新發行人與資產配置機構：DeFi 如何擴大市場

0:00DeFi 新資本時代：擴大餅的關鍵

0:00過去 DeFi 的成長，大多是靠同一批加密原生資本在生態系內部循環。今天我們的討論重點，就是如何真正「擴大餅」，把全新使用者和資本帶進鏈上金融市場。我邀請到四位非常適合談這個主題的嘉賓，一起來深入聊聊。So, for much of its history, DeFi has grown as a result of the same crypto-native capital being recycled around the ecosystem. Our panel discussion today is going to be about growing the pie, so to speak, and introducing new customers, new capital into on-chain financial markets. And I have four people here today with me who are very uniquely positioned to talk about this.

0:33先來介紹一下來賓。左手邊是 Luke Truitt，他是 Loopscale 的共同創辦人，現在也是合併後 Orca 和 Loopscale 新公司 Formation 的執行長。等一下我們會聊聊這個合併案。接著是 SBI Holdings 的總經理 Kefei Lin，他負責 SBI 的鏈上業務，包括 Solana Global 和日圓穩定幣 JPYSC。Kefei 本身是工程師背景，橫跨傳統金融和 DeFi 系統開發。So let me introduce them. To my left, we have Luke Truitt. He's the co-founder of Loopscale and now also the CEO of the newly combined Orca and Loopscale business called Formation. We'll talk about that merger in just a minute. We have Kefei Lin, the general manager at SBI Holdings, where he leads SBI's on-chain initiatives, including SBI's Solana Global and the JPYSC yen stablecoin. He's an engineer by background. He's built financial systems across both traditional finance and DeFi.

1:05還有 Joseph Chee，他是納斯達克上市的 Solana Company 董事長兼執行長，負責在亞洲發展驗證者、質押和信託業務。進入加密圈前，他在瑞銀（UBS）待了 17 年，領導亞洲投資銀行和資本市場，經手超過 180 檔 IPO。最後是 Heyryung Choi，她是新韓資產管理的數位長，主導機構級數位資產和資產代幣化業務。她曾在瑞信（Credit Suisse）服務 18 年，負責韓國股本資本市場，最近則是 Kakao 集團 CFO。And we have Joseph Chee. He's chairman and CEO of the Nasdaq-listed Solana company. Building validators, staking, and trust businesses across Asia. Before crypto, he spent 17 years at UBS, leading investment banking and global capital markets for Asia, running more than 180 IPOs. And last but not least, we have Heyryung Choi. She's the Chief Digital Officer at Shinhan Asset Management, where she leads its institutional digital asset and tokenization work. She spent 18 years at Credit Suisse, leading equity capital markets in Korea, and most recently served as Group CFO of Kakao.

1:41今天這組來賓陣容很強大，讓我非常期待這場討論。Luke，我想先從你開始，因為你們今天剛發布一個大新聞，就是 Loopscale 和 Solana 上知名 DEX Orca 合併，成立新公司 Formation。為什麼選在這個時機？這兩家公司合併後，能做到什麼以前做不到的事？I have a great group here, so excited to get into it. And Luke, I'm going to start with you because I want you to talk a little bit about the news that you guys broke today. It's a merger between your company, Loopscale, and the decentralized exchange Orca, merging to form a new company called Formation. Why now? And what does bringing these two companies together accomplish that you guys couldn't do on your own before?

2:07Formation 誕生：合併的戰略意義

2:07其實 Loopscale 和 Orca 服務的客群很像，只是切入點不同。Loopscale 偏重資產發行、分銷、信貸，Orca 則是 Solana 上最早的交易平台之一。過去一年，隨著監管環境改善，我們看到同樣類型的客戶陸續進場。要把資產從發行一路帶到分銷，最重要的是有一個值得信賴的單一對口，能處理整個流程、懂市場、也能協助解決結構設計的各種問題，還要能全球服務、前瞻思考。Yeah, so Loopscale and Orca sort of serve a lot of the same customers, just different sides of the coin. So Loopscale is very distribution, vaults, credit-focused. Orca has been a trading platform, one of the first on Solana, and we— Generally speaking, I've seen a lot of the same types of customers coming into the space over the last year or so as the regulatory landscape has improved a bit. And ultimately, what's important to kind of taking assets from issuance to distribution is both having a single counterparty that you could trust to kind of handle each step in the stack. That understands the market and that ultimately is able to work with you on all the structuring problems that occur when doing this, but just as importantly, is able to kind of service customers globally and think about things in a more forward-looking way.

