MEXC、Kraken 執行長對談：金融未來的無限機會

0:00金融未來的開場與自我介紹

0:00感謝大家來到新加坡參加 TOKEN2049。我們今天要討論金融的未來，現場有 Arjun 和 Vugar 一起參與。或許先請兩位簡單自我介紹一下，還有你們經營的業務，讓大家更認識你們。Thank you for joining us in Singapore at TOKEN2049. We are here to talk about the future of finance. I'm joined by Arjun and Vugar. Maybe start, for those who don't know, even though they probably do, a little bit about yourselves, the businesses you guys run, and we'll kick this thing off.

0:21大家好，歡迎來到 MEXC 舞台。我是 MEXC 的執行長，目前我們在全球 170 個市場服務 4,000 萬用戶，致力於為大家開啟無限的機會。Sure. Welcome everyone to MEXC Stage. I'm the CEO of MEXC, and today we proudly serve 40 million customers globally across 170 markets, and we are opening the gates to infinite opportunities for everyone here.

0:37我是 Arjun，Payward 的共同執行長。我們 2011 年創立了 Kraken，現在除了交易平台 NinjaTrader，也有銀行、資產管理和其他服務。Arjun, co-CEO, Payward. We also started Kraken in 2011, but today we extend NinjaTrader on the trading side, and then we also have banking, asset management, and services.

0:50傳統金融的不足與鏈上金融的優勢

0:50一開始想請問，MEXC 比較偏重散戶，Kraken（或 Payward）則偏向機構。你們認為傳統交易所或傳統金融目前最大的缺點是什麼？So maybe to kick it off, it's going to be interesting because obviously MEXC is a bit more retail-focused, Kraken is a bit more— or Payward, excuse me— a bit more institutional. What do you think the traditional exchanges or traditional finance in general is lacking currently?

1:07大家都說「金錢不眠」。但過去很多年，交易所都會關門休息。現在我們做的事情完全不同，因為鏈上金融正在成為新的線上金融。就像我們網購不用等店家開門，AI 也不會休息，隨時都能幫我們處理事情。我們正邁向 agentic（代理人）時代。The famous saying goes like, money never sleeps. And unfortunately, for many years, exchanges would close. At the end of the day, and what we are doing today is much different than any other time because on-chain is becoming new online. The same way we can go to our e-commerce shopping without waiting for shops to open or close, or AIs now don't sleep. They can do our tasks all the time, and we are stepping into the agentic world.

1:38當這個現代金融結合在一起時，我們不應該只考慮時間點。我們應該擁有一個全天候運作的機會，就像我們購物、就像我們過生活一樣。而我認為，傳統金融正因為鏈上技術讓我們能夠全天候運作，而正在慢慢被重塑。這是有史以來第一次，我認為在這個美麗的舞台上，經過多年我們不斷來討論，這是第一次我們真正看到傳統金融正被挑戰並且正在改變。When this modern finance comes together, we shouldn't be thinking about the times. We should have an opportunity that runs around the clock, the same way we shop, the same way we live our lives. And I think traditional finance is getting reshaped slowly by the fact that on-chain enables us to go around the clock, and it's the first time ever that I think in this beautiful stage that for years we are coming and discussing, this is the first time we are actually seeing how truly the traditional finance is being challenged and changed.

2:13我們已經看到紐約證券交易所和納斯達克也在嘗試實現 24 小時全年無休運作，我認為這對於一直以來致力於為所有人帶來機會的這個產業來說，是一項巨大的勝利。We have seen New York Stock Exchange and Nasdaq also trying to go 24/7, and I think that is a huge win for an industry that has been advocating for bringing opportunities for so long for everyone.

2:25資產普及與基礎建設的挑戰

2:25同樣的問題給我嗎？好的，請說。也許我可以從更機構化的角度來談談。你看，我認為大家都花很多時間在討論 24/7 全天候交易，還有機構和傳統金融（TradFi）對去中心化金融（DeFi）的影響。但我覺得更重要的是，現在有超過六十億人正在獲得全新的資產接觸機會。我們已經知道這些會是什麼樣子了，因為我們在穩定幣上已經看到了這個現象。所以，當全球對資產的需求出現，而這些需求以前是不存在的時候，到底是哪些機制、哪些公司、哪些基礎建設、哪些流動性池、哪些協議，能夠去支撐這樣的發展？Same question for me? Yeah, please. Maybe from a bit more institutional angle. Look, I think that everyone spends time on, you know, 24/7 trading and/or institutions versus, you know, what's going to happen with TradFi versus DeFi. I think what's more important is you've got about 6 billion people plus that are getting new access to assets. And so we know what those look like. We've seen that in stablecoins. And so when you've got demand for assets worldwide that they didn't have previously, what are the mechanisms and the companies and the infrastructure and the liquidity pools and the protocols that are going to help support that?

3:05所以我首先會這樣思考，就是我們的客戶是誰，以及我們可以提供哪些類型的產品，不論那些產品是投機性的、以存款為導向的，還是以收益為導向的。因此，我們安排時間和注意力的方式是：我們要如何服務消費者？我們要如何服務我們自己的競爭對手？我們要如何服務傳統銀行型態的產品？但同時，我們又要如何將大家現在在取得這些產品時遇到的摩擦降到最低？And so I kind of think about it first, which is who are the customers and what are the types of products that we can have, regardless if they're speculative, deposit-oriented, yield-oriented. And so the way in which we've structured our time and attention is: how do we serve consumers? How do we serve our own competitors? How do we serve, you know, traditional banking-style products? But how do we minimize the friction that everyone has right now in order to get access to those products?

