Ethena、ether.fi 雙強對談：穩定幣驅動新型銀行革命

0:00雙強聯手：穩定幣新篇章

0:00大家好，今天很有趣。我好像還沒參加過雙人主題演講，這次應該會很特別。有些人可能已經在 X 上看到我們的公告，我們今天要聊的內容真的很令人興奮，特別是 EtherFi 與 Ethena 合作推出的穩定幣。先來個簡單自我介紹，然後再跟大家分享我們在做什麼。Hello everyone. This is fun. I don't know that I've ever done a dual keynote, so we'll see. It should be interesting. So some of you may have seen the announcement on X, but we have some pretty exciting things to talk about, specifically this stablecoin that EtherFi is launching with the help of Ethena. So first, we'll do a bit of an intro and then tell you more about what we're doing.

0:36大家好，我是Guy Young，Ethena的創辦人。我們大約三年前開始這個事業，而我們的核心理念是——提供一個任何人只要有網路連線就能使用的美元儲蓄產品，這是金融領域中最有趣的問題之一，同時也是全球最大可觸及市場之一。所以我們大約兩年前推出了第一個產品，也就是USDe。自從那次發佈以來，USDe在大約十八個月內從零成長到一百五十億美元。從那之後，我們也開始圍繞這個產品建立不同的業務板塊。Hey everyone, my name is Guy Young, founder of Ethena. We started the business around three years ago now, and the core thesis we had was—delivering a dollar savings product that anyone in the world could access with just an internet connection was one of the most interesting sort of problems that you could work on in finance and sort of one of the largest addressable markets in the world. So we started the first product around two years ago now, which was USDe. That scaled from around zero to $15 billion in around 18 months since that launch. And then started to build out different pieces of the business around that since then.

1:13我們有一個白標穩定幣基礎設施業務，今天我們要帶大家一起了解這個業務。此外，我們也宣布了 Ethena Pay，這個產品有點像是在延續 Mike 和 EtherFi 幾年前所開創的產品類別。所以我非常興奮能在這裡和大家一起討論這個產品。So we have a white-label stablecoin infrastructure business, and that's what we're going to be walking through today. And then also announced Ethena Pay, which is sort of following in the footsteps of the product category that Mike and EtherFi sort of pioneered a couple of years ago. So super excited to be here and talk through the product with you guys.

1:33嗨，我是Mike Silagadze。我是EtherFi的共同創辦人之一，也是現任執行長。EtherFi創建並營運了一家加密貨幣新型數位銀行，基本上它是一個完整端到端、以DeFi為基礎的傳統銀行替代方案。所以你應該能夠把你的整個金融生活都搬到鏈上，並且不需要真的做出任何犧牲。透過這樣的方式，我們成為這個非託管類別中最大的加密貨幣新型數位銀行。我們大約有五十萬名使用者，交易量達數十億美元，總存款（包含我們的質押資產）大約有六十五億美元。所以我會說，這幾年來的旅程真的非常精彩刺激。Hi, I'm Mike Silagadze. I'm one of the founders and CEO of EtherFi. EtherFi has created and operates a crypto neobank, which is basically meant to be a full end-to-end alternative to traditional banking, but built on DeFi rails. So you should be able to live your entire financial life on-chain and not really have to make any sacrifices. By doing that. We are the largest in this non-custodial category of crypto neobanks. We have about half a million users, a couple billion in transaction volume, in total about six and a half billion in deposits, including our staking assets. So I would say, I mean, it's been a wild ride over the last few years.

2:22我會說，ether.fi 和 Ethena 在很多方面幾乎就像姊妹公司一樣。我們有很多共同的投資人。我們實際上也有互相作為天使投資人投資對方的公司。所以和 Ethena 團隊合作並持續一起努力，感覺非常自然。這也是我今天很興奮能談論這個主題的另一個原因。And I would say EtherFi and Ethena, in many ways, have been almost like sister companies. We share a lot of investors. We actually angel invested in each other's companies. So it has felt very natural partnering and continuing to work with the Ethena team. So that's another reason why I'm excited to talk about this today.