2:58我們很期待把這兩個團隊結合，跟全球各地的夥伴合作，像今天台上的大家一起，把新資產、新資本帶進這個領域，集中在一個平台上。合併消息推出後，市場反應很熱烈，大家都很興奮。我們籌備這件事很久，終於能公開，接下來可以更積極推進合作與產品落地。So we're excited about the opportunity to bring those two things together and work with folks kind of all over the world, folks on this panel, to, you know, bring new assets in the space, new capital in the space, and kind of do that in one spot. And how has the reception been to the merger so far? It's great. It's a lot of fun. I mean, it's something we've been working on for a long time and, yeah, excited to finally have it out there so we can, you know, get selling, get working with on the stuff a little bit more.

3:28你剛提到台上有合作夥伴。Formation 的目標就是把新型資產和資本帶進 DeFi，真正擴大這個市場。你們預計會先把哪些資產或產品帶上鏈？有沒有特別期待的方向？And you mentioned that you have some of your partners here on stage with you. Your goal as the new company of formation is to bring new kinds of assets and capital into DeFi and really grow the pie. What kind of assets or products do you expect to bring on-chain first? And maybe you can kind of speak to some of the things that you're most excited about.

3:43鏈上資產新時代：跨界與創新

3:43從大方向來看，全球正從「重軟體、輕資本」的產業，轉向「重資本」的領域，像 AI 算力、機器人、製造、國防等。這些產業通常是小公司、少員工，但需要大量資本才能擴張。資產代幣化和 DeFi 提供一種低成本的方式，讓資產從構想到投資全流程都能鏈上化。我們對這些前沿產品很有興趣，台上三位嘉賓也各自有不同切入點，不只是全新小型資產，還有跨法域轉移、原本難以觸及的資產，例如高收益企業信貸、新型電信資料資產、創新型代幣化證券等。這裡有很多值得討論的創新。Yeah, well, I think bigger picture, the world is undergoing a big transformation from very software-heavy, capital-light businesses. Very capital-intensive businesses, whether that's AI compute spend, that might be robotics, manufacturing, defense. All of these things are driven by smaller companies with few employees that need a lot of capital in order to scale. And tokenization, DeFi in general, is a very low-cost way to kind of take assets from conception all the way through the life cycle to investment. And so we're really excited about some of these frontier products and all three of these guys on stage, you know, have different kind of approaches to bring interesting assets, not just brand new small assets, but assets that might transfer from one jurisdiction to another that wouldn't have been accessible otherwise. And so that's, you know, high-yield corporate credit, interesting novel, you know, telecom data originations, and, you know, interesting tokenized securities with the new innovation exemption. So lots of stuff that we can cover. Lots of exciting things.

4:41Heyryung，Shinhan 最近和 Orca 簽了合作備忘錄，要一起開發資產代幣化產品。你們在挑選 DeFi 合作夥伴時，最重視哪些條件？什麼才是你們心目中理想的 DeFi 夥伴？Harry, Shineng signed an MOU with Orca to help develop tokenized products. When you're choosing DeFi partners and you're looking who to work with, what are you looking for specifically, and kind of what matters most in a DeFi partner?

4:55我們是資產管理公司，負責管理底層資產。在金融市場裡，我們希望找到能以合規方式，把產品帶進 DeFi 的合作夥伴。選擇 Orca 有三個原因：第一，團隊要有五年以上的永續經營能力，無論是技術、洞察還是治理。第二，要懂得金融機構的風控需求，能把這些控管落實在 DeFi。第三，認同監管不是阻礙，而是設計產品時的合作夥伴。這三點是我們挑選 DeFi 夥伴的關鍵。So let me start to figure out who we are. We are asset management. So we are managing the underlying assets. In the financial market, we try to find a partner who can introduce a product in DeFi based on the regulatory way. So this is our look. And when we choose the Orca as our partner, we look at the three points. Number one, we try to find a team who can be sustainable for the next five years in terms of technology, in terms of insight, in terms of governance. And second, who have the right control? Who can understand the financial institutions' control need to be applied in DeFi? And lastly, who is a partner who think that regulation is not the obstacle? Regulation, regulator need to be our partner when we design our product. So this is the three key when we consider our partner in DeFi.