3:32所以我認為你們應該都有聽到這個主題，關於資產代幣化、24/7全天候交易，但它真正的意義在於，如何把所有的質押品集中在一個地方。你知道，對於一個高資產淨值的個人或機構來說，不管是在美國還是新加坡，他們可以在想要的時候取得特定的資產或進行投機，那要怎麼把這樣的機會帶到每一個日常生活中的人身上？我喜歡用的類比是，Citadel花了數十億美元，能夠在各種資產類別之間做風險管理，並且根據需要隨時移動質押品，全天候24小時運作。我們要透過我們自己以及合作夥伴，把這樣的能力帶給全世界的每一個人。And so I think you've heard this theme around tokenized assets, 24/7 trading, but it really means how do you bring all that collateral in one place where, you know, for someone who is a high net worth individual or an institution, let's just say in the United States or here in Singapore, they get access to a certain set of assets or speculation when they want, and how do you bring that all the way down to someone on an everyday basis? And so the parallel I like to think and use is Citadel has spent billions of dollars being able to do risk management across all types of asset classes and moving collateral as they need in a 24/7 manner. We're going to bring that to every person in the world through ourselves and our partners along the way.

4:13用戶需求與降低摩擦

4:13那麼，Arjan，我想繼續沿著這個方向問下去，當你思考接下來五年你們的使用者時，你認為他們現在最渴望的是什麼？隨著他們開始採用現代化的金融基礎設施，你認為這些需求會如何隨著時間改變？So then, I guess, Arjan, to continue down that path, when you think about the next five years for your users, what do you see them craving now, and how do you see that changing over time as they start to adopt modern, just financial infrastructure.

4:26我認為你真正想要回答的問題是：我們要怎麼讓人們手上有更多的錢？他們要怎麼花這些錢？他們要怎麼在現實世界中做到這一點，同時又能享有資產增值，不管那是什麼資產？而針對我們今天正在做的事情以及未來的發展，哪些地區能夠最有效地支持這些目標？你知道，從司法管轄、監管的角度來看，還有哪些公司正在嘗試以無需許可的方式來探索這些問題，這其實應該是大家都要記住的指引方向。所以，我要怎麼才能像現金一樣自由地移動這些資金？這一直都是我們討論的重點。I think the question that you're, like, really trying to answer is how do you get people more money in their hands? How can they spend against it? How do they do that in the real world, as well as have the asset appreciation regardless of what that may be? And on what we're doing today and moving forward, what are the regions that are going to be able to help best support those? You know, jurisdictional, regulatory-wise, and who are the types of companies that are going out trying to figure out permissionlessly as, like, the guiding post, which I think is what everyone kind of forgets about. So how can I move this money just as freely as cash? And we've always talked about it.

5:06我們總是會用一份理論白皮書，或者技術規格，或者，你知道的，我們會——給某個東西貼上一個聽起來真的很蠢的標籤，但其實重點只是要讓更多錢進到人們手裡，這樣他們就能自己決定要怎麼使用這些錢。We always use a theoretical white paper for it, or a technical spec, or, you know, we'll— Label something that just sounds really fucking stupid, but it's just more about how do you just get more money in people's hands so that they can make the choice on what they want to do with it.

5:23散戶驅動的創新與摩擦消除

5:23現在，Vugar，當你談到零售端的發展，以及迎接下一波用戶採用潮時，你認為這股動能真正會從哪裡開始？And now, Vugar, when you talk about the retail side of things, onboarding the next adoption wave, where do you really see that stemming from?

5:31其實，Arjun 剛才提到了一個非常重要的點，就是摩擦。現在，尤其是對於一般使用者來說，摩擦真的非常大，對吧？如果你想要交易某一種資產類別，你需要在不同的軟體、平台之間切換，可能還要從你的銀行轉到新型網銀，然後再進到交易所。也許你還有經紀人參與，這要看你的稅級是哪一類。你有財富管理師可以協助你這個流程嗎？我認為，接下來的五年應該要致力於把這些摩擦降到最低。Actually, Arjun touched a very important point about friction. And today, especially for the retail user, friction is much huge, right? If you want to trade a certain asset class, you need to jiggle between apps, platforms, probably go from your bank to neobank to come to an exchange. Maybe you have a broker participating, depending. Which tax bracket you fall in? Do you have a wealth manager that can help you in this process? And I think next five years should be about minimizing this friction.

6:00機構和散戶之間其實有很大的差異，因為散戶的採用速度非常快，不管是永續合約交易、代幣化資產，還是其他新的東西，只要有新東西出現，通常都是散戶先進場。這也是我們在加密貨幣本身看到的現象，對吧？點對點網路，都是散戶先進來嘗試，然後機構才跟進。我認為在接下來的五年內，我們會看到散戶在推動這種無摩擦轉變上的影響力有多大，而機構也會因此受益，因為這裡會有巨大的需求，因為當客戶、也就是實際的使用者所在的地方，需求自然就會產生。And there's a really big difference between institutions and retail, because retail adopts very quick, whether it's perpetual trades, whether it is tokenized assets, whether it's something new that is in the picture. Usually retail comes first, and that is what we saw with the crypto itself, right? Peer-to-peer networks, where the retail comes first, tries it out, and then institutions follow. And I think in the next five years, we will be seeing how much retail is driving this change of being frictionless and how institutions will come and benefit from this because there will be. A huge demand because when the customer is where the actual user is.

6:38我認為接下來的五年會有很多嘗試與錯誤，並且會逐漸趨向於一個單一平台的融合，在這個平台上，各種資產類別和投資都能夠非常快速且順暢地流動，而散戶將會是這一切的主要推動力。And I think next five years will be a lot of trials, errors, and coming this convergence of a singular platform where asset classes can be and investment can be moved very quickly and very smoothly, and retail will be the main driver of this.

6:54信任、可擴展性與 AI 驅動的未來

6:54那你們怎麼看待實際的可擴展性層面，甚至是你們業務中模組化的部分呢？也許，Vugar，你可以先開始。首先，我們不只是把它當作一筆交易來思考，在 MEXC，我們更願意稱之為一個機會，甚至是無限的機會。無論你想要儲蓄、投資、交易，甚至是透過我們的消費機會和現金回饋來消費，還有更多可以在同一個生態系統內完成的事情。但這一切又回到三個最重要的層面。首先，就是信任。如果你沒有使用者的信任，你什麼都沒有。So how do you guys think about that actual scalability aspects, maybe even modularity of that in your businesses? Maybe, Vugar, if you want to kick that off. First and foremost, like— We want to think not just as a trade, rather than we allow at MEXC to call it an opportunity, an infinite opportunities. Whether you want to save, invest, trade, even spend with our spending opportunities and cashbacks, and there's so much more things could be done within the same ecosystem. But again, it comes with three most important aspects. First and foremost, it's trust. If you don't have a trust of a customer, you don't have anything.

