機構資金流入加密市場新局：CME、Coinbase、Invesco、GSR 深度對談

0:00機構資金流入加密市場新局

0:00各位女士先生，感謝大家來到這場討論。這次會議有很多不同的舞台可以選擇，很高興你們選擇來聽我們聊聊機構加密市場的現況。我們今天邀請到三位來自產業不同角度的特別來賓：資產管理、加密原生交易所，以及衍生品巨頭 CME。Well, ladies and gentlemen, thanks so much for joining us here. There's a lot of stages from which to choose, so we're very pleased that you decided to sit on this session to discuss what's happening in the institutional crypto market, and we have three very special panelists from different vantage points of the industry: asset management, crypto native exchange, and of course CME being the derivatives powerhouse.

0:36我們都來自美國，但這次在新加坡。想請教大家，從 ETF 到期貨等機構產品的發展，是否讓流動性從海外逐漸轉移到美國？I guess we can sort of just start with one question, given that we're all U.S.-based, but here in Singapore. How has the development of institutional product from ETFs to futures shifted the concentration of liquidity from offshore to the United States?

0:57ETF 與期貨推動機構參與

0:57很高興回到新加坡。回顧這個產業的演進，CME 早在 2017 年 12 月就進入加密領域。我們算是加密衍生品的天然主場，也協助這個生態系成長。當年剛上線時，日均交易量約 1 億美元，去年已經成長到 120 億。我們有一系列參考價格和即時指數，成為許多現貨 ETF 的基礎。特別是現貨 ETF 推出後，明顯看到流動性轉移。Yeah, thank you so much, and it's great to be back in Singapore. I think when you look at just the evolution of the space, CME first entered this space back in December 2017. We are the natural home for crypto derivatives, and we really helped to grow this ecosystem. Just considering that when we first launched back then, we were averaging about $100 million a day. Last year, we averaged $12 billion. We have a family of reference rates and real-time indices that are the underlying references for a lot of the spot ETFs. And what we noticed, particularly with the introduction of spot ETFs, is that you started to see really a shift.

1:40加密貨幣一開始主要是散戶驅動，永續合約也是偏零售市場。直到我們的期貨和 2024 年初現貨 ETF 上市後，才開始看到越來越多機構進場。2023 年我們日均交易量約 20 億美元，ETF 上市後變成 70 億，去年更達 120 億。機構參與度明顯提升。When you consider, like, how crypto started, it was primarily retail-driven. Perpetuals came along pretty early, also a fairly retail-driven product. But it was really until our futures launched and then those spot ETFs launched in early 2024 that we started seeing more and more institutions enter the space. Just to put that in perspective, in 2023, we averaged about $2 billion a day. When the ETFs launched in 2024, we average about $7 billion a day, and like I mentioned, $12 billion last year. So we are seeing more and more institutions come into the space.

2:20ETF 讓傳統機構、避險基金、銀行等能夠進場。過去他們不願意或無法在未受監管的平台或中心化交易所交易，但 ETF 改變了這一切。從成交量和未平倉量來看，ETF 日均成交約 30 億美元，資產規模約 1,000 億，換手率很低。相比之下，永續合約成交量高但未平倉量低，機構目前還沒大量採用這類產品。And I would also characterize that the way that these different participants integrate with the marketplace, the ETFs allowed for traditional institutions, the hedge funds, the banks, to really enter the space. Where they couldn't previously or weren't comfortable trading on some of the unregulated platforms or even some of the centralized exchanges, but the ETFs really changed that. And I think a good thing to look at is just look at volume compared to open interest. When you see the volume of the ETFs, I think this year they're averaging about $3 billion a day. You look at the AUM. The AUM is about 100 billion, so very low turnover ratio. You compare that now to perpetuals. Perpetuals, extremely high volume, but really low open interest. You tend to see a lot of churn, but you really don't see institutions adapting to those products at the moment.