5:49資產代幣化產品與韓國市場機會

5:49你們討論過要發行像是代幣化貨幣市場基金、半導體 ETF 等產品，為什麼從這些產品切入？你們預期誰會是主要買家？And you've talked about discussing launching products such as tokenized money market funds, I believe a semiconductor ETF as well. Why start with those products, and who do you expect to be buying them?

6:04很多投資人進出韓國市場時會遇到資金流動障礙，無論是資金進來還是出去。像外幣申報、時區差異等都造成摩擦，例如紐約市場開盤時我們這邊休市。透過這些產品，我們能把韓國優質資產推向全球市場，讓全球投資人認識韓國股票和資產價值，同時也讓韓國資金能更順利流向國際。I think a lot of investors find a lot of obstacles to inflow in Korea and also outflow to Korea. So I think we need to declare the foreign currency and also market is friction 24 hours. You know, when the New York market is open, we are closed. I think that through this product, we can introduce our product in the global market. As you can see, Korea equities and Korea good quality asset is need to underestimate in the global market because of that kind of friction. I think that can help us to introduce our product globally. At the same time, Kria liquidity, Kria capital can be open to the market in the global market.

6:46機構參與 DeFi 的風險與挑戰

6:46Joseph，你在公司估值和交易領域有超過 20 年經驗。你現在看 DeFi 協議時，決定是否投入資本，什麼因素會讓你立刻打退堂鼓？有沒有什麼讓你會猶豫的點？Joseph, you've spent more than two decades valuing companies and transactions. When you look at a DeFi protocol today, and considering where to allocate capital into DeFi, what would make you immediately walk away from a protocol or a counterparty? Is there anything that would make you take a pause and step back?

7:06我也想從資本配置者的角度來談。最重要的其實是對手方風險。你要找的是有歷史、有實績、團隊你見過、值得信賴的對象。底層資產最好是你熟悉、在傳統金融世界也有接觸過的東西。平台本身要有可信團隊，懂行、經驗豐富。當然，智慧合約審計等技術細節也很重要，但這些通常都已經是協議標配。最終，對手方如果不對，我根本不會考慮。底層資產也要夠有趣、有潛力帶來比傳統更好的報酬。Well, I also talk about what she would look at from her perspective. I guess as someone's allocate capital and trying to generate return, I think the most important thing is probably counterparty risk. Yeah. And I guess I'm sort of answering a question from the flip side, like what would I look at, right? I guess it has to be someone that's been around for a long time, established, and then you met the team. I think not, because I think you have two sides of it. The underlying, hopefully something you already recognize, and then something in the TradFi world, you know, coming from Shanghai, you know why it is. Something you want to get exposure to. And then I guess the platform is to bring it to you. You want to make sure that it's a credible team, someone you could work with, they're smart, they know what they're doing, been around. And obviously, I guess the smart contract audit and everything, that sort of comes to it. You don't have to worry about that. I think that's already being done as part of the protocol. But I think to me, it's really the counterparty. It is the wrong counterparty, then obviously. I would not even consider it. And underlying has to be, you know, something interesting, exciting that would bring good return to us versus the normal stuff we're doing.

8:20那你對 Formation 有什麼期待？有沒有特別想推的產品？老實說我還沒細看產品細節，但我相信 Luke 團隊會帶來很多有趣的東西，現在還在早期階段。And what are you bringing to the new formation company? Any products that you're excited about? To be honest, I haven't spent time going through the products. I'm sure with Luke's team. But, you know, these guys will come up with, you know, many exciting products. Yeah, early days. I'm looking for scoop here. Come on.

8:42亞洲機構如何選擇 DeFi 夥伴

8:42Kefei，當日本發行人想觸及全球鏈上投資人時，必須依賴自己沒建、沒掌控的基礎設施。SBI 要怎樣才會信任一個 DeFi 夥伴？Cafe, when a Japanese owner or issuer, pardon me, wants to reach global on-chain investors, it has to rely on infrastructure that it didn't build and it doesn't control. What does SBI need to see before it can trust a DeFi partner?