7:44自從我上任以來，這就是我們的優先事項之一，要確保我們建立一個透明且值得信賴的生態系。為了達成這個目標，我們與 Hacken Group 合作，並持續公開我們的儲備證明。這是最重要的第一步，目的是讓使用者安心，確信他們的資產在我們這裡是安全的。And since I took office, that was one of the priorities to make sure that we build an ecosystem that is transparent and trustworthy. And how we do it, we partner with Hacken Group, and we continuously publish our proof of reserves. And this is the first and foremost to give reassurance to the user their assets are safe with us.

8:03第二，我們一直在大力投資，我們也承諾投入五億美元來擴大我們的Guardian Fund，目標是讓MEXC的Guardian Fund成為業界最大的使用者安全基金之一。目前，我們大約持有一億美元的USDT和大約兩千顆比特幣，而且我們會持續增加這個數字。一旦我們獲得信任，第二個重要的……面向就是「存取」。我們已經提到，無摩擦的體驗非常重要，建立並讓使用者能夠存取也很重要，以及我們如何能夠把所有機會都帶進同一個平台。這就是「交易一切」這個概念的由來。Secondly, we have been heavily investing, and we had the pledge of $500 million to increase our Guardian Fund to make MEXC's Guardian Fund one of the largest user safety funds across the industry. Today, we sit around $100 million USDT holdings and around 2,000 bitcoins, and we'll be continuously increasing that. Once we have the trust, second important... Aspect is an access. We already mentioned how frictionlessness is very important, how building and access to the user is important, and how we can bring all the opportunities within the singular platform. And that is where the trade everything idea comes in.

8:43我認為，MEXC在接下來幾年的主要目標，就是成為一個強大且完善的超級平台，讓使用者所有的金融需求都能在同一個生態系統中被滿足。而當你同時擁有了使用者的進入門檻和信任之後，最後一件事就是要打造未來。而現在，未來就是要做出正確且有根據的決策。當然，這一切都要仰賴AI和現代科技的協助，這正是我們為使用者打破循環的關鍵。我們正把機構級的絕佳機會帶給一般使用者，這要歸功於科技，更要歸功於AI，不論是在研究能力上，還是在做出正確決策或半自動化方面。I think the main goal for MEXC in the next couple of years is to become this robust super platform where users' all financial needs can be met within the same ecosystem. And once you have both access and the trust, and last thing is about building the future. And today, future is about making the right decision and informed decision. Of course, with the help of AI and modern technologies, this is exactly where we crack the cycle for the user. We are bringing the Institutional great opportunities to the users, thanks to the technology and definitely thanks to the AI, whether it is the research capabilities or whether it is making the right decision or semi-automating.

9:29我有一個非常大膽的預測，在接下來的幾年內，到2030年，至少有40%的所有交易將會由AI發起。無論是購買、投資，還是資金移動，這正是我們現在所準備的方向。And I have this very bold prediction that in next couple of years, by 2030, at least 40% of all the trades will be initiated AI. Whether it is purchasing, investing, or moving the funds, and that is what we are exactly preparing for.

9:44全球資產流動與合作新格局

9:44我想請問 Arjan，就你的角度來看，當你思考如何打造一個能夠經得起時間考驗的交易所時，在 Payward 你最重視哪些事情？And I guess, Arjan, on your side of things, when you think about building an exchange that's going to survive the test of time in the future, what are the things that you really pay attention to at Payward?

9:57我認為，我覺得我們常常忽略的一個很重要的部分是，當加密貨幣剛開始的時候，像是比特幣，大家很早期就投資了，對吧？那時候價格很低。隨著時間過去，價格也上漲了。所以當時你需要打造的產品和金融工具，主要是為了流動性。接著你有了下一個資產類別，以太坊，再下一個資產類別，依此類推。所以你現在有了一群新的族群和參與者，他們需要更多資本、更多產品的管道。與此同時，你還有，我不太想稱之為舊世界，但你有傳統金融機構在說：「我們也想進來。」Look, I think that, I think one of the most important... Pieces that we kind of miss is that when crypto started, right, like Bitcoin, people invested really early, right, at a lower price point. It's appreciated over time. And so the products and the financial instruments that you needed to build was for liquidity. Then you had your next asset class, Ethereum, next asset class, so on and so forth. So you've got this new set of Population and constituents that need access to more capital, more products. And then at the same time, you've got the, I don't want to call old world, but you've got the TradFi institutions saying, like, we want to come in.

10:35反過來說，你也希望能夠輪動你的資本並進行風險管理。我之所以這麼說，是因為信任很重要，但同時，如果你看看全球的人均GDP成長、財富累積，這些其實都發生在新興經濟體，而原因是他們能夠取得某些資產。所以你看看中國，你看看現在的印度，他們能夠自給自足、讓經濟有活力的唯一方式，就是因為他們有本地的流動性經濟可以支撐。Then vice versa, you want to be able to rotate your capital and do risk management. The reason I say these things is that, you know, trust is important, but at the same time, if you take a look at, you know, worldwide. GDP per capita growth, wealth accumulation. It happens in emerging economies, but it's because they have access to some of those assets. So you take a look at China, you take a look at India now. Like the only way they're going to be able to sort of self-sustain and have like a heartbeat of an economy is because they have a local liquid economy to be able to support.

11:04加密貨幣最棒的地方就是你擁有全球性的存取權限，而我們希望能夠讓越來越多全世界各地的人都能夠擁有這種全球存取權，無論他們身在何處，都能接觸到這些正在增值的資產。以美國來說，二戰後已經有七十年的發展，我們就拭目以待接下來的一百年會發生什麼事。所以當你擁有像這樣的全球存取權和全球流動性時，你就必須開始思考，該如何與每一個現有的金融科技軟體合作並建立信任？這並不是一個零和遊戲。因此，我們在打造一切時的思考方式就是：我們要如何建立並驗證垂直整合的產品？The great thing about crypto is you've got global access, and we want to be able to give more and more people worldwide. Global access to these assets that are appreciating, no matter where they might be. So for the U.S. post-World War II, you know, 70-year run, we'll see what happens over the next hundred years. And so when you've got, like, global access, global liquidity, then you have to start thinking about, okay, well, how do you partner and build trust with every fintech app that's out there as well? So it's not a zero-sum mechanism. And so the way we thought about building everything is How do we build and prove out vertically integrated products?

