MetaMask、Robinhood 談鏈上資產的標準與流動性

0:00從黃皮書到鏈上資產：以太坊的演進

0:00大家好。Joe，你從以太坊還只有黃皮書的時候就參與其中了。其實更早是白皮書，Vitalik 寫了白皮書，Gav 寫了黃皮書，那是 2013、2014 年的事。現在已經 2026 年了，我們有了鏈上股票、實體資產。這些都是你一開始就在談的事。甚至在區塊鏈還沒上線前，你就已經在想這些應用。我相信你那時就在想：我們可以用這個來結算實體資產。現在我們終於走到這一步。跟我聊聊這段旅程，現在真的實現了，你有什麼感覺？Hello everyone. Joe, you have been around Ethereum since it was a yellow paper. And every year, white paper first. Before it was yellow. Before it was yellow. Vitalik was the white paper. Gav wrote the yellow, yeah. And that was way back 2013, 2014. It's now 2026, and we have tokenized equities, real-world assets on chain. That was what you were talking about day one. I'm sure before the blockchain was even live, you were like, okay, this stuff. We can settle assets, real-world assets with this. Now we're finally here. Talk to me about that journey and how it finally actually feels to be here.

0:49是的，我認為，如果你回顧比特幣的起源，那是一群對體制、對中心化極度不信任的人，他們非常關注財務，很多人只是想保護自己的資產。而以太坊的開發者社群則是一個建設者社群。以太坊的目標是打造一台世界電腦，是建立一個可信中立、去中心化、抗審查的平台，讓任何人都能在上面建構應用，而且不會被下架。我們知道我們在打造一項非常強大的技術，在我看來，這幾乎必然會改變世界。我們也知道，世界上有各種不同的政治哲學與體制，我們必須讓技術成熟，並且逐步思考如何將這項技術融入現實世界的系統。So, yes, I think, so if you look at where Bitcoin came from, it was a bunch of people that had deep distrust in the system, in centralization, and they were— Very financially focused. A lot of them were trying to protect their assets. The Ethereum builder community was a builder community. Ethereum was about building a world computer. It was about building a credibly neutral, decentralized, censorship-resistant platform so that anybody could build. On it, and they couldn't be deplatformed, essentially. And so we knew that we were building a very powerful technology that had the potential, in my opinion, was almost certain to transform the world. And we knew that there were a lot of different political philosophies and political systems, and That we'd have to mature our technology and over time figure out how to integrate our technology into the actual systems of the world.

1:59所以這在美國、歐洲、中東或更專制的體制下，呈現的樣貌都會不同。現在的進展超乎想像地順利。當初大家估計要好幾年才會有真正的進展，有人甚至認為要花幾十年才能融入社會。但現在，這一切正在發生：原生社群、機構資金都上鏈了，人機混合智慧也開始運用這項技術，這一切都在加速發展。所以，進展真的非常好。And so it's going to look different in the United States of America versus Europe versus the Middle East versus more. Tyrannical political systems, and so it is going mind-blowingly well. Estimates were that it would be a few years before we had real traction versus this would take decades to integrate into society, and when we— Integrated into society, as is happening right now with the native community, with institutionals moving on-chain, and with hybrid human-machine intelligence making use of this technology. That is all happening now, and it's accelerating. So it's, yeah, it's going very well.

2:50標準化困境與流動性挑戰

2:50隨著鏈上證券等產品的出現，我們遇到了一個標準化的問題。如果我打開 MetaMask 錢包，或是在 Robinhood Chain 上的 Uniswap 搜尋 Apple 或 Nvidia，會發現有很多選項，這很厲害，但同時也有 17 種不同的選擇。這些選項的流動性都很差，而且背後的結構各不相同，才能讓它們上鏈。雖然我們正在解決這個問題，但還沒有找到一個共同的標準來創造這些資產。Johann，你怎麼看未來會不會有單一流動性、流動性很高的鏈上資產？而不是讓使用者得自己去比較七八種產品，才能決定要買哪一個？With the advent of things like tokenized securities on chain, we have a standardization problem. If I go into my MetaMask wallet, or if I go onto Uniswap on Robinhood Chain and I type in, like, Apple or Nvidia, it's amazing that there are options there. That's incredible. Unfortunately, there are 17 options. And they all have terrible liquidity profiles, and they all have just like a different backend structure that allows them to be on-chain in the first place. So it's great that we're solving this problem, but we really haven't found a common standard solution to create these things. Johann, how do you think this plays out where we get single liquidity, high liquidity tokenized assets that are just obviously the correct product rather than Me as an individual user having to go and kick the tires of seven different products to understand which one I want to buy.

