長。市場上流動的資金大多還是那些老錢。就像你看到在EVM大戰期間發生的那些遊戲一樣，當新的鏈推出自己的DeFi產品時，資本只是從Ethereum流向Avalanche，再流向Near。這一切都取決於當時哪裡的年化報酬率最高。但現在，似乎真的出現了全新的對加密貨幣的興趣，這是很長一段時間以來第一次。And I do want to ask about, like, the new people coming in. to this industry, right? When you look at 21 and even up until like two years ago, 24, 25, I don't think we were net growing. Crypto wasn't net growing. There's a lot of the same money that was sloshing around. Like when you saw all of the games that were played during the EVM wars, when new chains would just launch their own DeFi products, capital would just move from Ethereum to Avalanche to Near. Based on whoever had the highest APRs at the time. But now there actually seems to be a net new interest in crypto for the first time in a long time.

9:35我很好奇，第一，你們是否同意這個看法，第二，你們覺得這個現象是從哪裡來的？Zaheer，也許因為你在一個面向消費者的產品擔任職位，你可以觀察到是哪些人進來，以及誰真的在使用這些東西。And I'm curious whether, A, you guys agree with that and be like, where is that coming from? I mean, Zaheer, maybe because you have a position at a consumer product, you can see who's coming in and who's actually using the stuff.

9:49新用戶與產業成熟：加密成為主流資產類別

9:49是啊，我的意思基本上就是，整個想法——這其實是很早以前的刺蝟論點——加密原生性其實幾乎沒有什麼溢價，對吧？基本上，我們得到了我們想要的結果，也就是引入機構資本，引入一個嚴肅的體制變革，引入監管。這些事情都發生了。現在這個產業看起來就是這個樣子，而且非常頭重腳輕。大家都很在意少數幾個資產或少數幾個想法，而這其實就是我們這個產業逐漸成熟的一種表現。Yeah, I mean, basically the whole idea, and this is like a hedgehog thesis from way back when, that crypto nativity had very little premium, right? That basically, like, we got the outcome we wanted, which was bring in institutional capital, bring in, you know, a serious regime change, bring in regulation. All of these things happened. Now the industry looks the way it does, and it's very, you know, top-heavy. There's a lot of, you know, care about, you know, a few assets or a few ideas, and that's very much like just a designation of us maturing as an industry.

10:28我認為，當我們在 Plasma 的消費者應用程式上看到全新使用者時，這些人其實根本不在乎加密貨幣。對他們來說，他們只在乎這是不是一種更好的貨幣形式。而我們最後也不再在意穩定幣或其他類似的東西，因為我們就覺得，為什麼任何人需要在意他們用的錢包有這麼笨重的架構、真的很糟糕的使用者介面等等。喔，還要選擇區塊鏈什麼的，這一切都太蠢了。I think when we see, like, for our consumer app at Plasma, when we see, like, net new users, any of these people, like, they don't actually care about crypto. For them, they only care about it insofar as it's a better form of money. And we ended up not caring about stablecoins or anything like that either, because we're just like, well, why should anyone have to care that, like, they're using a wallet and it has this clunky architecture and it's really, like, you know, bad UI and, you know, whatnot. Oh, I have to pick chains and all that. It's like, this is just dumb.

11:01我們最後就專注在，像是，我們要怎麼把這個消費性產品做到最好，給一個可能是加密原生、也可能不是的受眾，他們不一定需要在意這些細節，但最終他們只想要有一個更好、更快、更簡單的基礎網路可以使用。We ended up just focusing on, like, how do we make this, like, consumer product as good as we can for an audience that is maybe crypto native, maybe not, doesn't have to care, but at the end of the day just wants, like, a better, you know, faster, easier rails to exist on.

11:16我認為這其實是進入加密貨幣領域的一種全新方式，就是那些購買ETF的人，那些進行私募投資的人，他們其實並不在意要去了解、要在CT（Crypto Twitter）上活躍，或者要參與所有加密貨幣圈的時代氛圍才能參與。他們有點像是半隻腳踏進來、半隻腳還在外面。我認為，未來五到十年內，絕大多數新進入這個領域的人都會非常中立、沒有特定立場。現在的情況是，幾年前你還必須經營一個只做加密貨幣的基金，但現在這個領域的每個基金都在交易股票，甚至有些還涉足預測市場，當然也還是在加密貨幣領域做一些事情。And I think that's much more of the new kind of entrance into crypto, which is people who are buying ETFs, people who are, you know, Making private placements, they don't want to care about knowing and being on CT and, like, being, you know, involved in all of the, like, zeitgeist of crypto to participate. They're kind of one foot in, one foot out, which I think the vast majority, overwhelming majority of people that are coming in the next five, ten years will be very agnostic. Nowadays, it's, you know, a few years ago, you had to run a crypto-only fund. Now every fund in the space is trading equities, you know, maybe a little bit of prediction markets. They do stuff on, you know, in crypto, obviously.