2:44DeFi 新銀行的願景與現實

2:44我剛剛已經簡單介紹過 EtherFi。我們的目標就是打造 DeFi 版的 Revolut，如果要一句話形容的話。今天，這件事終於真的有可能實現。其實就算是一年前，這些事都還做不到，像我們和 Ethena Pay 現在做的這些事。I guess maybe I'll start. Well, I already explained, I guess, what EtherFi is. As I said, what we're trying to do is to build DeFi Revolut, if you want a, you know, a quick soundbite. And I think today, for the first time, it's become genuinely possible to actually do that. I would say even a year ago, it probably wouldn't have been possible to do the kind of stuff that, you know, we've been doing and Ethena Pay is doing.

3:13好的，所以簡單總結一下 Ethena Pay 的部分，我認為許多產品設計決策和願景，以及我對這個產品的看法，其實影響了現在很多人對這類產品的思考方式。我們在這裡的核心想法，是把我們兩年前推出市場的核心資產作為基礎。我一直在思考，該如何將這個產品的流通擴展到加密貨幣圈以外的使用者群體。我想大家都很清楚，目前在加密貨幣和 DeFi 領域裡的大部分資金和資本，其實就是左口袋換到右口袋，大家只是在彼此之間轉來轉去而已。Yeah, so just to summarize some of the Ethena Pay, I think a lot of the sort of product design decisions and vision and my kind of this product has informed the way that a lot of people are thinking about these products today. So the core idea behind what we're doing here is taking the core asset that we brought to market two years ago. I've been really thinking about how do we grow the distribution of that product to a user base that exists outside of crypto. So I think it's no secret that a lot of the money and capital that exists within crypto and within DeFi is sort of just left pocket, right pocket, just shuffling, you know, coins between each other.

3:46我確實認為，這類產品的形式，也就是你提供儲蓄體驗、消費體驗以及轉帳體驗，並且以人們在現實世界中習慣的方式來呈現，這真的是其中一種最大型、或者說能夠觸及最多數量使用者的產品，特別是那些原本不在這個領域裡的使用者。While I do think that the form factor of these type of products, where you're delivering a savings experience, spending experience, and sending experience. In an experience that people are used to in the normal world is really one of, like, the largest, or, like, products that can reach the largest number of users that exist outside of the space.

4:04所以，整個應用程式的設計基本上都是建立在USDe之上。每一塊進入這個應用程式的美元，都可以免費入金，並且會自動轉換成USDe，預設就是存在應用程式裡的儲蓄，所以你隨時都在賺取收益。每當、或說每一秒，只要有一塊錢放在這個應用程式裡，你就會有收益。我們也打造了多幣別的功能，你可以免費用其他貨幣入金，不管是轉成美元，還是轉成大約五種美元以外的儲蓄資產。當然，也有圍繞這些功能設計的卡片消費體驗。所以這個產品目前只推出大約一個月左右。So yeah, the design of the entire app is basically built on USDe. Every single dollar that comes into the app is free to on-ramp and is automatically converted into USDe that's saving by default within the app, so you're always earning. Every time or every second that a dollar is sitting within the app. Also built out multi-currency functionality where you can on-ramp for free in other currencies, either into dollars or into savings asset in around five other currencies that sit outside of dollars. And then obviously have sort of the card spending experience that sits around that as well. So the product's only been out for around a month now.

4:39目前這個產品還處於測試階段，因為我們只針對一小部分使用者進行推廣。我想我們現在大概只有3%的候補名單用戶實際在使用這個產品。不過我們的想法是，在接下來的兩到三個月內，當我們對所有功能的安全性和運作狀況感到滿意時，就會期待能夠全面開放給大家使用。It's very much in sort of beta phase as we've been rolling it out to a small group of users. I think we've only got about 3% of the waitlist actually using the product right now. But the idea is over the next two to three months, when we feel comfortable with how everything's, you know, performing in a secure way, we're looking forward to opening it up fully.