3:22傳統機構偏好 ETF 與代幣化產品

3:22我們觀察到，傳統客戶還是偏好透過熟悉的投資工具來接觸數位資產。這也是為什麼 Invesco 從 2019 年就開始推動加密 ETP，在美國和歐洲都有布局。這些產品的配置比例正在提升，機構也開始關注質押等新功能，或接受現貨資產入帳，讓產品機會變得更多元。現在也看到從單一加密 ETP 轉向多資產、複合型產品的趨勢。Yeah, I think it's really interesting because, you know, what we've seen from traditional clients especially is they still really want to gain digital asset exposure through traditional vehicles. And that's why at Invesco we've been focusing on really launching crypto ETPs and supporting them since 2019, both in the U.S. and Europe. What we are seeing is higher allocation to those products. And also, I think they're getting more intrigued by the net utility that can be created. So things like integrating staking into certain products that are applicable, different ways to accept certain spot offerings in kind. So that has really, I think, widened the opportunity. And hopefully, I think now what we're seeing is a movement from more single-spot crypto ETPs to more multi-asset and complex offerings. And that's really on the traditional vehicle side of things.

4:17同時我們也看到機構開始關注代幣化產品。這類產品目前的投資人多半是完全在鏈上管理資產或業務的客戶，而且買家來自全球各地。這其實很有趣，代表機構採用的型態正在多元化。What we're in parallel seeing is really a focus on tokenized products. And with that, that is a different right now investor base. It is more on-chain clients who manage their either entire portfolio or business on-chain. But what's interesting is actually who is buying those is actually pretty global in nature. It's interesting.

4:38機構採用的兩大路徑：代幣化與資產配置

4:38你剛剛的回答很能體現「機構採用」這個詞的兩面性。一方面是像紐約證交所等推出代幣化股票平台，推動 RWA（實體資產上鏈）；另一方面則是機構直接配置比特幣、以太幣等加密資產本身。Coinbase 這幾季財報常常會更新頂級避險基金客戶的拓展情況，想請問你們有觀察到新的機構買家進場嗎？從資產配置角度來看，滲透率如何？Your answer really captures the dichotomy that exists in, you know, the phrase institutional adoption, right? On one end, it could mean the adoption of tokenization and real-world assets, that is to say, like we're seeing with New York Stock Exchange and other exchanges rolling out tokenized equities platforms. On the other end, right, it's the actual allocation to these crypto assets themselves, right, to Bitcoin, Ethereum, and then the long tail. Liz. One thing that I've always enjoyed in following the earnings of your firm, Coinbase, is there's been a number of, I don't know if it's every earnings, but they often give an update on the extent to which they've expanded the client base among the top largest hedge funds. So focusing on that sort of allocation element. Are you noticing that there's a net new buyer of crypto assets? What does that sort of penetration look like from the allocator perspective?

5:44我基本同意剛剛兩位的看法，ETF 是很大的推動力，但其實還很早期。不過今年確實有看到新的機構買家進場，因為美國監管明朗化，很多觀望多年的機構終於開始加碼。傳統機構還是偏好 ETF 這類熟悉的產品，對永續合約興趣較低。不過我們確實看到新買家出現，尤其是近期 AI 和大型科技股漲多後，部分主動型避險基金開始把資金轉進加密貨幣，作為分散配置。I largely agree with both of your comments, which are ETFs are a big driver, and it's still pretty early. But we do see net new buyers actually this year in particular because there's been so much more regulatory clarity in the U.S. in particular. People that have been waiting for, you know, a couple years, and you're trying to figure out when, not if. They would put more into the space and increase their allocations, are really coming to the table. I agree in the traditional institutional space, they like the more traditional vehicles, so you don't see the same interest, let's say, in perps as you would see in, you know, an ETF or spot. But we're definitely seeing the net new buyer, and then I would say more locally, you know, as there's been a pretty strong AI trade, obviously, and big tech trade over, you know, the past number of years. And so as you start to see some rotation out of that, I think we've seen that's where more of, like, the active hedge fund community has been more involved as they use crypto as, you know, an avenue to kind of roll out of some of the big tech and some of the AI and diversify a little bit.