11:55所以這個領域的本質已經徹底改變了，從原本只是一個資產類別，變成現在是屬於更大投資組合中的一部分，而不再只是單純的一個資產類別，裡面沒有其他你可以接觸的東西。So the space has just dramatically changed its DNA to just be, you know, an asset class that's part of a larger portfolio than it is only an asset class, nothing else that you can touch within it.

12:07我大致上同意。我認為，五年前有一些——我們等一下會討論這個，但五年前大家都相信加密貨幣在所有領域都是最快的賽馬。那時候還沒有 OpenAI 的出現，這個領域吸引了追求極致回報的資本和非常聰明的工程師。然後快轉到五年後，我們發現這些東西其實都沒有效果。當然，有幾個面向是真的有效的，但大多數東西基本上都徹底消失了。而真正有效、大家都能同意的，應該就是穩定幣、支付，以及橫跨所有資產類別（包括藝術品）的賭博行為。I mean, I broadly agree. I think, I think five years ago there were some—We're going to talk about it in a second, but five years ago there was this belief that crypto is the fastest horse on everything. Like that was before OpenAI launched, and both ruthless-seeking capital and really smart engineers come into this space, right? And then fast forward five years, we realized that none of this shit worked. Well, there are a few facets that really worked. But most things just kind of completely died. And the fastest that really worked, I think we can all agree on, is stablecoins, payments, and degenerate gambling across all asset classes, including art.

12:47在這段期間，人工智慧出現了，所以我們出現了人才外流，許多最優秀的工程師流失了，而資本也變得更加理性化。現在他們開始相信這個產業其實是金融科技的一個子領域，但它未來還有一到二十年的時間可以持續高速成長。在我看來，這個產業目前的狀態，其實非常類似於2003、2004年時的Web2產業。當時大家已經意識到，網路並不是像1999年時所承諾的那樣，什麼都能做好，但它在搜尋、電子商務和社群這幾個領域卻表現得非常出色。And during this time, AI happened, so we got a brain drain from the best engineers, a lot of the best engineers, and the capital become a lot more rationalized. And they have now come to believe that this sector is one that is a subsector of fintech, but it has potentially another decade or two ahead of it of aggressively compounded growth. The state of this industry, at least in my opinion, now is very similar to the Web2 industry back in 2003, 2004, which is back in the days, people have come to realize that internet is not good at everything that was promised in '99. But it was incredibly good at search, e-commerce, and social.

13:25所以，中國和美國現在大概有四、五家公司，已經成為你知道的那種市值一兆美元的公司，而且每年都能以30%的速度複利成長。我認為同樣的事情也正在加密貨幣領域發生，現在有大約五到十家公司，你可以預見他們未來幾年會持續積極擴張，因為他們有優秀的管理團隊和資本。大家買進這些公司，就像他們會去買進Mag 7（七大科技巨頭）一樣，我認為。而現在這些願意承擔風險的資本，在我看來，其實也是類似的。對，沒錯，完全同意。So there are like four or five companies in China and in the U.S. just became, you know, trillion-dollar companies that compound at 30% per year. I think the same thing is happening in crypto, and there are a handful of maybe five to ten companies that you know they're just going to aggressively ramp for years to come with good management teams and the capital. are buying them like they would be buying the Mag 7s, I think. And the risking capital today are, you know, similar, in my opinion. Yeah, no, 100%.

13:54從投機到長期投資：加密產業的成熟

13:54我覺得從我的角度來看，真正有趣的是，這是第一次加密貨幣以及正在建立的公司，感覺它們可以作為投資，而不只是短線交易。這真的很驚人，你回頭看看，過去那些最熱門的專案，其實都只是像爆米花一樣的短線交易。它們會暴漲一百倍，然後又直接崩跌。而這是因為當時人們談論基本面時，其實指的是分析三十秒的營收。就像，「我們今天賺了五美元，然後你知道，接著賺了十美元，現在賺了一百美元，這個趨勢會一直持續下去」，但事實根本不是這樣。I think what's really interesting from my perspective is that for the first time, crypto feels, and the companies that are being built feel like they can be investments as opposed to trades. It's amazing, you look back. And so many of the hottest projects back in the day were just these popcorn trades. They would go up 100x and then they'd come straight down. And that's because when people talked about fundamentals back then, what they really meant was analyzing 30-second revenues. It's like, yeah, we made like $5 today, and, you know, then we made $10, and now we made $100, and it's just going to keep going at that rate, and it just absolutely wasn't true.