3:42我認為這是整個社群需要持續努力的事。其實有這麼多選擇是好事，因為有不同的後端、法律結構、流動性配置，慢慢地這些東西會朝向一個標準收斂。當然，我們認為 Robinhood 發行的股票代幣會成為這個標準。我們有 2800 萬個資金帳戶，這些使用者會在鏈上互動這類代幣。但改變很困難，我們也必須不斷突破。如果我們沒有率先發行股票代幣，很多去年的創新可能都不會發生。所以社群要開始思考下一步。我們很重視流動性，想確保無論何時、甚至週末，價差都很小，也要讓使用者體驗很好。你在 MetaMask 或 Robinhood Wallet 上，不應該還要煩惱該用哪個代幣，應該要很簡單。這些都是我們社群要持續努力的方向。Yeah, I think it's something that we have to keep working on as a community. You know, if you think about all these profiles, it's really good that we have the choice. There are different backends, different legal structures, different liquidity profiles, to your point, and so little by little things are going to converge towards one standard. Obviously, we think the— Stock tokens that Robinhood is issuing is going to become this standard. We have this unique distribution, the 28 million funded account of Robinhood that are going to be on the chain, that are going to interact with this type of tokens. But, you know, change is hard, and we also have to push the boundaries of things. If we are not doing the first steps with our first stock tokens. Pretty sure that a lot of the announcements last year would have not happened. And so it's for the community to start thinking about what is next. And we are looking a lot at liquidity. We want to make sure that the spreads are super tight, no matter the time of the day or if it's a weekend or not. And we also want to make sure that the experience is really good. To your point on MetaMask or on Robinhood Wallet. You should not have to wonder which token to use. It should be fairly simple for you. And so that's the stuff that we need to keep working on as a community. Yeah.

4:54其實這些都是不同的產品，持有鏈上股票有很多方式。你可以用特殊目的載體（SPV）來發行一個代幣化實體，裡面持有不同股票；也可以是一對一的關係，讓一個實體股票對應一個代幣，還能傳遞投票權、股息等公司行動。美國的 DTCC 很快就會上線鏈上股票，這些是真正的股票，可以在傳統與鏈上型態間轉換，並且會有相關法規讓這些資產能在 DeFi 協議中以組合式方式運作。不過美國有很深的流動性市場，必須維持其作為全球最強金融基礎設施的地位，讓資本能有效轉化為企業。因此，如何審慎監管鏈上股票，讓美國大型企業能參與全球組合式生態系，是很重要的事。So these are actually different products. There are different ways of holding a tokenized equity. There you can have a special purpose vehicle, and that's a tokenized entity that holds different... Equities inside it, you can have one-to-one relationships between a real equity and a token, and you can pass through voting and dividends and other corporate actions. DTC, there will be some announcements soon that will be part of. DTCC in the U.S. is going live pretty soon with tokenized equities, and those are— Real equities that can be moved from traditional form to tokenized form and back, and we'll have some regulation that enables those things to both operate inside decentralized finance, inside protocols, composably, but You know, America has liquid deep markets, and it needs to preserve what it is in terms of the most capable financial infrastructure for turning, you know, capital into companies. And so it needs to regulate prudently how. Tokenized equities, like real major companies in the U.S., take part in this global composable ecosystem.