7:13ETF 從交易工具變成資產配置管道

7:13一開始機構（特別是避險基金）進場多半是做套利，像是基差交易，並不是長期配置。但現在開始看到真正的資產配置進來。ETF 的資產規模成長，就是因為有人長期持有，而不是只做套利。這代表 ETF、ETP 這些工具，從純交易工具變成真正的資產配置管道。這也改變了市場結構。So on sort of how institutions started to coming into the space, particularly like hedge funds, it was a lot of basis trading, so more arbitrage, not really allocation. But I think a trend that we're starting to see now is that you're really beginning to see the allocators into the space. And just going back to the point on the ETF, you see the growth in AUM on those products because you see people holding positions and not just there to capture, you know, an arb. It's a great point. I mean, what you're describing, right, is the shift from a lot of these tools, these ETPs, ETFs, from being trading tools to actual access vehicles, right?

7:56隨著機構資金流入，你會發現市場波動性也有變化。現在市場下跌時，會有機構買盤承接，這些機構通常持有較久，不會輕易賣出。像我們去年收購了全球最大加密選擇權交易所 Deribit，昨天剛完成與 Coinbase Global Exchange 的整合。機構進場後，會用賣出選擇權等方式賺取收益，這也讓波動性降低。比特幣期貨剛上市時，波動率超過 100，現在大多在 30-40 之間，接近歷史低點。So how has that changed the— maybe get your take on how that's changed the dynamics of this market and its market structure. With more institutional flows, have we noticed any sort of fundamental changes in maybe the volatility or the dynamics of crypto over these past, let's call it the past year or so? Yeah, I'll jump in. I mean, it's still early, but I think with more institutional adoption, you definitely have a more, you have a bid. You know, there's a bid below the market. If, you know, crypto sells off, you see buyers are standing there. Some of the institutional holders are longer holders, right? So corporates, high net worth doesn't usually sell. They buy when it goes down. DATs usually are, you know, are net buyers. And so we have seen sort of a bid below. And I think the other thing that's really been interesting is, you know, we—acquired the largest crypto options exchange in the world, Deribit, about a year ago and announced the completion of that integration yesterday with Coinbase Global Exchange. But, you know, you also have the more natural things that many institutions would do when they allocate, which is, you know, sell calls to get yield, maybe buy put-to-sell calls. And so you do get some dampening of kind of volatility. Where if it goes down, they're net buyers, and if it goes up, you have, like, you know, market makers are long a lot of gamma and, you know, are net sellers. So you get the volatility, I think, helps as well. But certainly we have seen, like, volatility come down in the space. Like when we launched Bitcoin futures, volatility was triple digits, well in excess of 100. You look at Bitcoin volatility now, and it's, you know, pretty consistent in the 30 to 40. And really trading near historical lows.

10:04機構敘事轉向基礎建設與代幣化

10:04我們在後台聊到，現在機構關注的敘事已經不只是「什麼是加密貨幣」，而是「區塊鏈基礎建設會如何改變金融業」。大家討論的不只是投資策略，還有怎麼用區塊鏈提供更好的解決方案給客戶。現在機構談論最多的是代幣化、如何加速結算、提升資本效率等議題。One thing that we were talking about while we were waiting in the wings, so to speak, in the speaker lounge, were the narratives, right, that are maybe resonating with institutions. Have you folks in your conversations—I know you're flying everywhere all the time and talking to all sorts of allocators—have you noticed that those narratives have cemented and people are grokking the value proposition of what these assets present? Absolutely. I think what's really interesting from a narrative perspective is still a ton of interest and excitement around what digital asset investment strategies can be launched. But actually, the big shift is really trying to understand the new infrastructure that blockchain technology actually provides and how it's going to impact their ability to actually provide solutions to clients going forward as well. And so it's really a lot more about how does this fundamentally shift how we operate over time as well, beyond just digital asset investment strategies, which are still absolutely critical. And we've moved from what is it, what's a cryptocurrency, to really now what's possible, right? And you talk to more and more institutions, and it's all about, a lot of talks about tokenization and—And really, how can we tap into that? How can we generate faster settlement times? You know, how can we create some more capital efficiencies?