14:32但現在我們終於有一些公司是真的在穩定賺錢，而且你可以用更長期的時間框架來評估他們。因此，這讓你更容易真正把資本停放在這裡。我認為這非常重要，因為加密貨幣已經從過去只適合交易者的避風港，變成了一個真正適合長期投資者發展的地方。But today we finally have companies that are actually making money consistently, and that you can evaluate them along a longer-term time frame. And so that makes it easier to really park your capital. And I think that's really important, as crypto has gone from a haven for traders to a place that really investors should thrive long term.

14:52我想如果回顧過去，Bitcoin 算是唯一一個我當時願意投資的標的。對，這是我當時感到安心的投資。現在在這個領域裡，我已經有多個投資是我覺得可以放心投入的。這其中一部分原因，也像我們剛剛討論過的，是因為很多交易資金已經流向其他地方了。加密貨幣之所以當初這麼熱門，其中一個原因就是它是最適合交易的地方。但現在情況已經不是這樣了。當你看到股票市場劇烈波動時，比如 Sandisk 一天可以漲 15%、20%，隔天又跌 20%，這其實是一個很棒的交易市場。對，有時候甚至比加密貨幣還容易交易。沒錯，而且亂象也比較少。I think if I look back, Bitcoin was kind of the only investment. Yeah, that I was comfortable making. And now there are multiple investments that I'm comfortable making in this area. And part of that is also, as we were talking about before, due to the fact that a lot of the trading money has gone elsewhere. One of the reasons that crypto had so much of a bid is because it was the best place to trade. Like, now that's not true. When you have equities whipping around, I mean, you've got Sandisk going up 15, 20% a day and then down 20% the next day. That's a great market to trade. Yeah, and actually is sometimes easier to trade than crypto. Yes, and there's less fuckery.

15:28針對這一點，現在確實有一個值得討論的問題，就是這個產業，也就是這個金融科技子產業，在未來的任何一段時間內，是否擁有最高的內部報酬率（IRR）。你可以很容易地主張，生技產業在接下來幾年內的某個時點，會有最高的IRR，或者AI會有。而也許加密產業也會有，但那通常只發生在它的交易量被壓抑、然後出現均值回歸並伴隨本益比擴張的時候。但如果你把時間拉長到五年，也許我不太確定加密產業是否真的擁有最高的成長潛力。And to that point, like, there's a real question to be had now on whether this sector, this, like, fintech subsector, has the highest IRR in any given period of time into the future. Like, you could easily argue that biotech at a given point in time in the next few years. at the highest IRR, or AI does. And maybe crypto does as well, but only during a time where it has suppressed transactional volume and has this, like, mean reversion alongside multiple expansion. But if you extend it out maybe five years, like, I'm not really sure crypto has, like, the highest growth potential.

16:44產業分化與投資策略：買贏家還是買競爭者？

16:44我們是不是還能把這產業叫做 crypto？其實現在市場分化很大，Bitcoin 的 CAGR 可能沒那麼好，但像 Hyperliquid、Lighter、CHIPS、Grass 這些有營收的專案就很強。現在可以一家公司一家公司評估，不再是全市場一起動。以前我每次這樣講，市場就一起暴漲 300%，大家還是跟著 Bitcoin 走。但如果現在要配置資產，你會怎麼想？Let me take a step back and actually ask, like, do you think it's fair to characterize this industry as crypto anymore in the first place, right? And—My take on that is maybe not, right? Like, there's more dispersion in the market than there's ever been before. It's like, well, I think the CAGR for Bitcoin might look not so great, maybe for Hyperliquid or Lighter or another revenue-generating project like CHIPS or Grass or whatnot, it looks good. And we can start evaluating things on a company-by-company basis. I'm curious, like, your take on that. I mean, I feel like every time that I've said that, the entire market explodes, and, like, everything goes up 300% together, and everyone looks at me and they're like, I hope you're wrong. There was no dispersion. Everything just moves with Bitcoin. But I'm curious, like, if you're allocating today, how are you thinking about it?

17:36我有一個看法，不過你可以先說。也可以我先說。我同意。我認為加密貨幣現在大概有三個使用案例。第一個是像比特幣這樣的價值儲存。也許你會想要隱私型代幣，我不確定。第二個部分是交易，像是更輕量、流動性超高的那種東西。然後第三個使用案例是穩定幣、支付基礎設施，這一類的領域。除此之外，你也可以把資產代幣化放在這裡的某個位置。那是基礎設施，不一定是你可以直接去質押的資產類別。但我認為加密貨幣的承諾，大致上已經被實現了。I have a view, but you can go first. I can go first. I would agree. I think crypto is probably like three use cases now. There's like store of value with, you know, Bitcoin. Maybe you want privacy tokens, I don't know. There's the second tranche, which is trading, lighter, hyperliquid, that sort of thing. And then there's this third use case, which is stablecoins, payment infra, that sort of universe. Outside of these three things, and then you can put tokenization somewhere, you know, of assets somewhere here. That's infra. That's not, you know, an asset class that you can necessarily go and, you know, back in a sense. But I think the promises of crypto have been delivered broadly.