6:24使用者體驗、監管與去中心化的拉鋸

6:24我們需要完善的揭露資訊，也需要很好的使用者介面，讓大家知道這個看起來像 Apple 股票的東西，其實和另外一個不一樣。你剛剛提到的這個問題，正好說明了區塊鏈原始 cypherpunk 精神與未來主流採用之間的張力。現場有多少人買過鏈上股票或實體資產？大概只有兩成吧。那有多少人在買這些鏈上證券時有做 KYC？幾乎沒有人。假設你是在真正的證券化平台買的，而不是像 Ondo 或 Robinhood 這種股票代幣。最近 SEC 給了一個創新豁免，想把很多離岸的鏈上證券帶回美國。現在鏈上看到的這些實體資產代幣很酷，你只要用錢包裡的 ETH 或 USDC，就能在 Uniswap 買到 Nvidia 代幣。雖然它不是真正的股票，但經濟效益是一對一的。SEC 不喜歡這樣，他們想要 KYC 過、白名單的鏈上股票。現場有多少人想要在自己的 Ethereum 錢包裡持有 KYC 過的一對一股票？只有幾個人。我自己比較喜歡非白名單的版本，其實我兩種都想要。這也回到標準化的問題。至少就我 Bankless 的聽眾和現場觀眾來說，大家更想要非白名單的版本。這就和美國監管產生了拉鋸，要怎麼解決？So we need proper disclosures. We need really good user interfaces so that we understand that this thing that looks like an Apple equity is different from this thing is different from this thing. Yeah, yeah, you're touching on something I want to go into next that it really illustrates a tension that I see with some of the original cypherpunk ethos of blockchains and the adoption that we want in the future. How many of people in the audience have purchased a tokenized stock or real-world asset on-chain? No, there's like, there's like, I'm going to give it 20% of the crowd. How many of those people who bought those tokenized securities, tokenized real-world assets, whatever, did KYC before you bought it because that was what was required of you? Zero people, one or two people. Like, I'm assuming you're buying something from the securitized platform that is truly a tokenized security, as opposed to something from like Ondo or Robinhood tokenized stocks. The SEC recently gave an innovation exemption that is an attempt to bring onshore a lot of these offshore tokenized securities, tokenized real-world assets. One of the cool things about the tokenized real-world assets that we know and see on-chain today is that you can just take the Ether in your wallet, the USDC in your wallet, you can go to Uniswap and you can buy tokenized Nvidia. It's not truly the equity, but it is effectively the economic one-to-one of this thing. The SEC doesn't like that, and it wants KYC'd, whitelisted, tokenized equities on-chain. How many in the audience wants KYC'd, tokenized one-to-one equities in their Ethereum wallet? A few people, a few people. I'm on the other side. I like the non-white— I want both. You want both. You want both. Doesn't that kind of lend itself to the standardization problem that I was talking about? And also, at least from my listeners at Bankless, and I think from the audience people here, we're more interested in the non-whitelisted versions of these. So that puts us at a little bit of a tension. With the United States regulators, how do we resolve that?

8:32我認為兩種都會共存，會有不同的流動性池，AMM 會在這兩池之間套利。以我們發行的股票代幣為例，每次鑄造代幣時，我們都會實際買入該公司的股票，並把公司行動、股息等權益傳遞給使用者，甚至能做到除息日即時分派。這些創新才是大家關心的。其實關於 KYC，我沒聽到什麼抱怨，我們也不一定要求 KYC。不過我最近在韓國被路人攔下來，他們都想要能夠低手續費、隨時存取美股和 ETF，不用等交易所開盤。這些需求，股票代幣都能滿足。SEC 的豁免很有意思，等了五六年終於有個可以操作的監管框架，對我們來說是好消息。不過目前還有很多限制，像是交易量、可代幣化的股票種類等，所以這還只是個原型，還不是最終型態。Well, you know, I think both are going to coexist, and you're going to have different pools, and you will have AMMs that are arbitraging between the two pools. But at the end of the day, like the stock token that we launch, for example, every time you mint a token, we buy a stock of that company. We pass you the corporate action. We pass you the dividends. We're actually able to do it on ex-commission date. All of these things are like the innovation that people are interested in. And actually, the KYC point, I haven't really heard anyone complaining about it. We don't require that necessarily, but it's something what have been stopped in the streets here and here in Korea last week was. They want to be able to access U.S. stocks and ETF without paying crazy fees, without having to wait for exchange being open. All these kind of things, you can get it with the stock tokens. The SEC exemption, I think it's super interesting. You know, for five, six years we've been waiting for regulation, so finally having a framework that we can work within is really good news for us. I think it's just the beginning, right? There's a lot of limits, limits on volume, limits on which stock you can tokenize. And so I think that's just showing you that this is going to still be a prototype or, you know, a small playing ground, but it's not going to be the final version of it.