4:57新型銀行的運作模式

4:57是的，正如 Guy 所說，加密新型銀行一般遵循的流程是，法幣或加密貨幣會被存入帳戶。這個帳戶接著會作為一個非託管的金庫，使用者可以用來購買其他資產、借貸、放款，或是執行你對 DeFi 產品或傳統金融銀行所期待的所有常見操作。然後，還有這些最後一哩的金融科技基礎設施整合，讓你可以把資金匯出，並接軌到更廣泛的經濟體系。Yeah, so as Guy said, the general flows that a crypto neobank kind of follows is that either fiat or crypto gets deposited into the account. That account then acts as this non-custodial vault that can be used to purchase other assets, to borrow, to lend, to—do all the normal things that you'd expect from a DeFi product or a TradFi bank. And then there's these last mile fintech rails integrations that allow you to then send money out and plug into the broader economy.

5:33我們現在已經擁有足夠完善的加密貨幣生態系，讓這些最後一哩的傳統金融基礎設施發展得相當成熟，並且持續不斷地變得越來越好，特別是在許多不同的地區。因此，你真的可以打造出這樣一個系統：法幣進來、法幣出去，而中間的所有流程都是無需許可、由 DeFi 驅動的。We now have enough of an ecosystem around crypto that these last mile TradFi rails are sufficiently well developed and continue to get better and better, especially across a lot of different regions, that you really can create this system where, you know, fiat comes in, fiat comes out, and everything in the middle is permissionless and powered by DeFi.

5:58我認為我們很自然會看到，首先，會有越來越多金融科技機構轉向這種模式，因為這樣做實在是更有效率。我會說，在很多方面，這種結構的運作效率高出一個數量級，而且它的監管負擔也低得多。因此，我認為我們會看到很多金融科技公司在內部營運上採用穩定幣，因為最終這是唯一能讓這一切運作的方法。但這並不代表你每次都必須去思考自己正在使用哪一種穩定幣。And I think what we'll see very naturally is first of all, more fintech institutions are going to be moving to this kind of model simply because it's just much more efficient. I would say in many ways it's an order of magnitude more efficient to operate this kind of structure and has just a much lower regulatory footprint. And so as a result, I think we're going to see a lot of fintechs adopting stablecoins for their internal operations, because ultimately that's the only way to actually make this work. And that doesn't mean that you're going to have to think about which stablecoin you're using at any given time.

6:36但這些東西會運作，你知道，某種程度上就像現在軟體在公司裡的運作方式一樣，它只是讓內部作業變得更加順暢和簡單，而使用者其實不需要特別去思考這些細節。But these things will work, you know, in many ways the way software works in companies today, where it just helps the internal operations be a lot smoother and easier without the user really needing to think much about it.

6:50穩定幣消費成長與市場潛力

6:50是的，正如你們在這張圖表上所看到的，我認為這是過去幾年裡這個領域最令人難以置信的成長故事之一。你們從2024年9月每月不到一億美元的交易量，成長到現在每月十二億美元。所以以年化來看，你們的支出接近一百五十億美元。這個數字至今每年都以超過100%的速度成長。我認為這張圖最讓我們感興趣的部分，就是去思考有哪些東西即使在熊市期間也持續成長，對吧？Yeah, so as you can see on the chart over here, I think this has been one of the most incredible growth stories in space in the last couple of years. You've grown from sub $100 million of volume per month in September '24. All the way up to $1.2 billion now per month. So on an annualized basis, you're looking at just under $15 billion of spend. That's been growing more than 100% year on year to date. I think the piece that interests us the most about this graph is kind of thinking about what are the things that have been growing even during a bear market, right?

7:25所以，加密貨幣領域裡的許多企業和產品，其實都只是跟著比特幣價格的漲跌而波動。而我認為，穩定幣的成長就是一個例子，這是一種在加密貨幣圈內，除了單純投機之外，真的找到產品市場契合（PMF）的產品。So a lot of the businesses and products within crypto are kind of just levered to Bitcoin price going up and down, and I think stablecoin growth is one example of, you know, a product that's found real PMF outside of just speculation within crypto.