18:23我認為大家真的很希望它成為別的東西，但它其實就是金融基礎設施，對吧？這本來就是最初的目標，就是要打造金融基礎設施。而金融基礎設施又可以再分成三個類別：主權不可變的貨幣、交易基礎設施，還有資金流動。等等，所以我們不會在區塊鏈上追蹤咖啡嗎？對，沒錯，對吧？像Dentacoin那種夢想——很遺憾，並不會發生，對吧？我認為加密貨幣已經實現了它所有的承諾。我覺得只是大家希望它變成別的東西，而且希望它更有吸引力，但這從來就不是我們要做的那一塊。I think people really wanted it to be something else, but It is financial infrastructure, right? That was, like, the original goal, was to create financial infrastructure. And financial infrastructure can be bucketed in, again, three categories: sovereign immutable money, trading infrastructure, and, you know, the movement of money. Wait, so we're not going to be tracking coffee on the blockchain? Yeah, correct, right? Like, the Dentacoin dream is, like—Unfortunately, not happening, right? Like, we're—I think crypto has delivered on every one of its promises. I think people just wanted it to be something different, and they wanted it to be a lot sexier, and that's just not a part of the game that we were ever meant to do.

19:06我的意思是，Ethereum 兌現了它的承諾，Bitcoin 也兌現了它的承諾，這些較新的應用程式、錢包，不管你怎麼稱呼它們，也都兌現了它們的承諾。我認為交易所可能會感到相當不滿，因為他們原本希望這一切能永遠持續下去，然後一直賺錢。所以，你知道，這種情況已經逐漸消退了。而我認為，結果就是大家想要有更多可以投機的東西。但最初的目標一直都是金融基礎建設，這一點已經實現並且持續成長，大家也都在支持這一塊，而且——現在沒有任何一家新出現的支付公司不是在做 stablecoin 相關的事情，也沒有一家不是在募資，像是幾億美金等級的募資，對吧，或者是在交易領域。所以這一切都正在發生。只是目前為止，大家不太喜歡這個結果。I mean, Ethereum delivered on its promise, Bitcoin delivered on its promise, the newer applications, wallets, whatever you want to call it, have delivered on their promise. I think exchanges are probably pretty upset because they wanted this, like, to keep running forever and, like, make money. So, you know, that kind of died out. And I think as a result, people wanted something more to speculate on. But the original intent was always financial infrastructure, which has been delivered and is growing, and people are backing and, like—There's not a single payments company that's coming out these days that isn't doing something in the stablecoin space and is also not raising, you know, multi-hundred million dollar raises, right, or in the trading space. So it's all happening. People just don't like the outcome so far.

19:52我認為人們不喜歡這個結果的其中一個原因，也是因為很難知道該把錢放在哪裡，對吧？對啊。所以如果穩定幣真的大爆發，你要從哪裡獲得報酬呢？這是一個核心問題。我的意思是，你是要買Circle嗎？還是要買Coinbase？你其實沒辦法真的買Tether。也許你可以偷偷參加他們的募資輪，但大多數人根本做不到。對。所以問題變成，隨著加密貨幣吞噬世界，機會到底流向哪裡？作為一個投資人，你要把錢投在哪裡才有用？嗯，我有我個人的看法。我覺得你應該買Stripe，但這很難。I think one reason that people don't like the outcome is also that it's hard to figure out where to put your money, right? Yeah. So if stablecoins, like, absolutely blow up. Where are you making your return? And that's a core question. I mean, are you buying Circle? Are you buying Coinbase? Like, you can't really buy Tether. Maybe you can, like, sneak your way into their fundraising rounds, but, like, most people can't do that. Yeah. And so the question becomes, as crypto eats the world, where does the opportunity go? Like, can you put, as an investor, where do you put your money to work? Well, I think I have a personal view on that. I think you buy Stripe, but it's hard.

20:25我認為你會買Stripe，是因為它之前的成長率大約是15%、20%，但今年上半年卻成長了40%。這是因為加密貨幣的關係，還是整體表現？這主要是因為agentic payments，但同時也因為他們在許多層面整合了加密貨幣。順帶一提，Stripe每年處理的交易量大約是1.8到2兆美元。在任何時刻，Stripe平台上的浮存資金大約有150到200億美元，所以大約是Circle的四分之一。如果他們想發行穩定幣，明天就能變成Circle的四分之一規模。他們選擇不這麼做，有很多原因。I think you buy Stripe because it was growing at maybe 15, 20% previously, but it grew 40% first half of this year. And is that because of crypto or just in general? It was because of agentic payments, but it was also of them integrating crypto in many facets. And by the way, like—At any given, like, it does like maybe 1.8 to 2 trillion of transactions, million dollars transactions. At any given point, the float that Stripe has on platform is like 15 to 20 billion dollars, so a quarter of Circle. If they want to do stablecoin, they could become like a quarter of Circle tomorrow. They chose not to for a lot of reasons.

