Aave 創辦人 Stani：引領傳統金融與 DeFi 融合新時代

0:00傳統金融與 DeFi 的融合新時代

0:00你最近好嗎？歡迎來到你第幾次參加 TOKEN2049 了？第三次還是第四次？How you doing, man? Welcome to your, what, third token? Fourth token?

0:05我都數不清了，真的來太多次了。Yeah, I can't even count. I've been so many times here.

0:10每次來這裡都很棒。Yeah, it's always good to come here, yeah.

0:14我以為我們現在都叫它鏈上金融和傳統金融，不再說 TradFi 了？Yeah, man, I thought we were calling it on-chain finance and legacy finance, not TradFi anymore.

0:22這名稱最近有點小調整啦。What's up with that? Yeah, little cleanup there.

0:26Aave 的產品創新與 RWA 超級循環

0:26很高興之前在紐約的 Circle 活動和 Avalanche 活動都能跟你聊聊。你們最近推出了不少新產品，像是 RWA Hub 這些。很明顯，現在正是傳統資產代幣化的超級循環，這對 Aave 來說是個大機會。Well, man, it was great to speak with you in New York City at the Circle event and also at the Avalanche event. Obviously, you guys have launched some new products there, RWA Hub, these types of things. Clearly, kind of, you know. Being in this convergence, and really I think it's this tokenization supercycle that is the opportunity for Aave.

0:48讓我先簡單跟大家說明一下背景，然後就交給 Stani 來分享更多乾貨。當我們 2020 年開始做 DeFi，甚至 2019 年鏈上 DeFi 剛起步時，你比我們還早幾年，我們其實都是圍繞著加密資產來設計產品。那時候我們有 Ethereum 當抵押品，還有 wrapped Bitcoin、Chainlink、Aave token，這些都是我們的核心資產。And so, if I just were to give some context to the audience briefly, and then I'll let, you know, Stani give a ton of alpha and answers here. You know, when we started back in 2020 and on-chain DeFi 2019, obviously you a couple years earlier, we were really orienting around building products for crypto assets, right? We had Ethereum as collateral, you know, wrapped Bitcoin, we had Chainlink, we had Aave token. These were the things that we oriented around.

1:12當時這個市場的總體量大概是兩到三兆美元，加上 DeFi TVL 也就一千五百億美元左右，主要都在 Ethereum 上。但隨著資產代幣化的熱潮加速，我們開始思考更大的格局：怎麼樣才能讓全球資產的一小部分都能進入鏈上？現在我們已經看到高品質的資產像是代幣化股票、債券、T-bill 基金等都開始上鏈。And so when you look at the TAM for that market, you know, we're talking about two to three trillion dollars of total market cap, you know, 150 billion dollars of DeFi TVL, primarily on Ethereum. Very quickly, as we've seen this tokenization boom accelerate, you start to think a lot bigger as to what we're actually trying to do here, because what we're really thinking about is how do we get, you know, bips and bips of the total asset size of the world, right? And we're seeing high-quality assets like tokenized equities, stocks, bonds, T-bill funds, et cetera, et cetera, et cetera.

1:41Aave 如何看待資產代幣化的市場潛力

1:41Stani，從這個資產代幣化超級循環的角度來看，你怎麼看鏈上市場的總體可服務市場（TAM）會怎麼成長？這對 Aave 以及整個 DeFi 生態的建設者來說有什麼意義？And so I guess, Stani, just from the lens of this tokenization supercycle, how do you think about the TAM increase for what we're doing here on Chain as it applies to Aave and just broadly for all DeFi builders.

1:53我覺得這是整個產業非常令人興奮的新篇章。我們一開始都是從加密原生資產、Bitcoin、Ethereum 當抵押品開始，然後慢慢擴展。去年我們的淨存款達到 760 億美元，這就是鏈上 24/7 運作、提供借貸的彈性系統的最佳範例。Yeah, I think it's a really exciting chapter for the whole industry. So obviously, we all started from like crypto-native assets and Bitcoin, Ethereum as a collateral and expanding from there. We grew up to 76 billion net deposit last year, and it's fundamentally a great example of how you can have a resilient system running on-chain 24/7, providing lending and borrowing.