11:15其實現在連傳統大銀行都開始投入這個領域，像我以前的公司也推出自己的 ETF，還有幫忙託管 IBIT 等產品。傳統金融機構投入的資金規模其實很驚人，因為大家都意識到新基礎建設的重要性，開始建立核心能力，準備未來發行和管理更多代幣化產品。You're a newer entrant, Liz, in some respects. Do your former colleagues or folks from your old world see the value more than maybe they did when you left 11 months ago? I mean, they're certainly putting their investment dollars behind it. You know, if they think of my old firm, you know, they're launching their own ETFs. They're obviously getting involved. They custody a lot of IBIT and things like that. So, you know, you're definitely seeing even the large TradFi banks find their space as well in the area. Which is pretty incredible how much investment has actually gone into the ecosystem as well from traditional institutions as well. Again, because of that shift into new infrastructure, and so really seeing the need to actually start building that core capability to be able to launch and manage more tokenized products going forward.

12:09加密推動傳統金融創新與 24/7 交易

12:09現在看起來，加密產業反而推動傳統金融創新。像 24/7 交易、永續合約、RWA 等，都是加密圈先做，傳統金融才跟進。全球使用者已經習慣隨時交易比特幣，現在連美股永續合約也能 24 小時交易，這讓傳統股市不得不回應。Coinbase 的目標就是用密碼學和區塊鏈改善金融系統，這種影響力已經擴散到其他領域。It almost seems like crypto, in many ways, is pushing traditional finance towards new products, right? It's almost in the driver's seat in terms of, you know, the push towards 24/5 or 24/7 perpetuals, and then of course RWAs. You know, I don't know the extent to which things like, you know, perpetual markets have given an indication to where we'll open on a given, you know, over the weekend. But it seems like there's eyes there, there's attention. Do you see crypto driving, you know, I guess the question pertains more to you two than Liz, non-crypto specific efforts and endeavors? Absolutely. I think especially right now when it comes to tokenized products, I mean, we're actually, like, you know, rolling a tokenized product if it creates net new utility, so either net new benefits. And that really comes from actually working with, like, you know, on-chain native clients to better understand what their needs are, what are their requirements to these offerings, because right now they are our target audience for delivering these solutions. And I think that we're really moving toward a world where it's not going to be TradFi. It's not going to be DeFi. It's going to be somewhere in the middle. You know, it's going to be more of a hybrid type model, and maybe we don't talk HiFi, for example, but eventually it's just finance, right? Yeah. But I think you're right. There is, I don't think it's crypto that has, you know, kind of driven the progress, but, you know. I think it's actually the firms that originally were trading crypto, creating these exchanges, creating these products, really raised the bar on what's possible. And so, you know, once you get a big retail community around the world that gets used to trading 24/7 on Bitcoin, and then the same, on the same venue, they can trade 24/7 on an equity perp. Suddenly the equity market has to respond to the fact that people are trading Nvidia 24/7 outside the U.S., and there's not that same access for non-U.S. people generally to get access to those same U.S. stocks, and even now U.S. people are dying to trade 24/7 as well. And so I think it's more that crypto, the crypto companies themselves and the way that people traded have now actually pushed the bar. And so, you know, at Coinbase, we say that, like, we're trying to improve the financial system through, like, the use of cryptography and blockchain. And I think that's what's kind of happening. And so we see it in other parts as well as—You know, once you start talking about tokenization, we've seen probably the best use cases in tokenization outside of stablecoins in, you know, tokenized equity trading globally. But now all the institutions are trying to figure out, like, should I be using tokenized money market funds or stocks or things like that as collateral? Is it easier to move that around 24/7 for derivatives collateral around the world, you know, and those types of things. And so I think it's just sort of raise the bar. I think that's fair.