21:07但我認為，如果你想要接觸穩定幣，Stripe 是一個非常好的選擇。但回到更廣泛的觀點，我認為 Bitcoin 和其他所謂的超高流動性資產本質上是不同的。那麼，未來推動 Bitcoin 的關鍵因素是什麼？我不知道，但它會比 AI 發展得更快嗎？你可以說它們其實是相反的，甚至是正交的投資方向。但對於其他這些超高流動性的資產來說，它們會以多快的速度複利增長？它們會以全球採用這些金融科技技術來進行交易支付和穩定幣支付的速度來複利增長。But I think Stripe is a really good exposure if you want stablecoin. But to the broader point, I think Bitcoin is fundamentally different than the rest of, you know, like the hyperliquids of the world. And what is the kicker of Bitcoin going forward? I don't know, but is it going to be faster than AI? You could argue they are actually opposites, opposite or orthogonal trades. But for the rest of the sort of the hyperliquids of the world, how fast are they going to compound it? They're going to compound at the pace at which the world adopts, you know, this fintech technology onto trading payments and stablecoin payments.

21:43而且這個速度會非常快，我不確定它會不會比 AI 被採用的速度還要快。所以，公平來說，如果你在買這些超高流動性的資產，它們充其量也只是 B 輪、C 輪的新創公司。因此，照理來說，它們的成長速度應該會比 Nvidia 還要快。所以，也許你可以因此獲得更高的報酬。但整體來看，也許你持有這些東西的報酬，並不會比你去買 Cognition 或者像 Prometheus 這種公司，在某個 C 輪比例、C 輪估值時獲得的報酬還要高。但這就是我的論點。And it's going to be coming at a pace, I don't know if it's going to be faster than the pace at which AI gets adopted. So, to be fair, you know, if you're buying these hyperliquids, they are at best Series B, Series C startups. So naturally, they should have a faster growth rate than Nvidia. So maybe you get a higher return that way. But as a whole, maybe you don't get a higher return on owning those things versus buying, I don't know, Cognition or, you know, like Prometheus at whatever C-ratio, C-valuation. But that's my argument.

22:14贏家通吃與創投困境：市場競爭新格局

22:14我對這個有一個特別的理論，那就是從歷史上來看，實際上買進次要公司、落後者，回報都非常好。在加密貨幣領域，買進競爭對手的表現也非常好，因為大家都在爭奪第一名的位置。而我認為現在這個情況正在改變，贏家正在持續成長並且吞噬市場佔有率。所以你必須要轉變你的心態，因為過去在加密貨幣產業中，轉換成本非常低，因為這個產業裡的每個人都是早期採用者。而當你是早期採用者時，你的心態就是：只要有新產品出現在我面前，我都會去嘗試使用。I do have a theory on this specifically, which is that historically, it actually paid very well to buy the secondary company, the laggards. In crypto, it paid very well to buy the competitors because there was so much jostling for the first place. And I think that that's changing right now, where the winners are just continuing to grow and just eat market share. And so you have to shift your mentality from, okay, there used to be very low switching costs in crypto because everyone in this industry was an early adopter. And when you're an early adopter, you're Mindset is, I'm going to use every new product that comes across my table.

22:50現在，這個產業裡的參與者組成已經不一樣了，而且他們其實比較不可能是早期採用者。事實上，他們更有可能——我不一定會把那些因為 FOMO 而進場的人稱作鏈上應用的早期採用者，而且他們可能比四年前用錢包上鏈、那時候還很難入門和使用的人，更容易被困在那裡。對吧，所以現在我們處在一個贏家會持續贏下去的市場。因此，非常有可能，未來成長率最高的，會是那些最大型的公司。這是我現在開始慢慢理解並調整配置的地方。我以前總是試著去買貝塔值高的標的，但現在我不這麼做了。Now, the set of participants in this industry are different, and they're much less likely to be early adopters, actually. They're more likely, like I wouldn't necessarily call people on FOMO, like early adopters of on-chain usage, and they're probably more stuck there than somebody using a wallet on-chain four years ago when it was a lot more difficult to onboard and use. Right, and so now we're in a market where the winners are going to keep winning. And so it's very possible that, like, the largest companies are the ones that have the highest growth rates going forward, right? And that's something that I think I'm starting to wrap my head around and allocate. I used to always try to buy the betas, and now I don't do that.