2:22Aave 在穩定幣和數位資產的借貸領域一直是領頭羊，提供收益、創造全球經濟機會。現場應該很多人都用過 Aave。接下來最令人期待的，就是把這種模式擴展到傳統資產。現在我們已經看到越來越多資產上鏈，像是貨幣市場、T-bill 基金，甚至最近我們還上架了 Coinbase 代幣化股票，讓大家可以用股票當抵押品借 USDC。Now, this is all great, and Aave does best in the space for Lending, borrowing, when it comes to stablecoins against digital assets, providing yield, providing a lot of economic opportunity around the world. I'm sure there's plenty of people here that has used Aave or are using it on an ongoing basis. Now, the next exciting chapter for the whole space, in my opinion, is this sort of expansion to traditional assets. So we're gonna— See more and more assets coming on chain and tokenized assets, and this starts from, we've already seen money markets, T-bill funds, and so forth. But now we're starting to see also tokenized stocks. So last week we launched Coinbase tokenized stocks on Aave, so you can use max seven stock. As a collateral on Aave and borrow against USDC.

3:18大家真的有在用這些功能嗎？其實現在這個市場還很小，Coinbase 代幣化股票的總市值大概只有兩三千萬美金，但已經有一千多萬美金的存款和超過一百五十萬美金的借貸量。這代表我們正在見證一個轉變，把傳統金融的機會搬到鏈上，讓所有人都能參與。加上像 Aave 這樣的 DeFi 協議，能讓這些資產更有效率、更有生產力，甚至比傳統券商還透明。Have people been actually, you know, trying that out? Has there been some uptick in? Yeah, and it's quite interesting because it is a 10 million market in terms of deposits and over one and a half million in outstanding borrowing volume. And this is when you put into the actual sizing, the whole market cap of the Coinbase tokenized stocks is between 20 and 30 to 40 million. So we're talking about really small market cap on-chain of these, like, bigger equities that are traded globally. So why this is very exciting is because we are seeing a transition. Moving a lot of these opportunities that exist in traditional finance on-chain and providing that opportunity for everyone. And then when you add these DeFi primitives and protocols like Aave, you get the efficiency and you get that lending and borrowing, make these assets more productive. And eventually, you can be able to do it better than the traditional brokerages, transparency as well.

4:20鏈上借貸與傳統券商的差異

4:20其實有時候我會覺得，大家都在講資產代幣化，好像只是把傳統資產搬上鏈，但我自己是個加密信仰者。你想想看，傳統券商要用股票做抵押借錢，通常要有 prime broker，等於你要是美國的高資產客戶，還要有特定的銀行關係才能拿到股票抵押的信用額度。因為股票波動大，傳統金融不希望一般人隨便用資產槓桿。但我不認同這種限制，我相信選擇權和普及化，這也是你一直在做的事。Yeah, I mean, I mean, if you just think about it, I mean, you know, I get a bit disillusioned when we just come on and talk about tokenizing other assets because I'm just a crypto bull. But when you think about the actual use case here of, hey. You know, in order to do actual lending on equities in your brokerage account, you likely need a prime broker, which means you're a high net worth individual in the U.S., and you have a very specific banking relationship that allows you to get a credit line on equities. Because look, I mean, these things are volatile assets. They don't want to just have the average Joe have essentially leverage on their assets. That being said, I don't believe in that. I believe in optionality, and I believe in access. And so, you know, I think you obviously do as well.