7:38我認為這就是新的產品類別，正如你在那張圖表上看到的，無論比特幣價格或其他山寨幣價格發生什麼事，這個類別的走勢都是一路向上、往右側攀升。我覺得還有一點值得注意的是，這一切目前在全球實際的消費規模、以及傳統金融科技公司相比之下，仍然只是滄海一粟，甚至這個應用程式目前所擁有的使用者數量也是如此。And I think this is the new product category where, as you can see on that chart, it didn't really matter what was happening to Bitcoin prices or the prices of altcoins. This was just going straight up and to the right on the side. I think the other piece to just appreciate is that. This is just still a speck in the ocean relative to, like, actual spend in the world with normal fintechs, and even the user numbers that have been captured within this app right now.

8:02所以我認為，對我們來說最令人興奮的部分是，沒錯，現在已經有一些企業在這裡，並且打造了很棒的產品，吸引了大量的使用者基礎，但其實，這些產品真正可觸及的市場，是現在還沒有在鏈上操作的數億人口。不過，他們確實會發現，像這樣的支付科技在他們日常生活中非常有用。所以我認為，這就像穩定幣的成長曲線一樣，未來十年基本上只會持續向上，而且我們很高興能成為這個成長的一部分。And so I think the piece that's most exciting to us is that, yes, there are businesses that are here and have built amazing products and captured a huge user base, but really, like, the addressable market for these products is the hundreds of millions of people that aren't operating on-chain now. But do find, you know, spending technology like this useful day-to-day in their everyday lives. So I think that this is a graph like stablecoins that's basically just going to go up and to the right for the next 10 years, and excited to be part of that growth.

8:32這個市場機會真的超級大。舉例來說，像 Revolut、Chime、Nubank 這些 neobank，每年營收就有 3,000 億美元，是整個 DeFi、加密圈規模的 100 倍，而且這還只是銀行業的一個子分類。所以現在有機會做出真正有用、不是各種賭場變形的產品。Yeah, absolutely massive market opportunity. I mean, to put it into perspective, just neobanks, so... Revolut, Chime, Nubank, that whole category of players are doing about $300 billion a year in revenue. So, I mean, we're talking about 100 times larger than all of DeFi, all of crypto, just in that one category, which is a subset of, you know, of banking. So, I mean, the opportunity is just so much larger to build real products that are not, you know. Various, you know, incarnations of casinos.

9:05自有穩定幣的商業邏輯

9:05說到這裡，現在 EtherFi 用戶持有數億美元的穩定幣，像 USDC、USDT 都是很棒的產品。但這代表 EtherFi 和用戶每年要付出數百萬美元給 Tether 和 Circle，雖然很樂意支持朋友，但其實更合理的是把這些收入內部化，回饋給用戶、補貼產品、增加營收，也讓 EtherFi 的營運更順。這也是我們今天要宣布新穩定幣的原因。And so with that, we sort of, you know, teased it a bit. But, you know, today on EtherFi, users hold hundreds of millions of dollars of stablecoins and, you know, USDC, USDT, great products. But effectively what that means is EtherFi and these users are paying. Millions and millions of dollars to Tether and Circle, which is great. You know, we're happy to support our friends. But I think it just, it makes a lot more sense to internalize that revenue and use it to reward users, to subsidize parts of the product that we want to subsidize, to generate more revenue, and to just streamline operationally how EtherFi works. Which is why, you know, we're excited to be announcing this new stablecoin launch.

9:56我們也想要簡單帶過並指出，究竟有哪些非常具體的產品特性，是我們認為加密穩定幣真正能夠為這類應用帶來十倍更佳產品體驗的原因。我認為第一點，其實就是關於「天生就是網路原生」以及「一開始就具備全球性」這件事，這是這些產品在過去幾年能夠如此快速擴張的一個非常重要的關鍵。傳統金融科技公司，光是要開放一個新的地區或司法管轄區，通常就需要花上十八個月的時間來設立銀行帳戶、取得監管執照、建立法幣出入金管道，而這還只是你想服務的一百五十個國家中的其中一個。So we just want to also just run through and kind of point out, like, what are the very specific product features that we think crypto stablecoins actually enable a 10 times better product experience for these types of applications. So I think the first one is really just around. Being internet native and global by default on day one is a very important piece as to how these can scale as aggressively as they have in the last couple of years. So traditional fintechs' usual process to even open up one geography or one jurisdiction is 18 months of trying to set up bank accounts, get regulatory licenses, get fiat rails in place, and that's one country out of the 150 that you want to be serving.