9:51所以這些都是不同的金融工具。我們需要好的使用者介面和清楚的揭露，讓大家知道自己買的是什麼、承擔什麼風險、有哪些機會。我們有能力讓美國市場維持深度流動性，讓美國公民享有最好的公開證券存取權。如果這些規則、揭露機制和流動性能夠共享、輸出到全球，會是很棒的事。所以我不覺得這兩者有矛盾。美國的 DeFi 會有一個「閹割版」，需要簡化和限制，因為監管機關不可能讓「西部拓荒」模式直接衝進美國資本市場。但大家也認知到全球有大量流動性，創新會在無許可 DeFi 中發展得更快。只要兩者能並行、互相滲透和學習，就是最好的路徑。我認為全球無許可 DeFi 會勝出，因為它發展更快。如果美國太保守，對市場反而不利。Yeah. So again, these are different instruments. We need good user interfaces with clear disclosures of what these things are, what you're exposed to, what your opportunities are. We have the ability to Make American markets, like deep liquid American markets. You can think of American markets as providing to American citizens best-in-class access to public securities, and to the extent that that can be. Shared exported, you know, shared rule of law, shared disclosure mechanisms, shared the liquidity. I think that's going to be great. And so, again, I don't see a contradiction. I think that— There will be a sort of nerfed version of American DeFi, and it needs to be simplified. It needs to be constrained for a while because it would be irresponsible for regulators to allow the Wild West to suddenly invade American capital markets. But there is a recognition that there's a giant amount of global liquidity. The innovation will move so much faster in permissionless DeFi. And so, to the extent that both of these things can run together and sort of interpenetrate and inform each other, I think that's the best way forward. I do think that global permissionless DeFi wins because it moves faster. And I don't think if America decides to stay too constrained, there's going to be a problem for those markets.

11:45金融體系融合與鏈上未來願景

11:45在區塊鏈早期，特別是以太坊剛起步時，大家都想像過金融體系會顛倒過來：傳統金融還在，但一切都搬到區塊鏈上，Nasdaq、紐約證交所都在鏈上運作，世界全面代幣化，中心化資料庫直接關掉，全部用區塊鏈。但我們還沒到那一步，現在只是開始看到平行金融體系的融合。Joe，你還相信有一天所有資料庫都會關掉，一切都變成網路帳本嗎？In the early days of blockchain, and especially in the early days of Ethereum, I think we all imagined a financial inversion where we had TradFi, we still have TradFi, but Now it's all on blockchain. The Nasdaq trades on a blockchain. The New York Stock Exchange trades on a blockchain. The world has become tokenized, and all of a sudden the centralized databases are just turned off because everything runs on a blockchain. And we're not quite there yet. We're starting to see the merging of these parallel financial systems. Joe, do you believe in this idea of just like one day The databases will turn off and everything will be an internet ledger. Is that a vision you still have?