9:00我很認同 Joseph 的觀點。鏈上對手方風險評估方式已經根本改變。傳統上我們會查對方資產負債表，現在則是審查智慧合約和鏈上基礎設施。我們主要看三點：一、協議要有經得起多次市場崩盤的存活紀錄，能安全守住數十億美元資產。二、資金必須隔離，非託管結構，合作夥伴只能設定風險參數，卻無法動用資金，投資人永遠有密碼學上的存取權。三、極度重視營運安全，最近很多事件都是私鑰被盜而非合約漏洞，所以我們要找對營運安全有執念的夥伴。Yeah, I think echo to Joseph's point, right? I think there is a fundamental shift in how we evaluate counterparty risk on-chain, right? Traditionally, you audit their balance sheet, and, but like right now we audit their smart contract and their, you know, on-chain infrastructure. I think generally we're looking for, number one, track record. So the protocols have to survive multiple market crashes and then secure billions of dollars of user assets without failure. Yeah, so, I mean, OKA is a good partner. And then second, I think we're looking for a segregation of funds, non-custodial structure in a way that our partners can curate the risk parameters option, but they can never touch the funds. And user or investor always have the right, the cryptographical right to access. So that's number two. Number three, I think we're looking for an obsession with operational security. I think that's very important because recent instance that it's all about compromised private keys rather than actual smart contract bug. So we're looking for partners who operate their business with Transparency and, you know, just have an obsession with operational security.

10:37那你覺得「信任程式碼」這件事，現在使用者和投資人真的能接受嗎？大家會不會還是比較信任銀行等中心化機構？At what point is trusting code, you know, enough? Do you feel like there is more an openness, a willingness for customers, investors to trust code as opposed to trusting a— You know, centralized third party, like a bank or something like that. You know, do you feel like it's more, it's opening up to people understanding that, you know, code might be sort of the north star when it comes to, you know, your finances, your money?

11:07身為智慧合約工程師，我當然希望有那種理想世界，但現實是大家還是信任品牌、金融科技平台、銀行。與其讓使用者直接信任底層程式碼，更好的做法是讓經過實戰驗證的程式碼，成為金融科技和銀行的隱形後端，讓使用者間接信任這些基礎設施。Well, as a smart contract engineer, I would love to have that ideal world, but I think today people's trusts are with the brands like fintech platforms, banks, right? And I think instead of them trusting the underlying code directly, the better scenario is those battle-tested code and trusted code slowly becoming an invisible backend for the fintechs and banks. Right, so the users is trusting that indirectly.

11:41韓國機構資本進軍 DeFi 的契機

11:41Heyryung，韓國的散戶加密市場非常活躍，但機構進場速度相對慢。美國通常是機構先行、監管再跟上，韓國則相反。不過現在機構也開始進場。當韓國機構資本能大規模參與全球鏈上市場時，會帶來什麼變化？誰會受益？Hey Ron, Korea has one of the most active retail crypto, you know, landscapes in the world, arguably. But institutions, I think, are a little bit slower to come to market. In America, it's a little bit different. Usually the institutions lead, then the regulations come in later. It seems to be the opposite in Korea, but institutions are coming in. Last week at KBW, and that was a key theme at KBW. But what happens to global on-chain markets when Korean institutional capital can participate at scale? And kind of who benefits? Is it the Korean institutions, or is it global DeFi platforms?

12:19我認為韓國資本的流動要看雙向，不只是資金流出，也要看資金流入。韓國散戶不只在加密市場，在美股也是最大股東之一。當監管放寬，韓國機構會以合規、保守的方式逐步進入鏈上市場，展現大規模流動性。同時，全球市場過去低估了韓國資金流入的潛力，很多國外資本也想把韓國優質股票、半導體、國防、K-beauty 等資產帶上鏈。只要監管到位、信任建立，雙向資本流動都會大爆發。I think in terms of the capital direction in the Korea market, we need to see the both direction. Not the outflow to Korea capital, but also inflow to the Korea market too. So Korean retailers haven't been proven their ability not only in the crypto market, but in the stock market. Korean retailers have been the biggest shareholder in the U.S. market too. So I think when the, you know, regulation is released, Korean institutions will gradually move to their own chain. market with a regulatory way, in a very conservative way, but I think they will prove their capability with big liquidity. At the same time, I think the global market has tended to underestimate the Korea inbound flow because we haven't seen a lot of demand from the DeFi protocols and also capital in the outside of Korea. They want to put the Korea good equity like DEM names or memory names or chipmaker names, defense names, K-beauty names in the own chain. So I think both of the direction should be booming once the regulation is ready and the institutions have confirmed the trust about the own chain.

13:31你認為韓國機構參與鏈上市場的最大指標會是什麼？What would be the biggest sign to you that institutional participation in Korea is taking off, maybe in the same way that it has in the U.S.?