10:36那大概還需要再花十二到十八個月來處理。我認為這裡真正的突破點在於，當你把穩定幣或應用程式內的餘額轉移到自我託管的穩定幣錢包時，你其實是在讓這些應用程式從第一天起就具備全球化的能力，因為自我託管的穩定幣持有行為，比起在法幣體系下擁有銀行帳戶中的使用者存款，受到的監管要少得多。That will just take another 12, 18 months to sort of get through. I think the real unlock here is that when you move in stablecoin or, like, balances within the application into self-custodial stablecoin wallets, you're really enabling these apps to be global by default on day one, because self-custodial stablecoin holdings are a much less regulated activity than owning customer deposits within a bank account in the fiat system.

11:01所以我認為這是一個非常重要的觀點，能讓產品體驗對使用者來說變得更加優秀。我覺得另一個重點就是擺脫銀行營業時間，讓你可以 24 小時全年無休、幾乎零成本地即時結算。我想我們大家都曾經體會過，在一般銀行軟體裡進行跨境交易時的痛苦，而能夠把所有那些層層的手續費和中介機構全部省略，直接在區塊鏈上結算，這顯然和傳統銀行系統相比，完全是天壤之別的體驗。So I think that's a very important point that just makes the product experience that much better for users. I think the other piece is just doing away with banking hours, where you just settle 24/7 instantly at almost zero cost. I think we've all felt the pain of what it actually feels like to transact cross-border in normal banking applications, and being able to collapse all of those sort of layers of fees and intermediaries to just settle on the blockchain is obviously just a complete night and day experience versus the normal banking system.

11:28然後我認為這裡有一個很重要的部分，這顯然跟我們現在討論的主題息息相關，就是現有銀行和金融科技應用程式的商業模式中，有很大一部分是透過對帳戶內存款的使用者支付過低的利息，然後從應用程式內的資金餘額中提取利潤。因此，我相信你們很多人都習慣於只拿到 25 個基點、50 個基點的利息，也就是你放在銀行帳戶裡的存款利率。而在這裡，當你可以幾乎零成本地接入穩定幣，或是你在 DeFi 中看到的金融基礎工具時，你其實就能為產品內的使用者創造更好的使用體驗，並且帶來更高的儲蓄利率。And then I think the big piece here, which is obviously relevant to what we're talking about now, is that a huge piece of the business model for these existing banks and fintech applications is underpaying users on the deposits that are sitting within the account and then extracting a margin on the balances that are within the app. So I'm sure many of you are used to getting the 25 basis points, 50 basis points. The deposits that you leave within your bank account. Here, when you can plug into stablecoins or into the financial primitives that you see within DeFi at almost zero cost, you're really unlocking a better user experience with the savings rate that you can generate for users within the product.

12:05所以每當我們在思考，是否應該花時間在新產品或公司內部的新方向時，我們總是會問自己一個問題：你是否真的因為在區塊鏈上打造這個產品，而不是在Coinbase上，創造出一個好上十倍的產品？我認為，這就是少數幾個你可以指著說：「這真的就是好上十倍的體驗」的例子之一，因為你能夠在這裡做螢幕上所有的事情，而不是只能選擇市場上現有的選項。So whenever we're thinking about, should we be spending time on the new product or new direction within the company, we always try to ask ourselves the question. Are you creating a 10 times better product by actually building this on blockchain instead of Coinbase? And I think this is one of the very few examples that you can point towards and say it really is just a 10 times better experience, being able to do all the things that are on the screen here versus the existing options in the market.