15:20流動性碎片化與資本效率新挑戰

15:20未來單一股票可能有上千種交易方式，這會帶來流動性碎片化的問題。現在各平台都在推永續合約，大家都想搶這塊市場。長遠來看，機構投資人還是會選擇受監管、可信賴、有 KYC 的平台下單，這有助於整合流動性。真正影響使用者的碎片化，其實是資本效率不足。現貨、永續、選擇權都在不同平台，沒辦法統一結算。Coinbase 最近推出單一投資組合和統一保證金，對散戶很有幫助，但機構更需要像傳統金融那樣的全方位 prime broker，能整合交易、融資、借貸、託管、質押等服務，這才是解決碎片化、提升資本效率的關鍵。You can imagine a future where there's going to be an order of magnitude of new ways to trade a single equity name, right? You'll have a thousand different ways to express a view on any given name or asset, which raises the question of to what extent does that introduce new fragmentation to the market and fragment liquidity. Going back to the, you know, kind of first question, where will liquidity be concentrated? Yeah, for sure. I mean, you keep seeing different platforms now offering perpetuals. It seems that, you know, everybody seems to be wanting to offer those products. And to your point, Frank, it does create a fragmentation issue. But I think longer term, you know, we'll probably see some consolidation. You know, I think that particularly institutional investors are going to seek trusted, regulated, you know, KYC firms to execute positions. So I think that that will help, you know, bring some of that fragmentation in. Liquidity is going to continue to remain, you know, very important. And I think also, you know, to the points that Liz was making, it's those platforms, those exchanges that could offer a few things, right, and offer sort of like the most choice to a client base and allow them the ability, say, to settle faster, allow them the ability to realize capital efficiency so they don't have to have capital allocated across all these different venues. I 100% agree with that. You know, I think traditionally we talk about fragmentation of, like, liquidity on exchanges, which is important, but technology has made that. We've shown in equities markets, or, you know, globally, that technology can solve that problem. For this market in particular, the real fragmentation that hurts customers in the end is the lack of capital efficiency. Spot trades on one venue, perps trade on another venue, options trade on another venue. Can you actually, like, net your portfolio of equity perps with crypto perps? And so I think there's two things, you know, in the announcements that we made yesterday about sort of, you know, with Coinbase Advanced and having single portfolios and being able to actually get, like, one margin score, one posting of collateral across all your positions. That's very cool for the retail investor. But for institutional investors, that's where, like, the prime broker comes in. And so what you're seeing, and there's not many that do it at full service. Coinbase Prime does. There's probably a couple others that do. But the importance for institutional investors of having a full-scale prime broker in the same way you would have, it's like TradFi plus. You know, you can trade, you can finance, you can get borrow, you can custody, you can stake. All of that in one place is really the thing that reduces the fragmentation for institutions, because most institutions aren't going to deal with, like, the auto liquidations on a single exchange. They're going to want their prime broker to manage that. You know, and that's the big bringing that together. The prime brokers that can do that are the ones that take away the fragmentation and get the capital efficiency for institutions. Without that, I don't think you can have institutional adoption beyond just people buying ETFs. Like, they won't be able to trade anything else. And also the ability to actually operate, like, these tokenized products actually on-chain. Like, what we're seeing right now is a lot of issuers are actually issuing these products. We need to actually put them to work, and that's where, like, the innovation exemption in the U.S., that's going to really help unlock that and really create utility for us to be able to do so. Because, you know, if you look at every tokenized product, it has their own AML/KYC requirements, right? Like, their own ways to operate, and that needs to really change.