13:40我們預計明年二月會有新法案上路，這會成為機構參與的另一個觸發點。Yes, we are expecting to have a new legislation we adopt from the next February. So we think that kind of another, you know, trigger point that institutions will participate in.

13:56日本家庭資金與 DeFi 的連結

13:56日本家庭有大量存款，放在銀行利息很低。你覺得資產代幣化能不能讓這些資金變得更有生產力？還是監管單位會希望資金繼續留在現有體系？Japanese households hold enormous savings and deposits that earn very little, kind of comparative to us with banks, I think. Is tokenization the thing that could finally move some of that money into being more productive, or do you think regulators will want to keep it kind of where it is?

14:15說實話，有多少日本家庭真的在乎資產代幣化？甚至可能連這個概念都沒聽過。我認為光靠代幣化本身不會讓資金移動，真正能改變的是 DeFi 新基礎設施成為金融科技和銀行的引擎。使用者其實在意的是更高收益和風險可控的產品。所以，與其說代幣化本身會改變資金流向，不如說是 DeFi 引擎嵌入金融平台後才會帶來改變。Well, let's be honest, like how many Japanese households... care about tokenization, or don't even know about this concept, right? I think tokenization itself is probably not going to move the money. What's going to move the money is, like I mentioned, this new rails, DeFi rails becoming an EO engine, a backend for the fintechs, for the banks, so that. You know, users generally, they're looking for more yield and more risk, you know, managed, properly managed yield. So, yeah, tokenization itself probably won't change that, but plugging the DeFi engine into fintech platforms will change that.

15:11全球資本流動與監管挑戰

15:11Luke，現在我們在新加坡，你上週也在韓國。歷史上資本多從亞洲流向美國市場。那 Orca 和 Loopscale（現在是 Formation）的使用者和資產分布如何？你怎麼看 2026 年資本在亞洲和美國之間的流動？Luke, we're here in Singapore, obviously. You were in Korea last week, I believe, too. So capital has historically flowed from Asia into U.S. markets. Where are Orca and Loopscale's assets and your users today, I guess formations, users and customers today? And what can you tell us about how capital is actually moving between Asia and the U.S. in 2026?

15:37Formation 的使用者非常全球化，亞太、拉美、北美、南美、歐洲都有。主要看到的現象是，大家都想投資自己市場以外、原本不容易取得的資產。亞太使用者可能想要美元計價的收益型產品，像信貸基金、再保險基金等；美國使用者則想買像 SK Hynix 兩倍槓桿 ETF 這類亞洲資產。這種跨法域資本流動，重點其實不是加密，而是資產代幣化。美國人買國債很方便，所以我們平台上美國使用者買國債產品的比例不高。跨境資本流動是雙向的。Yeah, I mean, yeah. So Formation users are very global. We got folks in, obviously, APAC, LATAM, North America, South America, a bit in Europe as well. I think, like, the main thing that we see, though, is, like, there's a bit of a draw for folks who are— Able to invest in assets that are maybe not as available in the market that they're familiar with. So for APAC, that might be dollar-denominated products, yield products, letting them get exposure to, you know, credit funds or reinsurance funds that they wouldn't have had access to otherwise. And vice versa, in the United States, having access to SK Hynix 2x levered ETF or whatever it may be is something that It has driven a lot of the cross flows that are not crypto-focused, that are more of this tokenization piece. I think getting access to a treasury bill product as an American is fairly easy. So you don't see a lot of American users buying treasury bill products on our platform. But kind of, you know, thinking about it cross-jurisdiction is both directional flows.

16:39想請你談談監管環境，這是美國和全球企業都很關心的議題。美國的 CLARITY Act 幾週前沒通過，代表監管機關會主導規則制定。這對 Formation 的願景有什麼影響？有什麼原本希望法案通過才能做的事，現在變成監管主導後就做不到了嗎？Ask you about the regulatory landscape, because that is top of mind for a lot of companies in the United States and, you know, abroad right now as well. The Clarity Act obviously did not pass the U.S. Senate a couple weeks back, so it means the regulators are going to take the lead on writing rules. How much of that vision can you execute, I guess the vision that you had for formation? And maybe the hopes that Clarity would have passed, and now it's not going to. Is there anything that you can't do under the new sort of regulator-led format that Clarity would have given you clarity on, for lack of a better word?