11:36所以這是我們的第一方應用程式，像是 Kraken、NinjaTrader，都是建立在我們的基礎設施上。現在的重點是，我們要如何把這些基礎設施擴展給合作夥伴，同時創造更多銀行和收益產品或存款產品，不論他們身處哪個司法管轄區。我們在資產管理方面也是做一樣的事情。我認為更重要的是，現在大約有七兆美元的私人資產被鎖住。所以，誰現在會在意公開市場上的代幣化股票？我們可以說：「我們讓你可以進入那個市場。」但事實上，在巴西、奈及利亞、坦尚尼亞，還有這裡的東南亞，你有這麼多公司在這些市場裡，這些地方的股權都被鎖住了。So this is our first-party apps like Kraken, NinjaTrader on top of our rails. Now it's about, okay, how do we extend those rails to partners, as well as creating more banking and yield products or depository products, regardless of where they are in which jurisdiction. And the same thing we're doing with asset management. I think what's more important is you got about $7 trillion worth of private assets locked. So who gives a shit about tokenized equities in the public markets for the timing, which is like, yo, we'll give you access there. But then you've got all of these companies in all of these markets in Brazil, in Nigeria, in Tanzania, all of these places, or here in Southeast Asia where you've got locked equity.

12:15那麼，你要怎麼以它作為質押來借貸？你要怎麼將它代幣化？你要怎麼真正把它們帶到公開市場？我認為未來最具流動性的公開市場將會在加密領域。因此，這代表 Kraken、MEXC、Bybit、Binance，我們大家都必須一起合作，還有 OKX 等等，一起想出新的機制。我們現在其實已經在做了，像是上架新的代幣資產。那麼，接下來我們要怎麼推出像是股票型代幣呢？所以這些事情其實並不遙遠。然後，你接下來想要做的，就是再進一步在這些基礎上建立金融工具。So how do you lend against it? How do you tokenize it? How do you actually bring them to the public markets? I think the best liquid public markets of the future are going to be in crypto. And so that means Kraken, MexC, Bybit, Binance. We all have to work together, OKX, etc., to figure out ways in which we can create a new mechanism. We already do it today, listing a new token asset. Now how do we bring out, like, equity tokens? And so these things are not far out. And then what you want to be able to do is then again build financial instruments on top of it.

12:45所以，今天在這裡的所有公司，他們都在打造各種金融產品和工具。我們必須找到方法，協助推廣他們，讓他們能夠在自己的核心市場、核心客群中擴大規模。不論對象是不是機構用戶都沒關係。而且，雖然我們已經有一定規模，但其實我們還是很小。我們目前在全球大約只服務了七百萬個有資金的帳戶。還有數十億的人需要我們去支持。唯一能做到這一點的方法，就是和其他夥伴合作，包括 MEXC，來協助他們在自己的核心市場取得成功。So all of the, you know, companies that are here today, they're building all these financial products and instruments. We got to find a way to be able to help promote them to be able to scale in their core markets, their core constituents. It doesn't matter if it's institutional or not. And, like, we're already at a large scale, but we're also small. Like, we only serve, you know, about roughly 7 million funded accounts globally. There's billions of people to go to help support. The only way to do that is to partner with folks, including MEXC, to be able to help succeed in their core markets.

13:17交易所合作與超級平台願景

13:17談到 Money Legos 和加密貨幣本身，設計初衷就是互通與合作。現在看到傳統金融和加密原生的合作越來越多，零售和機構的界線也在模糊。你們最近有合作的消息，可以分享一下未來合作的可能性嗎？Because when you think about Money Legos and crypto itself, it was designed to be interoperable collaboration. Now we're seeing traditional finance and crypto-native style collaborations. I mean, retail and institutional. I'd be curious, you both had an announcement. Can you talk about what collaboration may look like without divulging anything confidential, obviously? What would that look like on your guys' end, potentially?

13:41當我們參考現代的數據和研究時，大約有 74% 的人，特別是在零售端、活躍的投資者，他們計劃轉向一個類似我們這樣的單一超級平台，以滿足他們的零售或投資需求。我認為這是一個非常重要的因素，因為我們可以選擇合作，而不是競爭，大家一起在現有的基礎設施上，例如 Kraken 的基礎設施，進一步建構，而 MEXC 則可以把零售端帶進這個生態。正如我剛才提到的，今天我們很自豪地服務了 4,000 萬名使用者，遍及 170 個市場。讓 MEXC 非常強大的原因，就是我們以零售為優先的策略來進行產品開發和創新，不論是我們引入的永續合約市場，還是我們朝向代幣化資產類別發展的方向。When we look into, like, modern data and research, around 74% of the people who are especially in the retail end, who are active investors, they're planning to switch to— A singular super platform similar to ours to meet their retail needs or investment needs. And I think that's a very important factor, how instead of competing, we can all collaborate in order to build on top of the existing infrastructure like Kraken's and where MEXC can bring the retail end to the game. Today, we proudly, as I mentioned, serve 40 million customers across 170 markets. And what makes MEXC very strong is that retail-first approach when we build and innovate, whether it's perpetual markets that we bring in, whether it is the moving towards the tokenized asset classes.

14:30目前我們在股票機會中為我們的使用者提供超過7,000個交易對，最近也推出了本金保障帳戶，以及透過我們的卡片產品獲得收益、賺取利息，甚至消費的機會。我們實際上正在打造一個完整的零售生態系，讓我們的使用者在需要做出投資決策、打造更美好的未來或把握當下機會時，不需要再轉移到其他地方。而當談到與像Payward這樣的巨頭合作時，他們在各種基礎設施產品上有著大量投資，並且正成為底層基礎設施。我認為這為我們打開了大門，也相輔相成，讓我們終於能夠把機構級的工具帶給一般零售使用者。Today we list more than 7,000 pairs in the stock opportunities for our users, and recently with principal guaranteed accounts and opportunities to Get yield, earnings, and even spending through our cards products. We're actually building this full retail ecosystem that our users doesn't need to move further whenever they need to make that investment decision or build a better future or chase that opportunity in the place. And when it comes to possible partnerships with giants like Payward that has an extensive investment into different... Infrastructure products and becoming the underlying infrastructure. And I think this opens the doors and goes hand in hand where we can finally bring institutional-grade tools to the retail.