12:32eUSD：自家穩定幣全面整合

12:32我們 EtherFi 的目標，就是把這個新穩定幣整合到 EtherFi 的每個環節，讓用戶根本不用意識到自己用的是穩定幣。法幣進來自動轉成這些穩定美元，享受 EtherFi 的所有獎勵，體驗更順暢、成本更低。今天正式介紹 eUSD，這是由 Ethena 技術驅動的 EtherFi 穩定幣。Great. So the intent for us is to, for EtherFi, is to integrate this new stablecoin into every aspect of EtherFi and to really make it transparent so that the user doesn't need to think about the fact that they're using a stablecoin, that their fiat comes in, it gets converted into these stable dollars, they get all the rewards that they expect with EtherFi and more now. Across these various products, and it's just a totally seamless and much lower cost experience. And so with that, we're introducing eUSD, the EtherFi stablecoin powered by Ethena.

13:07好的，讓我簡單介紹一下我們目前正在經營的白標業務背景。整個 Ethena 平台上，目前大約有五十五億美元的穩定幣餘額。我們實際上已經向使用者支付了將近八億美元的總利息收入。從來沒有讓任何人的資金損失過一個基點。你知道，儘管兩年前發生了 Bybit 被駭事件、10-10 事件，以及今年的 Arbit 被駭事件，我認為過去三年我們經歷了很多，但從來沒有損失過一美元或一個基點的資金。總體來說，合約累計處理了超過三百億美元的鑄造和贖回流動，期間完全沒有任何停機。Yeah, so some background on the white label business that we're running at the moment. Across the whole of Ethena, there's around five and a half billion dollars of stablecoin balances. We've paid out around just under $800 million actually now in gross interest revenue generated that have been paid out to users. Never lost a single basis point of people's money. You know, despite the Bybit hack that we saw two years ago, the 10-10 incident, the Arbit hack this year, I think we've been through quite a lot in the last three years and have never lost a dollar or a basis point of money. And in total have had just over $30 billion of mint and redemption flows flow through the contracts with zero downtime on that.

13:49非常興奮能夠和EthFi團隊一起合作這個專案。我們有幾個精選的Y級合作夥伴，已經在螢幕上展示給大家看了。我認為我們的做法是，我們並不是真的想和這個領域裡的每一個人合作。我們每年只想挑選三到四個合作夥伴，然後全力投入，而我們確實也是這麼做的。這也代表我們看好他們未來能有多大的成長空間，以及他們即將迎來的發展。我認為Ethena絕對是其中之一，他們是目前所有鏈上應用中，擁有最大美元資產餘額的應用之一。所以，非常期待能和他們一起把這個產品推向市場。So super excited to be working with the EthFi team on this. Have a few selective Y-level partners that we've put up on the screen there. I think the approach that we have here is that we don't really want to work with everyone in the space. We want to pick three to four partners a year that we really lean into, and we have. which is bullish on how big they can get and the growth that's ahead of them. And I think Ethena, you know, squarely sits within there with one of the apps with the largest dollar balances that exist on any chain in any application that you see on-chain now. So, yeah, very excited to be working with them on bringing this to market.

14:25再幫 Ethena 推薦一下，我們也評估過很多白標穩定幣選項，甚至考慮過自己做，最後發現 Ethena 完全是最好的選擇，基礎建設和紀錄都最強。真的很期待合作。Yeah, maybe to further shill Ethena, we did do an evaluation across a bunch of different options of—white-label stablecoins or rolling our own. And honestly, in the end, it was a real no-brainer. I think Ethena is just the best option. They've got the best infrastructure, the best track record. So, yeah, couldn't be more excited to be working with them.

14:45新趨勢：垂直整合與自有穩定幣

14:45是的，在這張投影片上我沒有再補充太多內容，但我想現在強調的一點是，我認為Mike現在在EtherFi所做的事情，真正去「擁有」使用者的資產餘額、擁有整個堆疊中的穩定幣，這將會成為我們接下來會看到的其他新型數位銀行所發展的一個趨勢。我認為這些產品的最終狀態，就是你必須垂直整合堆疊中不同部分的所有權，這樣你才能以更有意義的方式掌控自己營收產生的未來。Yeah, on this slide I'm short adding a ton more to what we've said, but I think just highlighting the point now that I think. What Mike's doing with EtherFi now to really, like, own the user balances, own the stablecoins within the entire stack is going to be a trend that we start to see evolve with other neobanks that are out in the market right now. I think the end state of these products is that you need to vertically integrate the ownership of different pieces of the stack so you can control the destiny of your own revenue generation in a more meaningful way.

