Justin Sun：區塊鏈與 AI 代理人的金融未來

0:00穩定幣與使用者需求的洞察

0:00Justin，你認為當初市場低估了 TRON 的哪些地方？ 我回想 2017 年，當時大家談論加密貨幣，因為產業還很早期，多數人都只關注技術本身，像是你用什麼技術、哪個幣比較酷，而不是實際應用場景，至少在 2017 年是這樣。但我那時就一直思考，怎麼讓加密貨幣被日常使用者真正使用。讓人們不只是因為對加密貨幣有興趣才用，而是他們在日常生活中真的需要用到加密貨幣。這也是為什麼我很早就關注穩定幣，以及如何讓它在全球被廣泛應用。今天大家看到我們全球有超過 4 億使用者，這其實是我們從第一天就在做的事情。Justin, what did you get right about Tron that the market initially underestimated? Yeah, I think back to 2017. When people talk about cryptocurrency, because the industry is too early, people, most of them is focused on the technology, what kind of the technology you use and which coin is cool. Besides the real use case, at least in 2017. But of course, myself in 2017, thinking a lot about how to make crypto used by daily users, right? So people can use crypto not only they are interested in crypto, but they need crypto in their daily life. So that's why I'm thinking a lot about stablecoin and how to make it widely used globally. So that's why today people might see we have over 400 million users globally, but that's something I think we are doing.

1:29我們從第一天就在做這件事。你怎麼會知道這一點？ 其中一個原因是我創辦的第一家公司是 Web2 公司。投資人評估我們時，最重要的指標之一就是日活躍使用者數。也就是有多少人真的在用你的產品，以及他們為什麼要用。這非常重要。他們不是因為想賺錢才用你的產品，也不是因為在網路上看到才用。最好的理由應該是，他們真的需要這個產品。所以這一直是我進入加密產業時牢記在心的事。Doing it from day one. How did you know? One of the reasons is the first company I do is a Web2 company, right? So, like one of the most important metrics investors use to evaluate us is the daily active users. Right, so how many users use the product and why they are using the product, right? It's going to be very important. They are not using your product because they want to make money, or they use your product because they see it on the internet, right? The best... Reason should be, you know, they need the product, right? So that's why, you know, that's always something I bear in mind when I first get into the crypto industry.

2:27穩定幣與銀行的未來

2:27穩定幣最終會被銀行採用，還是會成為讓人們繞過銀行的技術？ 我認為加密貨幣的技術比銀行體系更好，因為銀行體系已經存在幾十年，幾乎沒什麼改變。但加密貨幣像現在的 AI 技術一樣，不斷在進步。例如，TRON 協議大約每兩週就會有新版本，基本上就是一個軟體，會根據世界的變化持續更新。所以我相信，這種能不斷自我升級的技術，絕對比一百年沒變過的東西更好。Are stablecoins ultimately something banks will use or a technology that allows people to bypass banks? Yes. So first of all, I did believe crypto is better technology compared to banking system, because banking system has been here for years and never changed at all. But crypto is technology like the AI we have today, right? is changing all the time. For example, Tron as a protocol, we have a new version like every two weeks, right? So, so basically it's a software. It's updated based on what happens in the world. So that's why I believe. If we have this kind of the technology can always update itself, it's definitely better than something never change for like a hundred years.

3:32你覺得未來銀行會用這些技術，還是會消失？ 我認為會有兩種情況。人們肯定會越來越少用銀行，因為現在 2000 年以後出生的人，對加密貨幣很熟悉，反而不太會用銀行。像我這個年紀，還是常常用銀行，但新一代我覺得他們不會再浪費時間在銀行上。所以我相信銀行會逐漸退出市場。But do you think the banks use this in the future or they're gone? I think two ways, you know, definitely. People are going to use less of the bank for sure, because I think people, if they born after 2000 or something, they will be very familiar with crypto, but, you know, don't know how to use banks, right? For my age, you know, I still use banks like all the time, but... For the new generation, I don't think they will waste their time on banks anymore. So that's why I believe banks will gradually, like, exit from the market.