19:03未來五年：傳統券商與代幣化資產

19:03五年後的 prime broker 會長什麼樣？像 Morgan Stanley、UBS 這類傳統券商會不會開始把訂單導向代幣化平台？目前大多還是加密原生 prime broker 在做，但股票代幣化可能會逼傳統券商加入。美國 SEC 剛通過的創新豁免，雖然允許代幣化股票交易，但範圍很窄，短期內不會有大量代幣化股票在美國交易。不過我們跟資產管理客戶溝通時，三分之二都對代幣化很有興趣，無論是用於分銷還是資金、抵押品流動。未來每個 prime broker 都得支援這些功能，但真正大規模採用還需要時間，這是網路效應問題，產業還需要幾年才會成熟。What does a prime broker look like in five years where you have tokenized equities? So, you know, I'm thinking about the ilk of the Morgan Stanleys and, you know, UBSs of the world. Are they routing orders to tokenized venues? How are they maybe thinking about those flows? I mean, at this point, the majority of that still remains in, you know, crypto-backed prime brokers. But I think equity tokenization is probably the thing that will force the, let's say, TradFi prime broker to get involved and—It's not as obvious at the moment, the innovation exemption that the SEC just put forward in the U.S., which actually allows, in a permissive but also very restrictive way, the ability to trade tokenized equities in the U.S. I think that we'll learn from, but it's quite narrow. So it's not. 100% clear that we're going to have an enormous amount of tokenized equities trading in the U.S. in particular. But what is clear is that, you know, when we talk to our asset management customers, you know, two-thirds of them are extremely interested in using tokenization either for distribution or for money movements and capital and collateral movements. And so I think every—Prime broker will have to support that. Now the question is pace of adoption, and I think that's the big thing. It's, you know, with tokenization right now, particularly for institutions, everybody's talking about it. It's like the topic du jour. Everybody feels like they need to figure out a strategy, but there's a network effect that has to happen there. You know, sort of the people who want to use it to collateralize or have to have people who will take it, and there needs to be more than just two. And so it's a network effect, and so I think the pace of—I think it will take longer than people think. For the amount of conversation we're talking about right now in the industry, it makes it feel like it's six months out. It's probably a couple years. We didn't bring our crystal balls to Singapore, right? But to drive that, you need more market participants, right? I mean, more institutional market participants, and that's where, you know, we need to have more use cases. Like right now, tokenized money market funds have found great product-market fit, but we need more tokenized equities, tokenized ETPs, tokenized private credit in order to have, you know, more liquidity and more options on-chain. I think there's a lot of great progress with what's happening around stablecoin adoption, and that probably will help really enable Flywheel to have more liquidity to be able to launch more tokenized products. But I think the other thing that we'll need, right, because to the point that you made is that right now we do have prime brokers in the space, but they're, you know, say crypto prime brokers. But I think what we really need is the banks to really step into the space, because if you want to do these businesses at scale and you want to see larger institutions come in, I think that you really do need the banks to start playing ball. Liz is showing them how it's done. Trying.

22:08機構化過程的高估與低估

22:08你們覺得現在機構化過程中，最被高估和低估的是什麼？我認為最被高估的是大家以為一切會很快發生，其實還需要時間。有銀行預估 2030 年加密市場規模會破兆，穩定幣也會從 3,000 億成長到 3 兆。最被低估的則是依規則運作的集合投資工具，這會帶來很多新機會。So what do we think is the most overrated and underrated element of crypto institutionalization that, you know, captures the zeitgeist? I would say, you know, I think the most overrated is what we just mentioned, is that everything's going to happen all at once. Like, this is going to take time. I mean, it is pretty staggering, some of these estimates we're seeing. You know, I think that a large bank estimated that by 2030, the bull case is over a trillion. That's a little over three years away. Same with stablecoins, from 300 billion to 3 trillion by 2030 as well. Underrated, we're very excited for Revolts. You know, thinking of, you know, really rules-based pooled investment vehicles really brings a lot of opportunities for new solutions potential for clients.

22:54我覺得代幣化被高估了，大家以為什麼都能代幣化，其實不是萬靈丹，但確實是正確方向，只是需要時間。被低估的反而是 ETF 和期貨的影響，這些產品的流動性基礎，才是真正吸引機構進場的關鍵。Yeah, I think overrated. You know, we spoke a lot about tokenization, for example, but we have to realize that it's not a panacea, right? You can't tokenize everything. Not everything should be tokenized, but it's a step in the right direction. It's going to take a little time. And I think underrated, you know, just going back to that point on perpetuals. I think the movements that we've seen with the introduction of the ETFs has been really underrated by the space, because I think that the ETFs and the futures that, you know, the backing liquidity of the futures of Bakkt has really been instrumental in bringing institutions into crypto.

23:32我同意，代幣化會改變金融系統，但需要時間。被低估的是這個產業對傳統金融的推動力。十年後回頭看，會發現如果沒有加密產業，傳統金融不會有這麼多創新，像私募股權、私募信貸的代幣化，讓更多人能參與、交易更有彈性，這才是最被低估的地方。I think overrated. I said it in my last answer. I just think tokenization is going to take some time, but it will change things. It will make the financial system better. I mean, there does need to be sort of a rewrite of that infrastructure, but it's going to take some time. Underrated, I actually think is not giving credit to this industry for how much it's actually pushed the TradFi industry. Like somebody, you know, we're going to look back on this, you know, 10 years from now and say, we wouldn't have had all the purpification that we're seeing. We wouldn't have had as many, as many. Assets suddenly have access for people because, you know, you tokenize private equity, private credit. I mean, I think this industry is really driving forward change and forcing the banks and TradFi institutions to let more people around the table, more people have access, more flexibility in how you trade, and I think that's very underrated.