17:11我們本來就做非託管軟體，會遵守各地監管規定。美國不同政府就像兩個國家，跟處理美國和歐洲一樣，我們會彈性調整。最大挑戰是，跟需要花很久決策的機構合作時，沒有明確監管方向會讓大家猶豫，甚至可能要拆掉已經投入大量資源的東西。對我們來說，執行層面還是能做想做的事，只是可能會拖更久，或必須換合作夥伴。我們很希望監管能明朗，讓我們能負責任地推動創新，但現在只能見招拆招。Yeah. Well, at the end of the day, we build non-custodial software. We follow, you know, regulation in every jurisdiction, whatever it may look like. And thinking about the U.S. and different administrations is just— Effectively two different countries is, you know, the same thing as dealing with the United States versus Europe. And so we're able to adapt to that. I think the bigger issue is thinking about how the deals that we have to make with, you know, folks who have to take a little bit longer to make decisions is something that is very much hindered by not having a clear view on where the market will sit, whether or not some of these folks will have to unwind big things that they've spent a lot of time and money on and— Ultimately, for us, I think, you know, executionally, we'll still be able to do everything that we want to do, but it may take a lot longer and it may end up being with different partners than we'd like it. So I think we're very hopeful that something will change and that, you know, all the stuff that we're spending time on is exciting enough to the folks in D.C. and around the world that they're willing to kind of take the bet on us, you know, doing this responsibly and Codifying that, but for now, you know, we'll just deal with whatever they throw at us.

18:16美國與亞洲監管模式的比較

18:16Joseph，亞太地區現在怎麼看美國？是把美國當作監管典範，還是覺得美國已經落後？Joseph, how is the APAC region looking to the U.S.? Is it looking to the U.S. as sort of a model for regulation, or does it look to the U.S. as kind of a laggard at this point?

18:29我有點偏頗，雖然來自亞洲，但大學畢業後前 12 年都在美國。每當有新科技或突破，美國都是最適合的土壤，因為政府、監管和文化都比較開放。亞洲像香港、新加坡、日本、韓國，監管模式都很像中國，總是兩步進一退，直到美國這個「大哥」突破後，大家才會跟進。現在正是這種狀態。亞洲監管常常只做到一半，反而更複雜。我一直跟智庫和政府說，要嘛就全力做，要嘛就不要做，千萬不要做半套，否則只會更亂。I'm a bit biased. Even though I came from this region, but I sort of spent the first 12 years after college. In the U.S. And then if you look at, to me, for every new technology, only new breakthroughs, U.S. is sort of like the right soil for all these things because I think the government, the regulators, it's just the culture. Asia, I mean, you know, I could, you know, speak freely, I guess. If you look at Hong Kong, Singapore, you know, Japan, Korea. All the regulations are pretty much the same in the Chinese way. You take two steps forward, one step back. That's always how they work. Until, you know, the big brother, like, you know, the U.S., all of a sudden, you know, like being this trailblazer and break through everything, then like, okay, we got to go and follow this. I think that's happening in the moment. I think, you know, it's tricky. I don't have to say more. The most important, I guess the biggest issue with Asian regulations is that they would approve some regulation sort of halfway and not quite there, and then. To us, it's like either you get that or you don't, right? And I'm sort of hoping that, you know, whether it's a Leshko or someone, you know, the right organization will revise that to a level where it's workable. Because the spirit of blockchain, DeFi, it has to be upheld, otherwise it doesn't work, right? I think that's, I say that all the time to all the different think tanks and all the governments, like. Either you do it or you don't, right? Just don't do it halfway. There's no point. It just makes it even more complicated. Yeah.

20:05Heyryung，你有什麼補充嗎？Heyerong, anything to add on that?

20:09我也同意。美國如果先走，亞洲才會跟進。但美國政策兩年就能大轉彎，亞洲像香港、新加坡、韓國、日本，則需要共識，一旦動起來就不太會變。美國訂前沿規則，亞洲則是補位，這些規則會成為基礎。Yes, I think the same. Because previously I found the fact that if the U.S. go first, Asia to go to follow. But the thing is, in U.S., when the policy change in two years, it's easy to back to two years back. But in Asia, Hong Kong, Singapore, Korea, and Japan have need to have the same consensus to move on. And it is not really change a lot, even though we are slow. When we are moving, it's not changed. So I think the U.S. set the frontier rules, but Asia put the behind, the backup. The rule can be the fundamental.