15:15正如我剛才提到的，因為散戶在測試新產品、提供我們非常重要的數據以及適應那些機構通常還沒準備好接受的事物方面，總是非常積極領先。這可能是一個非常有趣的機會。而另一個非常重要的關鍵點，就是Payward和Kraken在美國市場中的強大地位。例如，這裡有一個機會，我們可以利用現有的機會，比如人們交易數位資產和代幣化股票的方式，特別是在永續合約領域，然後重新想像這一切可以變成什麼樣子。And as I already mentioned, because retail is so forward-failing in terms of testing new products and giving us the very important data and adopting to the things that institutions usually are not as ready. That could be a very interesting opportunity. And very big key point is also how strongly positioned Payward and Kraken is within the U.S. market, for example. And there is an opportunity where we can take an existing opportunities, like the way people trade, let's say, digital assets and tokenized stocks, especially in perps, and then reimagine how it could be.

15:51如果未來相關的工作框架允許，我們也會將這項服務延伸到傳統市場，這將為機構帶來一個前所未有的巨大機會入口，讓他們能夠參與並體驗從未有過的可能性。Extended to the traditional markets if the workframes allow us in the near future, and that could open a huge gateway for also institutions to come and experience an opportunity that was never available before.

16:07我認為我們——不，我覺得，讓我說得更明確一點，長期以來，美國以外的地區已經有很多創新發生。亞洲一直在衍生品和永續合約方面走在最前面。這就像是加密原生的交易方式，或者說是大家首選的交易方式。所以你會看到全球持續不斷的創新。因此，當這些創新必須進入美國、英國或歐洲時，因為那是我們的起點，我們可以用哪些方式協助這些合作夥伴真正進入美國，即使他們和我們是競爭關係？好吧，那些方式有哪些呢？I think we're— No, I think, look, to put a finer point on it, you've got a lot of innovation that's happened outside the United States for a long time. Asia has been on the forefront on derivatives and perpetuals. It's like it's the crypto-native form of trading, or like the trading of choice. And so you have this continued innovation worldwide. And so when this innovation has to come to the United States or the UK or Europe, since that's where we started, what are all the ways in which we can help enable those partners to actually come to the U.S., even if it's competitive with us? Okay, well. What are those things?

16:41你可以幫他們做結算，你可以幫他們存款，你可以用這些資產做質押借貸，你可以確保他們有存款帳戶的存取權。這些事情，傳統金融體系要花很久的時間才能做到。所以我們可以選擇等他們，或者等創新出現，或者我們可以說，既然這些是創新者從離岸到在岸、反之亦然時，所面臨的最大對手風險，那我們就自己來建構這些東西。這也是為什麼我們過去十到十五年來，一直在打造我們的合規架構、結算架構、存款架構、借貸架構，這樣我們才能自給自足地支持自己。You can clear for them, you can deposit for them, you can lend against it, you can make sure that they have access to depository accounts. There's all these things that traditional finance is going to take forever to do. So we can wait for them, or wait for the innovation to come, or we can say we'll just build it ourselves, since those are the biggest, what I'd call counterparty risks to innovators from, you know, offshore to onshore, and vice versa. And so that's why we've spent the last 10, 15 years building out our regulatory stack, clearing stack, deposit stack, lending stack, so that we can support ourselves.

17:12但當我們為任何合作夥伴建立 API 時，這代表我們可以把他們帶到任何市場，然後創造出創新，即使這些創新具有競爭性。我認為這是一個非常重要的部分，就是他們彼此競爭，但這也意味著我們讓市場有更多選擇、更好的產品，而不是僅僅像你知道的，只是某個交易所對上另一個交易所。But then when we create an API for any of our partners, that means we can bring them to any of the shores and then create that innovation, even if it's competitive. I think that's a really important piece, is that they're competitive, but that means we open up the market to more choice, better products. Rather than just like, you know, one exchange versus another.

17:32金融自由、信任與透明的核心價值

17:32我想說，雖然美國已經從過去那種嚴苛的反加密貨幣時代走了很長一段路，但考慮到現在還是有很多限制等等，說美國是世界加密貨幣之都，感覺幾乎像是一個迷因。不過，抱歉，我有點離題了。回到正題。對你們來說，假設要用三個詞來形容接下來，比如說，加密貨幣產業未來五年，你們會選哪些詞？I will say, even though in the U.S. it came a long way from the draconian anti-crypto army era, it still almost felt like a meme to be the crypto capital of the world, given just a lot of the restrictions and whatnot that exist today currently. But sorry, a bit of a tangent. I digress. But for you guys, man. Let's say three words that you think would describe the next, we'll say, five years in crypto, for example. What would you put on them?

17:59我想說，對我來說最重要的事情就是那份 Bitcoin 白皮書，對吧？我覺得我們常常會忘記我們是從哪裡來的、我們想要做什麼、什麼是金融自由、什麼是去信任、無需許可的系統。我認為我們真的必須確保自己始終忠於我們創立這些公司的初衷和價值觀。這才是我們最在乎的事情。因此，一種能夠表達這些價值觀的機制就是交易；一種能夠表達這些價值觀的機制就是存款；而能夠更進一步展現這些價值觀的機制，就是儲備證明，來說明在這個生態系中，可靠性、負債、資產和負債分別是什麼樣子。Look, I'll just say the thing that's most important to me is the Bitcoin white paper, right? Like, I think we just kind of forget where we came from, what we're trying to do, what financial freedom looks like, what does trustless, permissionless systems look like. And I think that's actually where we have to make sure we stay very true to the values of why we started these companies. That's what we care about most. And so a mechanism to be able to express that is trading. A mechanism to be able to express that is deposit. A mechanism to be able to show that even more so is proof of reserve to say, okay, well, here's what, like, reliability, liabilities, assets and liabilities look like in the ecosystem.