4:16AI 代理人與區塊鏈的結合

4:16你剛剛提到 2000 年後出生的人可能不再用銀行，而是用加密貨幣基礎設施。現在大家都在談 AI 代理人。如果代理人可以持有、賺取、花費資金，為什麼還需要銀行？ 這是一個很好的問題。我認為未來五年最大的應用場景之一，就是代理人使用加密貨幣。因為加密貨幣不需要 KYC、不需要 AML，任何代理人都可以用 CLI 介面直接操作。代理人可以收發加密貨幣、穩定幣，全天候 24/7 運作。今天銀行和交易所沒辦法 24/7 結算，就是因為銀行不是這樣運作的。如果我們有穩定幣和區塊鏈基礎設施，就能讓 AI 代理人根據他們消耗的代幣，全天候做任何事。You mentioned the people born after 2000, right, that might just not use a bank anymore and use all these crypto rails. People, there's a lot of talk about all these AI agents today. Yes. If an agent can own money, earn money, spend money, why does it need a bank? Yes. So that's a great question. I think one of the biggest use cases we will predict in the next five years is agents using crypto. Right. One of the reasons Asian can using crypto is because crypto don't require KYC, crypto don't require AML, right? So basically any agent in the world has a very CLI-friendly user interface. So basically, they can just get the cryptocurrency, get stablecoin, make payments, receive payments, and work on all those things 24/7, right? One of the biggest reasons today's banks and the exchange, they cannot do 24/7 settlement is because The banks is not work like that way, right? So that's why I think if we have the stablecoin infrastructure, has the blockchain infrastructure, we can empower AI agents to do anything they want based on the token they consume in a 24/7 basis.

6:03為什麼這些資金一定要在區塊鏈上？AI 代理人的錢不能用其他方式嗎？ 現在大家都在談 AI 代理人和區塊鏈，這是未來趨勢。但我們也可以想像，有沒有可能最後不是全部都在區塊鏈上？其實區塊鏈最初發明時，並不是為了 AI，當時根本沒有 AI。區塊鏈是基於密碼學和 Satoshi 的白皮書，強調點對點技術。但我認為未來五到十年，區塊鏈會變得更重要，因為它是機器對機器的技術，而銀行服務完全是以人為本的技術。所以我相信區塊鏈未來非常有前景。Why does that money need to be on a blockchain? You mean the AI agent money? Yeah. Is there no other way? Because, like, now it's like everyone's talking about that, right? Yes. AI agents, blockchain, this is the future. Let's look at how this could not happen, or, like, is there something that could happen where it ends up not being on a blockchain or not fully? Yeah. So I think when... Blockchain first got invented is not for AI only, right? Because at that time there's no AI at all. So blockchain was invented based on cryptography and basically Satoshi. White paper about peer-to-peer technology, but essentially, I think in the next five, ten years, blockchain will be even more important because blockchain is a machine-to-machine technology rather than banking services, which is completely. Completely based on human technology. So that's why I believe blockchain will have a very promising future.

7:23現在有些人覺得區塊鏈好像在跟 AI 競爭，資金和人才都流向 AI。但我認為明年會看到很多 AI 領域的人回來，因為他們會發現，真正能驅動 AI 的最佳方式，其實是結合區塊鏈。Now some people is thinking about, it seems blockchain is compete with AI, right? Like all the people and all the money goes to AI. But I think next year we might see a lot of people in AI coming back because they find out actually the best way to powering AI is with blockchain.

7:49TRON 的機器經濟藍圖

7:49如果這個未來真的來臨，TRON 需要成為什麼樣的金融網路，才能服務機器經濟？ 我認為我們還是要專注在我們最擅長的事情。現在我們協議上大約有 1,000 億美元資產，每天處理 200 到 300 億美元的交易。我們會持續專注並支持全球各種穩定幣，像 USDT、USDD，以及其他法幣穩定幣發行商。我們歡迎所有代幣發行商在區塊鏈上發行他們的穩定幣。If this future is coming, what does Tron need to become to serve as the financial network for the machine economy? Yes. I think we should still focus on we are doing the best. So today we host around 100 billion U.S. dollars on the protocol and process around 20 to 30 billion dollars every day. I think we should focus, continue to focus and support. All the stablecoins around the world, USDT, USDD, and other stablecoin issuer with other fiat, we definitely welcome every token issuer to issue their stablecoin on the blockchain.

8:38另外，第二季我們會在 TRON 上發行代幣化股票。這很重要，因為要讓所有 TRON 使用者都能接觸到美國資產和國債，這對大家來說很關鍵。這也是我們第四季會專注的方向。此外，我們也在打造 BAI（B.ai），這是我們在 TRON 和其他區塊鏈上建構的全新 AI 路由平台，讓大家可以透過區塊鏈存取 AI API 和 CLI 介面，這也非常重要。And also on Q2, we are going to issue the tokenized stocks on Tron as well. Because this is very important to make sure all the Tron users can get exposure to U.S.-based assets and treasuries, so which is very important. That's something we're going to focus on Q4. And also, of course, with BAI, B.ai. The newly AI router platform we are building on Tron and all the blockchain, make sure people can use blockchain to get access to AI API and AI CLI interface is also very important.