21:27監管不確定下的創新與投資策略

21:27Kefei，你會願意投資美國公司嗎？如果美國監管框架可能兩年就被新政府推翻，這樣的環境你會放心嗎？Kevin, do you feel comfortable working or investing in a company, you know, in the United States that is working on a regulatory framework that might not be, you know, super durable or sustainable and could be rolled back by an administration in two years?

21:41目前我們還是缺乏絕對明確的監管，雖然法案沒過，但我覺得這只是小阻礙，不是死路。美國還是很支持創新，有創新豁免等機制。SBI 今年還加碼投資美國市場，相關新聞也有報導，所以我們對美國還是很看好。Well, I think... Yeah, we're still lacking absolute clarity right now. Unfortunately, it didn't pass, but I see it as like a speed hump rather than a roadblock. We're still in a very pro-innovation environment. There's an innovation exemption and things like that. So SBI ourselves, we are sort of doubling down our investments in U.S. Actually, this year there were a couple of headlines. So yeah, still very bullish in the market. That's good.

22:12Luke，你怎麼看這種「兩年窗口」？大家會不會趁現在能做就先做，等監管真的來了再說？Luke, you can probably speak to sort of this two-year runway, right, that, you know, we may or may not have, where you just kind of go ahead and build as many things and roll out as many things as, you know, that you can. And, you know, by that point, maybe the— Everybody likes to say the toothpaste is out of the tube or the genie is out of the bottle. So, you know, these markets will be pretty integrated, and many institutions will have come in and already partnered. So hard to reverse that. Is that something that you're thinking about?

22:44我不能說我們就是這樣做，但確實有很多人這樣想。很多機構四年前很積極，FTX 爆掉後又退縮，現在又回來，這次大家比較像是「管他的，先做再說」。如果下屆政府要推翻一切，他們也會去抗爭。現在這種規模的玩家夠多，應該不會那麼容易被逆轉。不過還是要看選舉結果，未來兩年會很有趣。很多人現在的心態是，只要不是明文違法就先做，等監管真的來再調整。我們公司規模還沒大到能帶頭，但會跟著趨勢走。Well, I can't necessarily say that we're doing that, but, you know, folks that we've talked to certainly have that opinion. A lot of the people who have You know, spent a lot of time planning, and they've, you know, four years ago when we talked to them, they were all like gung-ho about it. FTX blows up, and they all kind of reverse course. Now they're back again, and this time they're kind of like, screw it, we're just going to go and, like, do this thing. And if the next administration wants to blow everything up, you know, we're going to just go fight them on it. And there's enough people doing that now that are big enough that I think it will probably last, but— I guess, you know, to be seen. I mean, we got a month until midterms. That will definitely change things. And then, you know, two years until a new administration comes in, probably. So, yeah, it'll be very interesting to see what happens. But it does feel like a lot of people are just kind of to the point of these guys, like, you know, it doesn't matter if regulators aren't going to do anything if it's— You know, not illegal, then it must be legal, and they're going to go do it. So hopefully those folks are able to, you know, kind of set the stage. We're not necessarily in a position to do that as a smaller company, but we will certainly go and follow where we can.

23:51其實在亞洲這邊還有離岸市場可以操作，兩邊都能兼顧。Look, if that's the consolation, the good thing about this part of the world, there's always the offshore market. Yeah, that's right. Do a little bit of both.

23:59傳統金融與 DeFi 的未來融合

23:59最後想請每位來賓談談，未來五到十年你們怎麼看傳統金融和 DeFi 的融合？是傳統金融會上鏈，還是 DeFi 會變得更像合規金融？Before we wrap, I want to ask each of you the same question. We've talked a lot this past year, at least I have, my podcast, about, you know, traditional finance and DeFi merging, the convergence of both. We look ahead, I want to say, you know, sometimes people say five, I want to say ten because it's a little bit more time to establish things. But, Luke, do you think traditional finance will have moved on-chain, or will DeFi have evolved to look more like regulated finance.

24:25我認為未來金融基礎設施會上鏈，但監管層還是會疊在上面。我們看到很多前沿資本形成的案例，這會成為 DeFi 融入主流金融的切入點，然後逐步擴大。有些機構認為會從最無聊的產品開始，但我相信五到十年內，這一切都會在鏈上運作得更好。I think our, you know, kind of perspective is that the rails will move on-chain, while the regulatory components will still need to be in place on top of it. I mentioned kind of this, like, edge frontier capital formation type flow that I think is the hook that brings DeFi, you know, kind of into the middle of normal finance, and it sort of grows out from there. We talked to a number of folks on the more institutional side who kind of believe the opposite, that it will start with the very boring stuff and move out. Who knows? We're all kind of trying to tackle the same problem. But I very much believe five to ten years, easily, yeah, all of this stuff will run much better on chain.