18:37我認為——我們做得越不透明，這個產業就會對我們越不利。我們讓產業越透明，讓大家了解槓桿實際上是什麼樣子，還有為什麼傳統生態系、銀行，以及坦白說，所有現有的機構，這些機構中有些已經是失敗的機構，甚至有些是失敗的政府。這些就是我們必須要避免的。I think the— The less transparent we do, the less transparent we make the industry, the worse for us. The more transparent we make it around what does leverage look like, why the traditional ecosystem, banking and, you know, frankly, the full spectrum of all the institutions that are out there that are already failing institutions, failing governments in some cases. That's what we have to stay away from.

19:03基本上，延續剛才 Arjan 所說的內容，我認為專注於自由、專注於存取權是非常重要的。我覺得自由和存取權其實是密不可分的，因為只有當你擁有自由時，你才能真正行使你所擁有的存取權。這一點非常重要。對於 MEXC 來說，這關乎機會，因為我們希望打造一個通往無限機會的入口，不論你是機構、散戶，甚至可能是一個進行交易的 AI agent，你都能擁有機會，也擁有那個存取權和自由去把握這個機會。To basically build on what Arjan just said, I think it's very important to focus on the freedom, focus on the access, and I think freedom and access kind of go hand in hand, that you can exercise the access you have if you have the freedom. It's very important. And for MEXC, it is about opportunity because we want to build a gateway to infinite opportunities, whether you are an institution, a retail, or even maybe an AI agent that is trading, you have an opportunity and you have that access and freedom to exercise that opportunity.

19:35你們剛剛講得比我能說的還要有條理、有說服力。我只覺得，真的超級棒啊，兄弟。如果你看看現在所有正在發生的創新，真的會覺得這是一個很棒的時代。現在你可以打開 Claude，做一些事情——我是說，就算我有資訊工程學位，我平常也做不到這些事。喔，應該說是資訊工程輔系啦，我不想惹怒任何開發者。但這真的讓人覺得很有趣，因為現在真的有種世界就在你指尖的感覺，而且你的錢可以全天候流動，全年無休，24 小時、365 天。現在已經沒有什麼假日這種東西了，因為網路不會放假。這真的很讓人著迷。You guys said it way more eloquently than I would have. I just think fucking awesome, man. If you look at all the innovation that's going on right now, it feels like an amazing time to be alive. The fact that you can pull up Claude and do things that, I mean. I wouldn't normally be able to do, even with a computer science degree. It makes it—oh, minor in computer science. I don't want to piss off any devs out there. But it makes it really, really fascinating because it truly does feel like the world is at your fingertips now, and your money can move around the clock, 24/7, 365. There's no such thing as a holiday because the internet doesn't take any holidays. It truly is fascinating.

20:09AI 對散戶與機構的影響

20:09Vugar，你剛剛提到 AI，未來 AI 對散戶會有什麼影響？And, Vugar, you touched on AI. How do you see AI impacting retail users just going forward?

20:17非常重要的是，AI 正在協助一般使用者或任何使用者做出正確的決策，我相信在這個時刻，因為我們擁有大量的資訊。如果說過去資訊是被把關的，做決策的權利也只限於極少數人能夠取得，那麼現在，消息傳播得非常快速，而且不只是你離消息的距離有多近，更重要的是你能多快把這些資訊轉化為可執行的行動。我相信 AI 正在協助我們做到這一點。Very importantly, AI is helping a retail user or any user to make the right decision, I believe at this point, because we have an abundance of information. And if previously information was gatekept and decisions that are made was very... Limitedly or exclusively accessible by the very few. Today, news travels very fast, and it is not just how your proximity to the news, but it's also how fast you can take that information and make it into the actionable points. And I believe AI is helping us with that.

20:53第二，對於像我這樣來自傳統金融背景的人來說，Bloomberg Terminal 曾經是交易大廳上一項神奇的發明。如今，AI 正以極低的成本，將這種機構級的巨大機會帶給一般使用者。第三，我相信因為 AI 不會休息，再加上可程式化的特性，即使是一般使用者，我們也能夠真正建立一個基礎設施，讓 AI 能夠代表我們執行許多操作，不論是預訂晚餐，還是訂購汽車的備用零件。Secondly, for someone like me who comes from a traditional financial background, Bloomberg Terminal was such a magic invention of Trading floor. Today, AI is bringing that institutional great opportunity to a user in a fraction of the cost. And third, I believe because AI doesn't sleep, and with programmability, we are able actually to build an infrastructure, even as a retail user, where AI can do so many actions on our behalf, whether it is Booking, I don't know, at dinner or ordering, you know, spare parts for our car.

21:31我相信在不久的將來，AI 也能夠處理許多與金融相關的瑣碎任務，例如報銷你的差旅費用，甚至可能幫你進行一些消費，或是在有可能的地方協助申報稅務，最終甚至能夠代表我們進行交易。我真的這麼相信。正如我剛才提到的，我們的統計數據和研究顯示，到 2030 年，至少有 40% 的這些交易行為將會由 AI 發起，我認為這是一個非常大的數字，我們必須為此做好準備。And I believe in the near future, AI will be able also to take a lot of mundane tasks when it comes to the finance, reimbursing your travel, probably doing some spending, maybe filing tax in the places where it's possible, and eventually conduct the trade on our behalf. And I believe. As I mentioned already, our statistics and our research shows that by 2030, at least 40% of these trade actions will be initiated by AI, and I think that's a very big number, and we have to get prepared for that.

22:01AI 與機構交易的未來

22:01機構端有更多規範，但 Arjun，你怎麼看 AI 對機構交易的影響？Yeah, and obviously there are a bit more guardrails on the institutional side of things, but Arjan, how do you see AI impacting the institutional trading experience?