23:39說實話，你現在還是可以這麼做，比如說做一些比較輕量、變異型的東西。因為市場上有這麼多風險資本，也許他們還是會拉盤。但是，對我來說，這種玩法很難。市場還有很大的成長空間，這是肯定的。我認為加密貨幣在上一個週期裡犯下的最大錯誤之一，主要是由創投資本家造成的，當他們因為無法拿到一線項目的配額，就開始支持競爭對手的項目。這完全毀了市場，因為現在你會看到，比如說，產品A像是Uniswap，然後又有產品B出現，是一個更差的去中心化交易所。Yeah, to be fair, you can still do that, like the lighter, the variational. Like there's some, because there's so much risk capital, maybe they still pump. But, but I mean, it's hard for me to play that. The market has a lot to grow. Yeah, for sure. Yeah. I think one of the biggest sins that crypto committed in the last cycle was mostly perpetrated by venture capitalists when they started backing competitor projects just because they couldn't get allocation into, like, the tier one. And that, like, completely destroyed the market because then now you have, like, a—Worst team than, like, let's just say, like, product A, like you have Uniswap, and then there's product B that's like a worse DEX that comes out.

24:06結果導致資本被過度分散，很多人在追求選出最好的項目時都賠了錢，總體來說，這個領域的狀況變得更糟。這並不是一種積極的競爭，而只是投資人進來說：「好吧，我們錯過了這個機會，那就找下一個，然後立刻投資。」這顯然是我們在那一輪週期中遇到的一個大問題。現在這種情況已經稍微平息下來了。你必須買入這個類別的領導者。這也是為什麼加密領域的創投基本上已經完全死掉了。這不是一個正在成長的領域。你會說加密創投基本上已經死了嗎？It ended up fragmenting so much capital, and so many people lost money in the pursuit of, like, picking the best one, that net the space is worse off. There wasn't, like, active competition. It was just, like, investors coming in being like, okay, we missed this trade, let's find the next one and immediately fund it. And that was obviously, like, a big problem that we had from that cycle. It kind of died down now. You have to buy the category leader. That's also why venture capital in crypto, like, is completely dead as well. It's not a growing space. Is that, like, you would say that venture in crypto is basically dead?

24:37基本上，從各種指標來看，這個領域幾乎可以說是死掉了，因為原本那些規模較大的加密原生基金，現在全部都變成多重任務型基金了。他們已經不只做加密貨幣了。那他們現在大多在看什麼？其實我也不太清楚。我唯一聽到的，大概就是支付公司。而問題在於，我自己現在也在支付這個領域大約一年半的時間，我不是這方面的權威，但他們其實也不是。我甚至不知道他們現在在評估什麼項目。所以現在這個領域只剩下少數幾個有品質的投資人，其他大部分的人就……It's basically, it's, like, virtually dead from every metric because there's no, like, the few crypto-native funds that existed that were large scale, they all have multi-mandate now. To do more than just crypto. What are they mostly looking at now? I really don't know. I mean, the only thing that I end up hearing is, like, payments companies. And the problem is, like, I mean, again, I've been in the space now for about a year and a half on the payments side. I'm not an authority on this, but, like, they also are not an authority on this. I don't even know what they're underwriting, you know? So there's only a handful of quality investors left in the space. Most of the other ones that, like, kind of...

25:12你知道，現在大家都在轉向多資產類別，或者說，顯然已經大幅偏離了原本的投資授權。我認為這在當時其實對市場造成了相當大的傷害。諷刺的是，在過去四年的傳統創投領域裡，Thrive Capital 大概已經是這個領域裡最知名的基金了。他們只做一件事，就是全力支持最優秀的公司。他們會參與 OpenAI 的 290 億美元融資輪，因為他們認為這就是最好的公司，我們就是要去投資它，就是這麼簡單。我認為加密創投其實有點太晚才開始理解這一點。現在新創公司出現時，最優秀的那些公司馬上就會被搶投。You know, are now moving to, like, multi-asset class or, you know, obviously butchering the mandate quite a bit. I think that ended up hurting the market quite aggressively back then. Ironically, like, in the last four years of traditional venture, like, Thrive Capital is probably, like, the best-known fund in the world at this point in that world. And, like, they do one thing, which is they top-blast the best company. That exists. They'll do the $29 billion round for OpenAI because they're like, this is the best company. We're going to go fund it, and, like, that's going to be that. And I think crypto venture started to understand this a little bit too late. When companies are now coming out, the best ones just immediately get bid.

25:53沒有空間讓其他人進來，然後也沒有人真的想要再去買那些二級資產或進行交易之類的。我其實不太喜歡拿Light或Hyperliquid來舉例，因為這兩個團隊都非常有能力，他們真的很努力在打造核心產品。但很明顯地，有一長串的抄襲者，這些專案只是這些團隊的衍生品，最後根本沒有真正做出什麼成果。There's no room for, like, someone else coming in, and nobody really wants to buy the secondary asset or trade or whatever anymore. And I don't like the light or hyperliquid example because these are both very competent teams that are, you know, really trying to build like a core product. But there's obviously like a long list of, like, you know, copycats that are derivatives of these that end up not actually materializing.