25:06我認為現在正處於基礎設施大升級的實驗期，所有東西都會重建或遷移到更有效率、更可組合的新架構。傳統資產管理也要準備好迎接高頻環境，例如我們現在每天揭露淨值，未來可能要每個區塊都揭露。資產管理端還有很多事要做，才能完全發揮新基礎設施的潛力。Yeah, I think we're now experimenting a fundamental infrastructure upgrade. Everything is going to be rebuilt or migrated to a more efficient and more composable infrastructure. So a lot of things we do traditionally has to be redesigned in a good way that's more efficient. And for example, like we, as an asset manager, part of our business, we bring assets on-chain, and we need to be ready for. This super high-velocity environment, like, are we ready to post on NEF every day? Probably yes. But are we ready to post on NEF every block? Probably not. So on the asset manager side, this still a lot of things we need to do to fully kind of utilize this new rails.

25:57我會從 Web2 普及的經驗來看 Web3。現在全球約 10% 人口用加密，跟 2003 年網路滲透率差不多。要進入大規模普及還需要 10 到 20 年。關鍵是使用者體驗和入口，像自我託管錢包雖然很棒，但還是要有更多簡單的入口，讓大家能輕鬆進入 DeFi 世界。像 VC 推出各種代幣化存款、黃金等產品，當使用者變得更成熟，就會發現自有錢包能做更多事。這是個漸進的過程，我自己也是花了三年才開始用錢包、再三年才開始玩比特幣以外的東西。就像 Apple Pay，原本不覺得會放棄實體卡，現在都用手機支付。這種採用曲線不會很快，但會慢慢發生。I guess I look at this. More from how Web2 became part of everyday life for everyone, right? It's a mass adoption phase. I think Web3 sort of at the beginning of that. And we about, you know, crypto use is about 10% of the global population, which is about the same for internet in 2003, right? It will take a while. I think it's like a long journey of, you know, 10 to 20 years. But the key here, and sometimes I think at this stage, we probably haven't quite figured out what are all the stars that need to be aligned, right? I think, frankly, internet didn't quite figure it out until 2009, that, you know, GPRS and smartphones and... A lot of things have to be sort of in place before e-payment, e-commerce become feasible, right? And I think Web3 is sort of, I think, approaching that moment. I think slowly we can see what's happening. But one of the key things we need to solve for everyone else is user friendliness, access. I mean, having a self-custody wallet is still, it's a noble concept. I think there's a big chunk of the capable people will be using that. But we have to think about access from other access points, so people get to DeFi products, DeFi world a lot quicker, easier, and within their comfort level. I think that's important. Like if you look at just VC at the moment, I think they've done a great job, right? They launch various, you know, they launch bonds, they launch deposit, tokenized deposit, and they launch tokenized gold, and they put that as a part of their bank offering for the bank clients, right? I think when these users become more sophisticated, And they realize that there's a much bigger world on the other side if they go for their own wallet to do more things. That's great. That's probably two, three, four years from now. I'm talking about my own experience. For example, we started investing in blockchains in 2017, 18. It took me three years to have a wallet, and it took me another three years for me to buy, trade more things than just Bitcoin, Ethereum. Yeah, and I only got the Solana not too long ago, two years ago. But it takes some time, right? I mean, obviously I'm the oldest guy on the stage. I'm a bit slower. I'm sure everyone else got there a lot quicker. I always use the example of my Apple Pay. Like, I never thought I would give up my actual physical debit card or credit card until all of a sudden I don't take those out with me anymore. I just tap to pay everything. So I guess it's a— process of adoption, but that adoption is not always super fast.

28:48Heyryung，最後有什麼想法？Hairong, any closing thoughts?

28:50最後這個問題其實也說明了為什麼我們四個會坐在這裡——一個來自 DeFi，三個來自傳統金融，這就是五年後的縮影。I think the last question is showing the answer why we four of us are here. So the two from the, one from the, you know, DeFi and three from the traditional finance, that means that what's going to happen in five years later. Yeah. Yeah. Awesome. Thank you guys so much. Thank you.