12:27這很明顯會發生。70 年代時，一切都還是紙本，華爾街還有快遞騎腳踏車送文件，最後整個系統不堪負荷，發生了所謂的紙本危機，於是大家被迫改用電腦。這就是系統自然演化的過程。現在我們也看到這種轉變正在發生。對機構來說，轉型很困難，要整合區塊鏈、監控交易、管理錢包，很多機構都還在適應，過去也缺乏適合的監管讓他們能投資這些專案。但現在大企業已經開始推動這些事，未來你必須採用分散式帳本和資產代幣化，否則就會被淘汰。Yeah, it's obvious. In the 70s, everything was on paper and couriers were riding their bikes around Wall Street. That got overwhelming for that system, and there's something called the paper crisis, and so they had to change the way the system worked. They had to incorporate computers, and so this is just a natural evolution of how systems work on the planet. Yeah, and I think, you know, we are seeing that transition happening. Change is hard for institutions to— So then integrate with blockchain to understand how to monitor transaction, to even understand how to manage a wallet. A lot of institutions are struggling a bit with this, and for a long time also we are missing the right regulation for them to even invest in these projects. But right now what we are seeing is all these big companies are already starting to push forward, and it's going to become a given that, one, you need to adapt this kind of distributed ledger, and you also need to adapt to tokenization, or you're just going to be left behind.

13:33很多事情都是循環的。當年紙本危機時，股票證書上還會寫你的名字，那是一個很分散的系統。後來為了效率，全部集中到 DTCC，Cede & Co.名下幾乎擁有所有美國公開股票，然後再發 IOU 給券商、再到你手上。但現在有了去中心化協議和資料庫，我們又能真正擁有自己的股票，甚至直接和公司建立關係。公司可以直接發訊息給股東，現在他們還得透過 Broadridge，沒辦法直接提供股東福利。我認為鏈上股票甚至穩定幣都會改變電商的本質，因為你能直接知道誰付錢、誰持有你的資產。Yeah, so a lot of things are cyclical, including this. So the paper crisis, that was a very decentralized system where you actually had your name on your stock certificates. They had to centralize that system. Under the DTCC and a company called Cede & Co. owns basically all the equities, the public equities in the United States, and there's an IOU that goes to your broker-dealer and then to you. But now with decentralized protocols and these decentralized databases, We're actually going to own our own equities again. We're going to have a direct relationship potentially with the companies that we own shares in. They're going to be able to send us messages. Right now, what they have to do in order to send out a communication is they go through Broadridge, and so they don't have the ability to— communicate to offer perks to their shareholders. And so I think tokenized equities and even stablecoins are going to change the nature of e-commerce because there's going to be a direct connection to who's been paying you and who owns your

14:47鏈上 RWA 經濟與以太坊生態的價值分配

14:47Robinhood Chain 上已經有 3200 萬筆交易，很多都是 RWA 熱潮帶動的。Robinhood 光是鏈上手續費就賺了 4500 萬美元，Arbitrum 拿到其中 5% 的分潤，Ethereum 則只收到約 6.9 萬美元。看起來 RWA 成長帶來的價值，大多集中在執行層（Robinhood Chain）。Joe，作為全球最大 ETH 持有者之一，看到這個 6.9 萬美元的數字有什麼感想？32 million transactions on Robinhood Chain. A lot of that has been downstream of the tokenized real-world asset boom. Robinhood has made $45 million of gross revenue from chain fees. Arbitrum made 5% of that because that was their cut. Ethereum collected about $69,000 in revenue from the Robinhood chain, in contrast to Robinhood's $45 million. And so a lot of the value being captured by the growth of real-world assets seemingly is happening on the execution layer, which is Robinhood Chain. Joe, as one of the world's largest holders of Ether, how do you feel about that $69,000 number?

15:26其實我覺得很棒。我大概就像 Jeff Bezos 當年把所有利潤都再投資、壓低價格一樣。早期我們就知道，要讓交易成本便宜到像空氣一樣。因為網路和 Web 規模很大，機器智慧會讓它們更大，所有活動都會移到 Layer-2 和私有鏈，還有我們正在開發的同步組合性技術，2027 年你會聽到很多這個。我們要讓 Ethereum Layer-1 擴容，讓很多鏈都能在 Layer-1 結算。只要 Layer-1 擴容，對 ETH 的需求就會大幅超過供給。重點是讓 Layer-2 和私有鏈都能用 ETH，質押、競爭等機制會讓 ETH 價值長期上升。Really good, actually. I feel— Probably the same way Jeff Bezos felt when he was reinvesting all of his profits and trying to keep prices low. You looked like Jeff Bezos, yeah. Thank you. So he was focused for many, many years on just growing his company, and the, so early... Early in, you know, the first year or so of development of the Ethereum project, we really felt like we're going to have to make transactions as cheap as air. Because if you've looked at the internet and the web recently, they're really, really big, and with machine intelligence, they're going to get bigger and bigger. And all of this activity. is going to move onto layer twos and private permissioned corporate chains and a technology called synchronous composability, which we're building. We're going to unify that whole ecosystem. You'll hear a huge amount about that in 2027. And so scale Ethereum layer one, have lots of chains settle onto layer one. And so, as much as we scale Ethereum layer one, the demand for Ether is going to far outstrip the supply. And so it's really about enabling layer twos and private chains to— Be part of the Ethereum ecosystem to make use of the Ether token and contention and staking and all sorts of mechanisms will drive the value of Ether much higher over time.