26:17產業下一步：用戶體驗、行銷與贏家通吃

26:17你們覺得接下來要解決的重大問題是什麼？就是，什麼東西真的會讓我們突破？我們只要解決這個問題，就能突然迎來新的人加入。像是，有沒有什麼我們還需要解決的重大問題，還是說這只是一個緩慢、穩定成長的過程，最終我們一定會到達，只是一步一步前進而已？ 嗯，我覺得我們其實已經差不多到了。對，我認為現在就看這個產業怎麼執行了。也許像 SEC 和 Clarity Act 還可以做得更多，但——你現在已經有回購不被視為證券了。所以如果一家公司正在成長，他們就可以把這個變成一個現金價值累積的工具。這對產業來說非常好。What do you guys think the next major problem to solve is? Like, what is really going to break us open? We can fix this, and then we can suddenly onboard. New people. Like, what is, is there a major problem that we still need to solve, or is this just like slow, steady growth and we're going to get there and it's just a march? Ooh. I think we're kind of already there. Yeah. I think it's up for the industry to execute. Like, I mean, maybe the SEC and the Clarity Act could do more, but—You already have buybacks not being security. So if a company is ramping, they could just turn this into a cash value accruing vehicle. Very good for the industry.

26:58代幣化股票和RWA基本上是合法的。所以每個認真投入這個領域的參與者，都在積極擴展。因此，現在重點就變成創意和消費性產品。要把更多產品帶上鏈，然後積極擴大使用者基礎。我認為，這個產業正進入高速複合成長的模式，這對於那些表現突出的領導者來說，更有利於進行併購或投資。Tokenized stocks and RWAs is pretty much legal. So every player who is serious, ramping aggressively in that area. So now it kind of comes down to creativity and consumer products. bring more products on-chain and then aggressively growing the customer base. I think, like, the industry is, like, going into this high Kager mode, which is all the more conducive to buying the leaders who are crushing, I think.

27:27我不同意。我認為還有很多地方可以大幅改善。我覺得，不管是在任何加密相關的基礎設施或前端，互動性基本上是零。我們現在其實就是在嘗試用一種我認為在消費金融領域有道理的方式來解決這個問題。而且我認為，各國開始以更快的速度採用穩定幣或數位支付網路。但現實是，這些東西其實比現有的系統好太多了。對於大多數人、對於大多數國家來說，現有的東西根本沒得比，只是我們跟這些新技術互動的方式將會有劇烈的改變。Yeah, I disagree. I think there's a lot of things to get way better. I think, you know, the interaction on any, like, crypto-related... Infra or, like, front end is, like, zero. I mean, we're literally trying to solve this problem in a way that I think makes sense on the consumer finance side. And I think, like, countries are starting to adopt, you know, let's just say stablecoins or digital rails at a much faster rate. But I think the reality is that, like, this stuff is just so much better. Then what exists out there for most people, for most countries, it's just how we interact with it is going to dramatically change.

28:08這顯然就是我們Plasma公司的整個核心理念，也是我們想要推廣並傳遞出去的東西。但我認為這同樣適用於Lighter、Hyperliquid，以及所有的交易、代幣化股票和RWA。對於任何使用銀行、券商或類似服務的使用者來說，這些產品的使用體驗應該要完全一樣。它應該是一個非常熟悉、非常容易上手的系統，所有繁瑣的工作都應該在後台自動完成。再強調一次，我們是金融基礎設施。作為這個領域的一份子，我們並不是在打造一個通訊軟體，也不是以同樣的方式在公共領域做事。完全正確。That's obviously, like, you know, the whole MO of, you know, our company at Plasma and what we want to kind of evangelize and put out there. But I think it applies also for the lighters and hyperliquids and all the trading and tokenized stocks and, you know, RWAs. Like, the usage should feel Completely the same to any user who uses a bank or a, you know, brokerage or anything like this. It should be a very familiar, very simple-to-use system that is doing all of the legwork in the background. Again, we are financial infrastructure. We're not, as a space, we're not, you know, we're not building a messaging app. You know, we're not doing things in the public sphere in the same way. 100%.

28:49坦白說，我對這個問題的答案就是行銷。這就是行銷，而「認知」是我們目前最後一個需要改變的重大事情，這是我個人的看法。像是，我們要怎麼接觸到新的族群，這個問題的解決方式不是靠讓區塊鏈變得更快。我們現在甚至也不是靠提供更好的使用者體驗來解決。我認為使用者體驗已經達到應有的水準。現在真的就是要想辦法出現在對的人面前。你現在可以看到像 Pump 和 FOMO 這些人，他們正在運用這些新的手法，像是 UGC 行銷。I mean, candidly, my answer to this is marketing. Like, that's marketing and perception is the last major thing that we need to change, in my personal opinion. Like, how do we get in front of new people is not—we're not solving it by getting a faster blockchain. We're not solving it by even having a better user experience right now. I think the user experience has caught up to where it needs to be. It literally is just about getting in front of the right people. And you're seeing this now with people like Pump, right, and FOMO. They're employing these new techniques, UGC marketing.