22:11你看，我認為——你知道，退一步來看我們在這個生態系中想要做的事情，我們正在打造的機制本身就會產生利潤。而我認為，對於像我們這樣的公司，或是生態系裡的任何人來說，我其實覺得我們的責任是，好的，那我們要怎麼把這些利潤再投入到公司其他領域，讓成本變得更低？所以，即使在這裡的新興市場，我們也有這麼多公司正在嘗試打造金融服務、金融產品、金融工具，等等等。AI 必須成為這個故事的一部分。但我認為加密貨幣和 AI 就像兄弟姊妹一樣。Look, I think the— You know, taking a step back around what we're trying to do in the ecosystem, there are mechanisms of what we're building that generates profit. And I think, you know, for companies like ours or anyone in the ecosystem, I actually think our responsibility is, okay, well, how do you drive those profits back into other areas in your companies to make it cheaper? So we have so many companies even here in the emerging markets. that are trying to build financial services or financial products, financial instruments, so on and so forth. AI has to be a part of that story. But I think of crypto and AI being brothers, sister.

22:46在加密領域這一塊，所謂的可編程資本、微支付、微秒級系統，能夠促成任何形式的支付、借貸，不管是什麼用途，甚至是機器對機器之間的交易。這是針對使用者端來說的。好，現在來看，這些東西目前成本還是很高，你有一些前沿實驗室在做，但同時也有開源模型，不管是不是中國的。其實我們一直以來的重點是這些，你知道，我們是一家交易所，所以我們自己打造了自己的機櫃、自己的伺服器、自己的系統。我們也做過驗證者和節點的運營，也做過比特幣挖礦。所以我們一直都在這個生態系裡，為我們的使用者和機構建立這些基礎設施。現在，我們需要為我們的使用者打造這些東西。On the crypto side, programmable capital, microtransactions, microsecond systems to be able to facilitate any sort of payment, lending, whatever it might be, machine to machine. That's on the customer side. Okay, well. Today it's expensive, and you have the frontier labs, but then you've also got open source models, regardless if they're Chinese or not. A lot of what we focused on is, you know, we're an exchange, so we built our own racks, our own servers, our own systems. We've done validators and nodes. We've done Bitcoin mining. So we've been in that ecosystem where we have built that infrastructure for our customers and the institutions. Now we need to build that for our customers.

23:22這代表我們的客戶將會是其他金融服務和應用程式，以及隨著時間推移的其他合作夥伴。然後，針對我們直接面向消費者的交易產品，我們需要讓代理人免費。我們必須能夠讓代理人的代理人也免費，並且我們需要能夠找到方法，如果你真的去思考什麼是財務自由，我們就必須在這一方面創新，而不是把它交給那些會繼續在其上加收利潤的人。And so what that means is our customers are going to be other financial services and apps, other partners over time. And then for our, you know, direct-to-consumer products that we have for trading, we need to make agents free. We need to be able to make agents of agents free, and we need to be able to make ways in which, if you really think about what financial freedom is going to be, we have to find ways in which we can innovate on that side versus giving it to other folks that are going to— Continue to charge a margin on top of it.

23:46所以我認為，持續在模型端、推論端以及我們自己的技術堆疊上創新，是我們的責任。這也是我們在 Payward 已經開始做的事情，並且我們希望能盡可能自由地讓任何想要打造金融產品的人都能夠使用這些能力，不論這些產品是無需許可的、受監管的，還是未受監管的。我認為，這一直是我們的重點。接下來的幾週和幾個月內，你們會看到我們推出許多這類產品。So I think it's our responsibility to continue to innovate even on the model side, on the inference side, our own stack, and with something that we're already starting to do at Payward, and then being able to help enable that as freely as possible to anyone who wants to be able to build financial products, regardless of they're permissionless, regulated, or unregulated. And I think, like, that's been our focus. And, you know, over the next coming weeks and months, you'll see us, like, launch a lot of those products.

24:15Agentic Trading 與 Agentic Payments 的交會

24:15AI agent 在支付和交易都很熱門，你們覺得 agentic trading（代理人交易）和 agentic payments（代理人支付）哪個會先改變大家生活？Yeah, it's an interesting one. I mean, obviously AI agents are a super hot topic, clearly in the payments space as well as in the trading experience space. Which do you see having a more material impact on people's lives first, agentic trading or agentic payments?

24:28它們是密不可分的。而我認為更令人興奮的是，你可以透過一個控制介面連接到任何這些金融機構或產品。這個控制介面可以是我們的，也可以是其他人的，但重點在於建立信任。接著，什麼樣的層級可以讓你打造那些機器人、交易或代理人，能夠代表你執行操作？你看，如果你在睡覺時，還能從5%的收益率自動切換到7%的收益率，根據你所在的司法管轄區，還能確保安全，這本身就是一個產品。而且，這些產品之所以能夠實現，是因為已經有人投入了數十億美元來解決這些問題。They go hand in hand. And I think what's much more exciting is that you can connect to any of these financial institutions or products from a harness. The harness might be ours or someone else's, but it's more about building out that trust. And then what is the layer for you to be able to make those bots or transactions or agents to be able to work on your behalf? Look, if you are Sleeping, and then you can go from a 5% yield to a 7% yield that's safer back down, depending on the jurisdiction you are. Like, that is a product in itself. And again, all of these products are available because people have already spent billions of dollars to figure this out.

25:04而且，我覺得大家真的要拿出實際行動來支持自己的想法，就像我們當初打造 XStocks 基礎設施一樣。我們的計畫不是要從這上面賺錢。我們的計畫是確保所有想要在這個基礎上做金融科技應用、進行創新的人，他們才是能獲得收益的對象。他們才是那些能拿到收益的使用者。所以我們在這裡也必須做到同樣的事情。我覺得很酷的是，現在有越來越多這樣的創新，其實都是在美國以外的海外地區發生。當我說海外的時候，其實我自己是住在美國的。And, like, I think people have to kind of put money where their mouth is, the same way that we built out the XStocks infrastructure. Our plan is to not make money on it. Our plan is to make sure all of the fintech applications that people that want to instrument or innovate on top of it, they're the ones that get that yield. They're the customers that get that yield. And so we have to be able to do the same thing there. And I think what's cool is a lot more, again, of that innovation is happening offshore outside the United States. When I say offshore, like I live in the U.S.