4:58現在這些資產可以當作抵押品、產生收益。像 Aave 上現在有一百多萬美金的股票抵押借貸，這代表供應方可以賺手續費，借方則付利息借穩定幣。這種股票收益機器雖然目前市場還小，但對華爾街來說，這會是理解 DeFi 價值的重大突破。And so when you just think about these assets being collateral assets, being yield-generating assets, right, you know, for that $1 million of outstanding loans, more or less on Aave, that means that they're getting paid a fee to supply those assets, and they're also paying interest to borrow, you know, stables or whatever it is. So there is now a yield, you know, machine for equities. You know, I think these small things, while for us it's like still a small market. These are going to be monumental breakthroughs for Wall Street to understand the value of what we're building here.

5:27RWA 結構與穩定幣啟示

5:27現在很多代幣化資產，不管是股票還是其他 RWA（真實世界資產），其實有很多不同的結構設計。有些是債券型、有些是透過信託直接持有，現在還看不出哪一種會勝出。但你回頭看現金怎麼上鏈的，其實就是靠穩定幣，穩定幣本質上就是包裝 T-bill 的資產。雖然現在還沒有完美解方，但穩定幣就是我們解決鏈上穩定性的方式。現在我們要做的是讓全球都能接觸到這些產品，Aave 必須走在最前線，提供安全、高效率、創新的服務，讓使用者真正擁有資金主控權和透明度。Yeah, I think this is really exciting. Obviously, a lot of these tokenized assets, whether it's stocks or other RWAs, we see a lot of different mechanisms how they're actually constructed. You know, there's certain things that are debt notes, certain things that are— You know, direct ownership through a trust, and it is very unclear, obviously, like what is the sort of like a winning path. But also, if you think about how cash was moving on-chain, it happened through stablecoins, and stablecoins happen to be effectively, you know, assets, tokens that are wrapping T-bills. So we don't have a perfect solution today, but also stablecoins that we use. Today, we came out of, like, a solution of actually how we move these types of, how we solve things on chain, and that was to solve stability. And here, actually, we're trying to provide access to these products across globally. So I think for Aave, it's very important to actually be everywhere and be on the frontier. So we're known for— Obviously for safety and security, doing things very efficiently, but also for being innovators in the space. And that is the reason why we have to be there in the forefront to actually get this opportunity and provide that to our users. And doing it on-chain, obviously, where users own their control of their funds, have the full transparency, and get the smart contract-based execution.

6:54RWA 借貸與加密借貸的未來

6:54最後再聊一下資產代幣化。Aave 一開始的主力還是加密原生資產，但最近像 Hyperliquid 這種平台，RWA 永續合約的交易量在熊市時甚至超過加密永續合約。現在牛市又回來了。你怎麼看 Aave 上加密借貸和 RWA 借貸的規模？你會希望 RWA 借貸超越加密借貸嗎？這對你來說是重要指標嗎？Last thing on the tokenization side, you know, when you think about Aave as a protocol, as I mentioned at the top there, you know, we had a lot of these crypto-native assets be the primary use case. What we saw in Hyperliquid as of late is that the RWA perp volume in the crypto bear market actually superseded the crypto perp volume. Now it's obviously back. We're in a bull market. If you haven't realized that, then, you know, you need to look at your portfolio. And so, how do you think about the outstanding loan value for crypto loans versus RWA loans on Aave? Is this a metric that you care about? Is this something that you want to see supersede crypto loans? Do you think it will? How much time? Just give us a lens into, like, what your north star is for, you know, valuing whether or not this is actually working.

7:41我覺得這個發展會比較慢，畢竟我們做加密借貸已經超過五年了，但股票和 RWA 抵押借貸才剛開始。Aave Horizon 就是我們的 RWA 產品，去年才剛起步，市場規模也才五億美金左右，還很早期。這些資產的市值還在建立中。雖然數字很重要，但更重要的是我們能不能提供比傳統金融更好的服務，吸引新使用者。Aave 的核心就是讓大家能夠創造財富、解鎖流動性，這才是我們的北極星。Yeah, I think that the development will be slow, and you have to remember that basically where we are with crypto loans, we've been doing that, you know, over half a decade, essentially, and longer. And where we are with stock-backed loans and RWAs, obviously Aave Horizon is a well-known example of our RWA offering, where you can use tokenized assets as collateral and borrow. Stablecoins that reached to half a billion market size started last year. So we're extremely early in this process, and a lot of these assets are still building market cap. So I think over time, like those headline numbers are important, but actually what's even more important is to being able to provide a better offering than exists in traditional finance. And access new audiences. End of the day, Aave is all about, you know, preserving financial wealth, wealth creation, and lending and borrowing is a big part of that, that you can unlock liquidity out of your holdings.