29:23他們正在開拓新的管道，像是在 TikTok、Instagram 上，他們真的能夠接觸到新的群眾，並且用有創意的方式讓這些人進入這個領域。而這其實就是我們最後需要做的主要事情。我認為，過去很長一段時間，加密貨幣有形象上的問題，現在則是要修正這個形象，讓大家開始使用一個已經更好、更有趣，最後還能讓你省錢、賺更多錢的產品。我認為，這比以前的問題簡單多了，以前的問題是 100%——你如果是正派的人，就絕對不能被認定為證券，你也不會想被 SEC 盯上，然後像是……They're pushing out on new channels, on TikTok, on Instagram, and they're actually getting in front of new people and onboarding them in creative ways. And that's kind of the last. Major thing that we need to do is, I think for a long time crypto had a perception problem, and now it's about fixing that perception and getting people to use a product that is already better, that is already more fun, and that already ends up with you probably saving and making more money at the end. I just thought that's a much easier problem than what was before, which is it's 100%. You can't be a security if you're a legit guy, you don't want to be at the SEC's crosshairs, and then, like...

29:59你不能將股票代幣化，不然你就會進監獄。你知道，你以前不能做這些事情。但現在你可以了，而產品和行銷，我認為那些都是可以解決的基本功和挑戰。對我來說，這對投資人而言代表什麼呢？就是，這很棒，現在市場完全開放，所以就讓最強的團隊勝出吧。所以只要買進贏家，持有所有的貝塔，然後放輕鬆就好。至少對我來說是這樣。You cannot tokenize a stock or you go to jail. You know, you cannot do any of these things. But now you can, and the product and the marketing, like, I think those are all blocks and tackling and solvable. And what that means as an investor for me is that, okay, this is great. Like, it's wide open, so let the best team win. So just buy the winners, own all the betas, and just chill. At least that's me.

30:22未來看好標的與結語

30:22在我們剩下的最後一分鐘，我想問問你們，有沒有什麼你們特別喜歡的加密貨幣專案，不是Hyperliquid或Lighter的那種。就是有沒有什麼你們最近關注、覺得在場聽眾之後一定要去研究一下的項目。這不是財務建議。嗯，我的意思是，你知道，掛在我名字底下的那家公司其實也蠻有趣的，可以去看看。但如果撇開這個不談，我其實很喜歡借貸這個領域。我覺得這會是一個非常值得關注的領域。現在有新的競爭者進來，我認為這會成為未來幾個月成長最快、規模最大的面向消費者的應用之一。它會像是——你知道，成為未來幾個月消費者應用的金融基礎設施。With our last minute here, I want to ask you guys if you have any favorite projects in crypto that aren't Hyperliquid or Lighter. Like anything that you're looking at that you're like, anyone listening here needs to go research this later. It's not financial advice. Yeah, I mean. You know, the company under my name is kind of an interesting one. Go check it out. But I think outside of that, I really like the lending space. I think that's going to be a very interesting space to watch. New competition is coming in, and I think that's going to be one of the larger, faster-growing consumer-facing applications that, you know, that's going to work as a—You know, financial plumbing for consumer-facing applications in the coming months.

31:10所以我覺得那應該是值得關注的領域。我開始在Layer Zero上做一些研究。好啊。我聽說他們很不錯。我聽說最近有一集Podcast在講他們。對，我有聽說，還有ThousandX。對，Avi Feldman這個人好像做了一個很不錯的訪談，是訪問他們的創辦人，我覺得蠻好的。對對對。所以我還在研究，不過，我是說，Brian真的很厲害。他很長一段時間都很努力。他從來沒有放棄。我覺得，他打造的技術，似乎正好符合這個世界在所有資產上鏈、代幣化過程中所需要的東西。所以，我還在研究。很厲害。So I think that's probably the space to watch. I'm starting to do work on Layer Zero. Okay. I've heard they're good. I've heard there was a recent podcast about them. Yeah, I've heard, or a ThousandX. Yeah, this guy Avi Feldman did a pretty good job interviewing the founder, I think so. Yeah, yeah, yeah. So I'm still doing work, but I mean, Brian shipped. For a very long time, he grinded. He never gave up. And I don't know, the tech he built seems to be in a pretty good position to what the world needs with all the tokenization going on chain. So, I don't know, I'm still doing work. Amazing.

31:43謝謝大家收聽我們閒聊 30 分鐘，感謝現場觀眾，祝大家有個美好的一天！All right, well, guys, thank you so much, and thank you to the audience for listening to us ramble for 30 minutes. We appreciate you, and I hope you have a great rest of your day. Thank you.