25:32所以我們必須能夠把這些創新帶回來，並且能夠自我推廣，無論是為了我們的使用者、產品，還是任何合作夥伴。而且這並不是幾年後的事情，這些產品在幾週內就會推出。我認為，這大概是我們在金融服務領域能做到的最令人興奮的新前線。And so we got to be able to bring that innovation back and to be able to help self-promote that for our, again, for our customers and products and any of our partners that are there. And that's not years away. These are products that are coming out in weeks. And I think, like, that's probably the most exciting frontier of what we can do with financial services.

25:51對啊，Vugar，有什麼想法嗎？說真的，深入來看……機器驅動的交易一直都存在，對吧？像是量化公司、演算法交易，這些一直都在。這代表，作為人類、作為投資人，我們從來不怕讓機器來做決策。無論是支付還是投資，只要你不去想那種極端情況，比如把我們整個投資組合一次性交給 AI 操作，或者你大概也不會信任 AI 來幫你做那種一生一次的重大決定，比如用一筆交易買下你要住的地方、公寓或房子。但除了這些情況之外，其他的我大概都會願意。Yeah, Vugar, anything out there? Honestly, looking deep into, like... Machine-powered trading was always there, right? There's like a quant firms, algorithmic trading. It has always been there. It means, as humans, as investors, we have never been afraid of, you know, machines making a decision. When it comes to whether it's payments, whether it's investing, if you don't think of an extreme case where we put Our entire portfolio in a single trade in the hand of an AI, or whether you wouldn't also probably trust the AI with once-in-a-lifetime decisions like buying, you know, the place to live, an apartment or a house in a single trade. But for everything else, probably I would.

26:34將這個主題分成兩個層面來看：一個是 AI 會像代理人一樣替你做決策，也就是所謂的 agentic AI；另一個則是 AI 輔助你的決策。在這兩種情境下，正如 Arjun 所提到的，這兩者其實是相輔相成的。我認為並沒有什麼本質上的差異，無論哪一個先發生、哪一個後發生，因為到頭來，每一筆交易或每一次付款本身就是一個交易行為，或者說本身就是一種買賣。如果你想一想，不管你是在買股票還是買咖啡，其實沒有差別。Divide it into two aspects where AI makes a decision on your behalf, like an agentic AI, or it is AI-assisted decision making. In both, as Arjun mentioned, they go both hand in hand. And it's, I don't think there's a huge difference which comes first, which comes later, because at the end of the day, every trade or every payment is a transaction in itself, or is a trade in itself. If you think whether you are buying a stock or a coffee, it doesn't matter. Yeah.

26:59中小企業、資本市場與未來想像

26:59讓我再為你描繪另一幅圖像，一個可能更有趣的畫面：你是一家中小型企業。你需要資金的取得。你有代理人代表你，幫你進入 DeFi 市場，以便讓你的事業成長。那會是什麼形式呢？也許對你來說，是一份白皮書，讓你能夠在加密貨幣交易所公開上市，因為我們擁有 24/7 的流動性。這就是我們所專注的目標。Let me paint you another photo, a picture that might be much more interesting, is that you're a small to medium business. You need access to capital. You've got agents working on your behalf to be able to get access to the DeFi markets to be able to grow your business. So what form will that be? Maybe it's a white paper for you to be able to go public on the crypto exchanges because we've got 24/7 liquidity. That's what we're focused on.

27:23我認為對我們以及那些已經在這個領域的合作夥伴來說，我非常確信我們將會進入一個這樣的世界：資本的取得，或者說對於一個想要上市、位於巴西、年營收甚至只有五百萬到一千萬的人來說，他們將能夠在加密貨幣生態系中取得資本債務市場或股票市場的資金。這就是我們應該思考的方向。這也意味著他們可以拿到卡片、可以發行、可以獲得成長的機會，而不需要再去煩惱，比如說他們能不能在本地市場上市，或者我是否有機會在紐約證券交易所或NASDAQ上市。I think for us and the partners that are already out there, like I'm pretty positive we're going to be in a world where access to capital, or for someone wanting to go public that's sitting in Brazil that's got, you know, even five to ten million revenue, they're going to be able to access, you know, capital debt markets or equity markets in the crypto ecosystem. And that's the way to sort of think about it. And that means they get cards, they get issuance, they get access to being able to grow without having to be, you know, focused on. Like trying to figure out, can they go public in their local market, or will I ever have the ability to go public on NYSE or NASDAQ?

27:55AI 花費與總結

27:55說得很好。我想我們大概還剩下一分鐘，所以我來問一個比較有趣的問題。你現在每個月在 AI 上的個人花費大概是多少？就只是個人用途。對，個人用途。Well said. And I guess we got like a minute left, so I'll ask a bit of a fun one. What's your personal monthly AI spend currently? Just personal. Yeah, personal.

28:05對啊，個人每個月用在 AI 上的花費。大概是一個月十萬美元。你說，什麼？不好意思？我每個月大約花十萬美元，而且這是我個人的預算。Yeah, personal monthly AI. It's like a hundred thousand dollars a month. You said, excuse me? About $100,000 a month I spend on, and personally I budget.

28:19其實，這感覺很類似，但我最近也開始接觸音樂製作，而且我一直在用 AI 來製作音樂，結果我花掉的代幣比我本來應該花的還要多。我覺得我好像——踏進了一個有點危險的領域，連我的興趣都變成是由 AI 協助的。Actually, it's like similar, but also I recently picked on music production, and I've been using AI to produce music, and I've been burning much more tokens than I should, and I think like I'm— Stepping into this, like, a dangerous zone where even my hobbies are kind of assisted by AI.

28:35喔，天啊，我得把我的數字提升一點。我現在的數字還很菜啊，兄弟們。我大概只有一個月一千美元左右。不過，真的很感謝各位。時間快到了，但真的非常感謝你們在 TOKEN2049 跟我們聊未來金融的話題。也謝謝大家的聆聽，非常感激。謝謝你們邀請我們。謝謝。謝謝。Oh man, I gotta pump my numbers up. I got rookie numbers, man. I'm maybe at like a GMonth, a thousand dollars. But gentlemen, really appreciate it. We're running low on time, but really, really grateful for chatting with us at TOKEN2049 about the future of finance. And thank you all for listening. Really appreciate it. Thanks for having us. Thank you. Thank you.