8:41Aave App：專注於全球高品質收益

8:41我今天穿了綠襪子，感覺很牛。現場有誰用過 Revolut、Venmo、Cash App 或 PayPal？這些 app 大家都拿來轉帳、存錢、買賣加密貨幣，已經變成新型態的數位銀行。你們在做的 Aave app 很特別，跟其他 neobank 不一樣，你們只專注在儲蓄，目標是讓全球投資人都能公平獲得高品質收益，不管是 10 美元還是 1,000 萬美元，都能安全地在鏈上賺取收益。為什麼這對你和 Aave 團隊來說這麼重要？Well, I've got my green socks on, guys, so I'm feeling bullish. Can I get a show of hands? Who uses Revolut or Venmo or Cash App or PayPal? In this room, who has those apps and uses them? Okay. All right. So do you guys, you know, people use these apps for sending money. They use them for transfer money to their friends, for saving money, for buying and selling crypto, other assets. These have kind of become these neobanks. You're working on the Aave app, and what's interesting about the Aave app, from my perspective, is that unlike other neobanks, you're strictly focused on savings. Yes, you're strictly focused on democratizing access to high-quality yields for global investors, no matter what the size is. Could be $10, could be $10 million. You want to be able to provide a platform for democratized yields on-chain in a safe and secure manner. Just talk to us about why this is an important part of the Aave stack and what this actually means to you deep down.

9:34你來自芬蘭，可能不是大家印象中的金融重鎮，但你做得很成功。對你來說，推動這種儲蓄產品有什麼意義？Obviously, you know you're from Finland, I believe. So, you know, came from a bit of a place that may not be known for their financial services industry, although obviously, you know, you've done quite well and built an amazing product. Talk to us about why this matters to you. What, you know, deep down, why does offering this savings product matter to Stani?

9:55我覺得這背後有更大的願景。全球生活成本都在上升，通膨無所不在，能源價格、房價都漲。很多金融服務並沒有真正解決全球性的問題，也沒提供最好的機會。我和團隊都相信，DeFi 才是未來最好的金融機會所在，所以我們要做的就是讓消費者能直接用 DeFi 產品。I think this is a sort of like the bigger vision here is that— You know, the living cost has increased around the world, and inflation is everywhere. You know, and we see energy prices going up, cost of living in a lot of cities going up. So inflation is a global problem, and a lot of these financial applications, financial services, they are not addressing at a sort of a global scale or providing the best opportunity. And I personally think. And our whole team believes that DeFi is where the best financial opportunities will exist, and that is sort of why we think that consumer offering that is fully on DeFi is the future.