15:15我認為 EtherFi 團隊現在正引領這個潮流，目前市場上還沒有太多人在自己的應用程式內部自行打造穩定幣。但我認為，隨著你們昨天將這個產品推向市場，這將會成為一個你會開始看到被積極跟進的趨勢。And I think the EtherFi team are pioneering this now, when not many others in the market have sort of built their own stablecoins in-house within their own app. But I think this is going to be a trend that you're going to start seeing pretty aggressively followed as you've brought this to market yesterday.

15:29是啊，也許唯一要補充的就是，你知道，再強調一次，我認為最終每個人都必須這麼做，因為如果你想要有一個好的產品，幾乎沒有其他選擇。我的意思是，你不能允許這些由穩定幣產生的所有收益在系統外、在你的產品之外流失。所以，為了打造一個真正有競爭力、低成本、高回報的產品給使用者，你基本上非得這麼做不可。而現在，Ethena 和 EtherFi 是唯一有足夠聰明在做這件事的團隊，所以我認為這對這兩個產品來說都是好兆頭。Yeah, maybe the only thing to add is that, you know, to reiterate, I think eventually everyone's going to have to do this, because if you want to have a good product, there's almost no other option. I mean, you can't allow this sort of leakage of all this revenue that's generated off stables outside of the system, outside of your product. So to create a truly competitive, low-cost, high-reward product for users, you pretty much have to do this. And right now, Ethena and EtherFi are the only ones that are, you know, are smart enough to be doing it, and so I think that bodes well for both products.

16:06用戶規模與未來展望

16:06是的，我覺得我們剛才有稍微提到這個，但我想總結一下整個討論，這是少數幾個當人們談到如何把一億、十億使用者帶進加密貨幣時，我會有點尷尬的產品之一。我認為我們這幾年在這個領域努力建構的經驗告訴我們，如果假設每個人都會來鏈上操作、設置MetaMask錢包，並做我們這幾年做過的所有事情，這其實是一個錯誤的假設，你必須開始規劃一個這種情況不會發生的世界。Yeah, and I think we touched on this earlier, but I think just to summarize the whole talk, this is one of the few products I kind of cringe a little bit when people talk about how do we bring on the, you know, 100 million, billion users into crypto. I think the learning that we've had in the last few years trying to build in this space is that assuming everyone's going to come operate on-chain, set up a MetaMask wallet and do all the things that we've done in the last few years, I think is the incorrect assumption, and you need to start planning for a world where that does not happen.

16:37因此，從我們的觀點來看，我認為你真的需要從「打造人們已經在使用、且他們已經習慣的形式」這個立場開始，然後思考你能如何做出邊際上的改進。在產品方面，要善用所有在 DeFi 領域內發生的事情。所以從我們的角度來說，這是我們認為極少數真正有機會達到那種規模的產品之一，而現在即使是在最大的應用程式上，也只有幾十萬名使用者，這個故事還非常早期。因此，我對市場機會的未來發展感到非常興奮，也很明顯地祝福你們和歐盟一起打造這個產品時一切順利。And so, from our perspective, I think you really need to start on the position of build the apps that people already use in a form factor that they're comfortable with already, and see how you can make marginal improvements. On the product, leveraging all the stuff that goes on within DeFi. So from our perspective, this is one of the very few products we think can actually reach that scale, and we're still very early in that story now with a few hundred thousand users, even at the biggest applications. So excited about where the market opportunity is going to go, and obviously wishing the best of luck building this with EU.

17:09結語：歡迎體驗新產品

17:09好，今天就到這裡。謝謝大家，希望大家都能試用我們的產品，享受全新體驗！Great. All right, that's it. Thanks, everyone. I hope everyone gets to try out the product and, you know, have a good experience with it.

17:22太棒了，謝謝大家！Awesome. Thanks, guys.