17:11我這邊也不打算反駁，不過我覺得數學其實沒那麼單純，這是我唯一的小意見。其實營收有很多種來源，像錢包在 swap 上也賺很多。例如 FOMO 就是鏈上最大的供應商之一，他們收到很多收入。第二點是我們工程師在鏈、股票代幣等開發上，也都在貢獻 Ethereum 生態。我們的股票代幣不只是用 ERC-20，還有我們自己貢獻的擴充標準，大家都能受益。最後，Robinhood 在推動區塊鏈普及、機構與散戶整合方面是領頭羊之一，我們把很多營收再投資到股票代幣，未來不只美股，還會擴展到全球交易所、私募股權等，還有很多新東西在開發中。Yeah, and I think, you know, on my side, I'm not going to put on the gloves either, but— I think the math is actually not exactly right, so maybe that's my only dig. But overall, you know, there's two things to think about. One is that there is always different ways of making revenue. If you think about this pure revenue, you also have the wallets that are making a lot of revenue from the swap. If you think about FOMO, for example, which is one of the largest providers on the chain. We are seeing a lot of revenue coming to them. The second part is that all our engineers that are working on the chain, on stock tokens, and on other things are also contributing to the Ethereum ecosystem. The stock token that we built are not just using ERC-20s. We're actually using an extension that we've contributed to roll out, and it's something that benefits everybody, not just, you know, the Robinhood ecosystem. And finally, I think, you know, if you think about companies that have contributed to the blockchain expansion and integration towards institutions, towards retail, Robinhood is one of these top companies, and we've been reinvesting a lot of this revenue into expanding the stock token not just to U.S. public stocks, but also to exchange across the world, also to private equity, and there's a lot more that we are working on.

18:32資產配置、比特幣與以太坊的未來

18:32看來台上都是和平主義者。最後一題：Robinhood 最近宣布買了 2500 萬美元的比特幣作為資產負債表配置。Johann，什麼時候會買 2500 萬美元的 ETH？我們現在有一條鏈，帶來很多 ETH，我們也在努力這方面。對我們來說，讓 Robinhood 和社群保持一致很重要。我們平台上有很多比特幣信仰者，也有很多以太坊信仰者。我們希望讓大家知道 Robinhood 就是關於資產所有權，也想在加密領域貢獻這一塊。要變成數位資產金庫公司嗎？有一點啦。我們還要努力，才能追上你們的進度。今天時間就到這裡，謝謝大家。I'm on stage with a bunch of pacifists, it seems like. All right, this is my last attempt. This will be our last question. Robinhood recently announced that it bought $25 million of Bitcoin for its balance sheet. Johann, when will you be buying $25 million of ETH for the Robinhood balance sheet? Well, there's a thing that we're doing right now is that we have this chain that is bringing a lot of ETH, and so we're also working on that. I think for us, you know, it's important to align the Robinhood with the community. We are a platform that has a ton of Bitcoin maximalists. We have a platform that has a ton of Ethereum maximalists. And so we want to make sure that we are really working towards a world where people realize that Robinhood is all about ownership, and we also want to contribute to that part with crypto. So becoming a digital asset treasury company? A little bit. We still have to work to get to your stage. That's all the time that we have for today. Thank you, everyone.