10:39我們不想做一個複雜的 neobank，也不想發卡片。我們只想專注把儲蓄做好，因為銀行已經做不到這件事。像美國平均儲蓄利率只有 0.4%，銀行和金融機構就是靠這種低利率賺利差。我們要做的是用 DeFi 提供全球競爭力的儲蓄利率，因為 DeFi 的效率很高。雖然現在 DeFi 的收益來源還是以加密資產為主，但未來可以用代幣化股票、RWA 抵押借貸，最好的金融機會都會在鏈上出現。Aave 現在就是要讓 DeFi 變得簡單易用，讓使用者完全掌控資金，這其實不是技術問題，而是 UX 和推廣的挑戰。我們專注把資金從銀行搬到 Aave，專心把一件事做到最好，就是讓投資人獲得最高品質的美元計價收益。Now, an interesting part here is that we don't want to build a neobank or have a card or have like a complex offering. What we really want to achieve is to provide users savings and bring savings back because banks have failed to do that. So on average, for example, in the U.S., users are earning 40 basis points on their savings, and that is how banks and financial institutions They make their margin is when they can offer lower rates to certain user groups and capture a bigger NIM. What we want to do is we want to provide savings at a competitive rate across globally and from DeFi. And this is really important because, end of the day, DeFi can do things very efficiently. We're still in the early stages of DeFi where You know, we still have the very basic yield sources that are backed by liquid crypto holdings. But down the line, you can borrow against tokenized stocks, you can borrow against RWAs, and the best financial opportunities are going to exist on-chain, essentially. And that is what Aave is focusing to do now, and we want to make— DeFi, very simple abstracted experience while users are still holding their access to their funds and they can be in full control. And that is possible today. It's not a technical problem. It's basically a UX challenge that we solved, and it's also a go-to-market problem. Like, how do you Figure out the easiest way to move funds from bank accounts into Aave. And that is where we are focusing with the Aave app, and that's one of the reasons why we don't have a complex offering or why we don't call it a neobank, because end of the day, like, we just want to do one thing really, really well, and that's provide investors to— The highest quality of yields for U.S. dollar-denominated assets on chain.

12:42使用者體驗、金融未來與財務自由

12:42說到 UX 體驗，我 27 歲，是美國人。最近我問了 Hunter Biden（Joe Biden 的兒子），他覺得美國年輕人最大的財務威脅是什麼？他說是房價負擔危機。這其實也跟你剛剛講的通膨有關。我很喜歡 Aave app 的一點是，你可以直接看到 5 年、10 年、20 年後，如果現在存 1,000 美元，未來會變多少。你為什麼想要打造這種能讓大家掌控財務未來的體驗？And so with that in mind, and thinking about kind of the UX experience and just kind of how you think about, you know, part of this, I'm 27. I'm, you know, I'm an American, and in America we, you know, I spoke to Hunter Biden recently, Joe Biden's son, and I asked him what the biggest financial threat was to To Young Americans, he's a character. And he said the affordability of housing crisis, right? And without getting too political, that was kind of stemmed from what you said also with regards to just this inflationary regime. And so one of the things that I like about the Aave app is when you go on it, what you can see is you can scan out a time frame, call it five years, 10 years, 20 years. If I put $1,000 in today, What am I going to have in 10 years, 20 years? What is that going to look like? And so I just want to understand why, you know, why it is important for you to kind of build this experience for people in a way that, you know, this may sound a little cliche, but empowers them to take control of their financial future with the tools that you have.

13:42我上週在休士頓的 Robinhood 活動有跟他們 CEO Vlad 聊過，他們的理念就是讓每個人都能接觸金融服務，app 裡面有量化工具、收益策略，這跟你們很像。你怎麼看這種金融民主化、提升使用者能力，這是不是你們產品策略的核心？I was just at the Robinhood event in Houston last week. I talked to Vlad, their CEO. His whole thing is democratizing access to finance. Quant tools, yield strategies, everything in that app. This is something, this is similar. How do you think about that kind of, like, democratization and empowering people as part of your core product strategy?