24:30產業合作與標準化推動成長

24:30合作其實很重要，傳統機構和鏈上原生團隊合作，能結合雙方優勢，創造有意義的產品。像我們在美國就和 Superstate 合作發行代幣化產品。這個產業其實競爭中也有很多合作，大家共同目標都是讓市場更大。未來要讓更多資本上鏈、建立產業標準、提升互通性，這些都需要大家一起努力。And let me just add that too. That's also that collaboration is critical. It's actually how this conversion. So traditional institutions partnering with these on-chain native expertise. So, I mean, like, you know, for us, for example, we, in our tokenized products so far, partnered with Superstate in the United States. It's been an incredible collaboration, taking the best of both worlds and really being able to create meaningful products. But I think that's an excellent point, right? Because when I think about this space. We're competitors in some respects, but we're also collaborators. I think that we all have, like, the same common goal to grow this space, right? So we can be competitors, but I think that we're more collaborators than competitors. And we need to collaborate to also grow the space. You know, it's still very early days. You know, think about how much capital potentially will move on-chain. Like that ability to collaborate, to create industry standards, to create ways to, you know, have more interoperability. Like these are real problems that we're having right now that we need to come together to find solutions for.

25:25不過現在會議真的太多了，大家都快累壞了。像我上週才在首爾，下週又要去葡萄牙，飛來飛去真的很累。We could use a little. Less conferences, I think, though. It's a lot of conferences. I'm getting tired. A lot of airline points, though. You were in Seoul just last week. Yeah, I was in Seoul last week, going to Portugal next week. It's too much.

25:42未來一年：新型抵押品與多元產品

25:42展望未來 12 個月，機構加密市場會有什麼結構性變化？我認為現貨加密 ETF 會成為主要進場管道，但最大不同會是穩定幣、代幣化貨幣市場基金、代幣化抵押品的接受度提升，這會加速整體採用。So 12 months from now, what do you think will be structurally different about the institutional crypto space? Relative to today, I think some of the elements are already there, right? You know, I think you'll continue to see sort of spot crypto regulated, spot crypto regulated ETFs. I think that that becomes sort of like more of the access point. But I think what's going to be different then, though, is things like stablecoin, the acceptance of, you know, tokenized money market funds and tokenized collateral in general, which will really help to accelerate overall adoption.

26:27我希望未來能看到更多多資產、複合型產品，代幣化方面則需要更多實用案例。像代幣化投資產品如果能落地，會帶來更有意義的採用。Maybe just where I started with the two different verticals. I hope from a crypto perspective, we see more multi-asset, more complex offerings. From a tokenization perspective, we need to have more utility use cases. Like, again, like that is something where I think that hopefully with tokenized CTPs especially, we'll see much more meaningful adoption given all the innovation happening there.

26:45我覺得最令人興奮的是穩定幣的成長速度，未來會更快。這也是傳統金融和 DeFi 融合的關鍵。我們剛宣布和 Samsung Wallet 合作，用穩定幣做跨境支付，也和花旗銀行合作成為穩定幣基礎設施。去年穩定幣流通量成長近 100%，解決了週末、跨境資金移動等傳統銀行無法解決的問題，這股趨勢只會越滾越大。I think one of the most exciting things now is just the rate of growth of stablecoin use, and I think that will continue and really accelerate. And that is one of the places where you're seeing people making big, bold moves to blend, you know, TradFi and DeFi here. I mean, we announced a big partnership with Samsung Wallet here around using stablecoins for cross-border payments, which we announced earlier this morning. We announced a deal with Citibank about being their rails for stablecoin infrastructure. And so I will say, like, just, I mean, circulation of stablecoins was up nearly 100% last year. I mean, it's the pace is really fast there, and the use cases add—they've solved real problems, like real problems of moving things, you know, moving money over weekends, moving money across borders. I mean, things that the traditional banking system hasn't solved. So that. I just think it's like a ball rolling down the hill right now. It's just going to keep picking up. Amazing. Let's give them a round of applause.