9:25我們每天已經達到約 1.5 兆個 token 的處理量，這大約是 OpenRouter 第四季處理量的 25%。我認為明年我們有機會超越 OpenRouter。We have achieved around 1.5 trillion tokens per day. Which is around 25% of the volume of OpenRouter on Q4, and I think we will have chance to surpass OpenRouter for the next year.

9:44AI 時代的數學獎與科學激勵

9:44你最近推出了 Justin Sun Prize，目標是打造 AI 時代的諾貝爾獎。為什麼選擇數學？為什麼是現在？ 首先，加密貨幣本質上是建立在密碼學之上，而密碼學本來就是數學的一個很有趣的發展。所以我們想把在加密產業賺到的財富回饋給數學，讓更多資源幫助加密產業發展。最近我們也看到像 OpenAI 這樣的團隊，在數學領域有很多新突破。所以我認為傳統的諾貝爾獎，每年只頒給個人成就，對 AI 時代來說太慢了。我們需要一種以里程碑和 AI 為基礎的科學獎勵機制。You launched something called the Justin Sun Prize with the ambition of creating a Nobel Prize of the AI era. Why math? Yes. And why now? Yes. So first of all, I think crypto is based on cryptography, which is one of the very interesting developments from math in the first place. So that's why we want to give it back, the wealth we made in the crypto industry, back to math. To have more results to help crypto to develop. And also, we might recently seen, like OpenAI has developed so many new methodologies or new development on the different AI—sorry, on different math breakthroughs, right? So, so that's why I believe Nobel Prize, like a yearly based on your personal achievement prize is just too slow for the AI era. So we need to have this kind of milestone-based and AI-based scientific prize in the future.

11:06這也是我設立 Justin Sun Prize 的原因，讓科學家或 AI 只要持續有突破，每天都能獲得獎勵。我們不知道誰會解決這些問題，不管是人類、AI，甚至外星人都可以得獎。AI 也能拿這個獎。獎金多少？不同問題有不同獎金，最高一題是一百萬美元。有些題目已經被 OpenAI 解出來了。So that's why I set up Justine some prize, so which we can reward the scientists every day, as long as they keep, or AI. So we don't know who gonna solve those questions, right? So we're gonna reward no matter they are. Human, AI, aliens, you know, doesn't matter. So an AI could earn the prize. Yes. Which is how much? So we have different prize for different questions. The highest is one million dollars per questions. Yeah. So some of it already been... Won by OpenAI.

11:52財富、信任與人生觀

11:52有句話說，錢買不到幸福，但肯定會讓感情變複雜。你這個財富等級，錢會讓感情變得更容易，還是更難相信對方的動機？ 我覺得大部分人不了解，其實財富對感情沒有正面影響。談戀愛的目的是因為愛本身，但財富或你擁有的資產就像重力一樣，重力太大時，數學上來說，你在這種情境下做的實驗就不正確。所以你必須理解這一點，也要學著適應。I have to ask this question because probably a lot of people in the room have the same question. There's a saying that money can't buy happiness, but it can certainly complicate dating. At your level of wealth, does money make relationships easier? Or make it harder to trust people's intentions. Yes, I think most of the people don't understand. Actually, whilst I think it's not a positive impact on dating, I believe. So, because it's for dating, you know, your purpose is to find somebody. You love because the love itself, right? But I think money or the fortune you has is more like the gravity, right? So if the gravity is too high, mathematically speaking, so basically. The experiment you done in those circumstances is just not the right one, right? So, yeah, that's something you need to understand, but, you know, you need to just get used to it.

13:19你怎麼解決這個問題？你是個解決問題的人。 我第一次當然沒成功，但我會繼續努力。How do you solve that problem? Yeah, you're a problem solver. Yeah, I didn't succeed, obviously, for the first time, but I will keep trying.

13:31未來十年的願景

13:31如果十年後我們再見，你最希望世界有什麼改變，而且跟 TRON 無關？ 對我來說，我想做跟 AI 和健康有關的事，思考怎麼用 AI 工具讓每個人的健康都受益。謝謝 Justin，也謝謝大家的聆聽。If we meet again in 10 years, what do you want to have changed about the world that has nothing to do with Tron? For me, I want to do something related to AI and health and... How to use AI tools to benefit everybody's health. Thank you, Justin, and thank you everyone for your attention.