14:02區塊鏈本身就是一個很民主化的工具，開放協議、無需許可的存取，讓大家都能接觸到最重要的金融機會。通膨才是真正奪走財務機會、加劇不平等的元兇。每個人都想要財務自由。很多 fintech app 方向正確，但我覺得我們可以走得更快、更全球化，讓大家都能用 DeFi 創造更好的、可持續的金融機會。當所有資產都上鏈，不只是證券，還有我一直相信的「資源豐盛」：AI、GPU、機器人、太陽能，未來大家都能有充足的智慧、勞動力和幾乎免費的能源。要資助這個豐盛未來，就需要 DeFi 協議來抵押這些資產、資助重資本建設，然後用 Aave app 這類應用把收益分配給大家。Aave 想要幫助大家實現財務自由，這也是很多人進入這個圈子的原因。I mean, the blockchain is a very democratic tool. You know, open protocols, permissionless access really enable the most important access, which is the financial opportunity. Because inflation is what actually takes away the financial opportunity and also creates inequality and reduces opportunity. And everyone's dream is financial freedom. And I think that a lot of the fintech apps are going in the right direction. I think we can go more faster, and I think that at a global scale, we can create better financial opportunities, more sustainable. Through DeFi. And that's when all the assets also are moving on chain, not just securities, but also, you know, I have this thesis of funding the abundance. So I believe that, you know, with GPUs and AI and robotics, we basically are moving towards a world where everyone has abundant amount of intelligence, labor. And almost free energy with solar and batteries. And I think that funding this future of abundance, you need DeFi protocols where you can collateralize these assets and fund these CapEx-heavy operations and create yield, and then use applications like the Aave app to distribute that yield backed by these infrastructure primitives. That are backing the future that we want to live in, basically. And that's the thing, like we live in a very scarce world. There's scarcity everywhere, from like housing, from, you know, various different things. You know, people tend to want to live in crowded cities, and maybe the future is living sort of like anywhere in the world, having all the available resources and access. And this is what Aave wants to provide and really help you to achieve financial freedom. And I think a lot of people share the same vision, and they're also in the space for that reason.

15:58AI 與 Agentic 工具的未來

15:58最後一題，關於 agentic（自主代理）這一塊。你們怎麼規劃用 agentic 工具幫助使用者在 Aave 上鏈上找到更好的收益機會？未來 AI 會不會管理全世界的資金？Love it. So, last thing from me: agents, agentic side of things. We just got a couple seconds here. How do you plan to empower your users with agentic tools? To leverage better yield opportunities on Aave, on-chain, and get more bang for their buck, you know, leveraging some of the world's best intelligence on-chain on Aave. What's the strategy for that?

16:21Aave MCP（模型上下文協定）是我們剛推出的 agentic 起點。我們已經上線了 agentic Aave。我相信很快 AI 就會管理全世界的資金，當然還要看監管怎麼走。如果 AI 能做得更好、能幫大家實現財務自由，而且有安全機制，我覺得沒問題。未來 agentic 會帶來很多創新，像 agentic 支付，這會成為 DeFi 最大的使用者群。因為對 AI agent 來說，創建錢包比開銀行帳戶簡單太多，有穩定幣、支付協議、各種基礎設施，這些都是 AI agent 的原生環境。對人類來說，錢包地址、交易 hash 很難理解，但 agent 可以很快處理。關鍵是要設計好安全機制，哪些可以委託給 agent，哪些不行。我很期待看到更多基於 Aave 和 agent 的產品出現。I think using the Aave MCP is a really great starting point that we launched. So we launched the agentic Aave, and I think that we're going to reach a point where AI is going to manage all the money in the world at some point. Wow. At some point soon, actually. Not that. That depends, obviously, also on regulation. But in other words, like if AI can do it better and can achieve that financial freedom better, and there are safeguards, I don't see a problem with that. But I do think that a lot of innovation will happen with agentic. Innovation like agentic payments, and I think this is going to be a single biggest user group on DeFi because it is the perfect substrate. It's very simple to generate a wallet versus creating a bank account for an agent. You have stablecoins, you have means of payments, you have these protocols, so the infrastructure is very native for. For AI agents, zeros and ones, the transaction hashes, addresses, all of these things are hard for humans to kind of read and synthesize, but agents can do it very quickly. Exactly. That's, I think that's a really cool opportunity. And obviously you need to think about safety, like how do you add safeguards, you know, what you can actually delegate to an agent and whatnot. And I'm very excited to see products built on Aave and on agents.

17:43各位，掌聲鼓勵 Stani！Ladies and gentlemen, give it up for Stani.