以太坊新篇章：Lubin、Morpho、Bit Digital 共探經濟未來

0:00以太坊經濟活動新篇章

0:00我們現在有一點時間來討論以太坊上的經濟活動到底長什麼樣子。過去十年真的非常精彩，我們見證了一個瘋狂的想法成真，甚至發展得更遠。如果你還沒注意到，這一週、甚至過去六個月的主題，就是機構真的來了，正全力進場。我想先從一個基礎問題開始，因為我們一直在討論以太坊能做什麼、我們希望大家在以太坊上做什麼。我想先請 Joe 講講，你覺得現在在以太坊上有哪些一兩年前還做不到的事？So we got a little bit of time to talk about basically what the economic activity on Ethereum looks like. It's been a pretty eventful decade. We've seen a crazy idea come to life, and now even more. And if you haven't noticed, the theme this week and the last six months has been, institutions are finally here, coming, going full steam ahead. And one of the things I want to start off with is trying to sort of just level set a bit. There's been so many things that we've talked about Ethereum can do, and we wanted people to do on Ethereum. And I'd love to kind of hear, maybe starting with Joe, on just what do you feel like is now finally possible on Ethereum that wasn't possible a year or two ago.

0:53以太坊現在能做的事情真的很多，但我想聚焦在兩個跟我們在 MetaMask 和 Consensys 正在做的事密切相關的點。首先，在錢包端，現在每個人都可以真正擁有自己的財務自主權。你可以把整個財務生活完全掌控在自己手上，完全不需要經過任何人同意。你不用再問銀行經理能不能多領一點錢。透過 MetaMask Money 帳戶，你可以把所有資產放進一個個人化的金流作業系統。當你把錢放進這個系統，它會自動開始賺取收益，年化 6% 甚至更高，資產也保持高度流動性，還能用於交易、永續合約、預測市場、代幣化股票等。你可以用帳戶裡的代幣或區塊鏈簽帳金融卡（走 Mastercard 金流）來支付。So much is possible on Ethereum, but I'll focus on two things because they're closely related to what we're doing at MetaMask and ConsenSys. So one thing that is possible on the wallet side is that everybody can now have real personal financial agency. You can have your entire financial life fully under your control, permissionless. You don't have to ask your bank manager if you can take out a little bit more money than they're comfortable with. And you can, via the MetaMask Money account, put all of your assets into a single personal money operating system. When you put your money into that money operating system, it comes alive in the sense that it's suddenly earning quite a lot of yield, 6% or higher. It remains fully liquid, and you can make use of it in trading and perps and prediction markets, tokenized equities, etc. You can invest it in different other ways, and you can pay for things either with tokens from the account or via the debit card, which is a pure blockchain debit card, but it runs on the Mastercard rails.

2:17在以太坊本身，我們正處於統合整個以太坊生態系的關鍵時刻。我們在 Consensys 做了一些概念驗證，昨晚我還跟 EEZ 的 Jordi Baylina 和另一位同事 Jordi 聊到，他們做了很棒的概念驗證。為了讓以太坊第一層有更高擴展性，這方面進展很快，我們現在擴容速度是兩倍、三倍成長，未來幾年擴容會以數個數量級成長，主要靠零知識證明技術，也有模組化架構、rollup 為核心的路線圖，甚至還有用以太坊技術打造的私有鏈。現在這些都能用 Besu 執行技術整合進統一的以太坊生態，透過不同網路上的零知識證明，把分散的流動性整合成一個統一的流動池，實現原子執行，讓你能在多個網路間即時執行大量交易，完全不用危險的跨鏈橋。接下來我們會看到大量企業鏈、Layer-2，讓以太坊成為可信中立、可靠的數位資產結算平台。On the Ethereum side, we are on the verge of unifying the entire Ethereum ecosystem, so. We've been doing some proofs of concept at ConsenSys. I was speaking with Jordi Baylina of EEZ and one of his colleagues, also named Jordi, last night, and they've been doing some really great proofs of concept. And the idea there is that we had to, in order to achieve scalability at layer one, of Ethereum, and that is moving really well. We're doubling scalability, we're tripling scalability, and we'll see scalability grow at layer one by orders of magnitude over the next few years, mostly through zero-knowledge proof technology, but also the modular architecture, the rollup-centric roadmap, and actually private permissioned blockchains using Ethereum technology. Using the Besu execution technology can now be all brought into a unified Ethereum ecosystem where, using zero-knowledge proofs on the different networks, you can compose a bunch of activity. You can take fragmented liquidity and bring it into a unified liquidity pool. In an atomic execution context, and you can run a whole bunch of transactions across a bunch of different networks in real time without the use of dangerous bridges. And so we're about to see lots of corporate chains, lots of layer twos, and Ethereum will be the credibly neutral, reliable. Digital asset settlement platform.

4:00DeFi 與 Web2 體驗融合

4:00你這樣講好像把整個議程都訂下來了（笑），但我們還是讓 Paul 和 Sam 也來分享一下。從你們的角度來看，很多想法現在真的開始落地了。你覺得現在有什麼一兩年前還完全不可能、現在卻變得超級明顯的事？對我來說，從 DeFi 和金融產品的角度來看，跟兩年前最大的差異就是我們已經達到 Web2 的功能等級。什麼意思？現在我們有完整的帳戶抽象、手續費也大幅降低，這代表你可以打造大規模消費者級的金融產品，使用者根本不知道背後是以太坊在運作。唯一的差別就是這些金融產品的價格更好、流動性更深，因為底層基礎設施是開放的，可以聚合更多流動性、更多競爭。我們在 Morpho 做的第一個例子，就是整合到像 Coinbase、Robinhood 這種平台，終端使用者完全不知道背後有鏈。這只有在 DeFi 生態成熟、手續費便宜、帳戶抽象完善時才做得到，所有東西組合起來，對使用者來說就是一鍵完成，沒有額外成本。I feel like you're just gonna set the whole agenda. Let's just call it early. We got— Yeah, it's all solved. But we'll let Paul and Sam answer too. Like, from kind of your perspectives, I feel like a lot of the ideas are now finally coming to life. What do you feel like is super obvious that wasn't possible a year or two ago? Yeah, I guess for me, taking the DeFi and financial products angle. The very stark difference compared to two years ago is that we have reached feature parity with Web2. What do I mean by this? Is that now that we have full account abstraction and we have lower gas fees, what that means is that you can build financial products for large-scale consumer distribution that you have no idea is powered by Ethereum behind the scenes, right? Like, you could not tell. The only, you know, difference is that the financial product that you're going to use is actually of a better pricing, has deeper liquidity because the underlying infrastructure is open and is able to aggregate more liquidity, more competition, etc., etc. And I think the first example of that that we at Morpho built was like integrating into the Coinbases of the world or the Robinhoods of the world, where the end users have literally no idea that the chain is behind the scenes, right? And this is only possible when you have mature DeFi ecosystem, cheap gas fees, as well as like a full account abstraction stack, and you combine everything together and compose the actions such that from the user perspective, it's just one click. That is like no additional cost, nothing.

5:30我認為這就是從零到一的突破。第二點是來自大型分銷平台和華爾街的信任，他們現在把區塊鏈、特別是以太坊，視為可靠的結算平台，可以把所有使用者資產放在 DeFi 協議上。例如 Coinbase 目前大約有 30 億美元的客戶資產在 Morpho 上，Robinhood 也有約 10 億美元資產在 Morpho 智慧合約裡。我們正達到對 EVM 及其程式碼的高度信任，這在兩年前根本不存在。好消息是這種信任正在複利成長，大家看到 Robinhood、Coinbase 這些大品牌都在做，傳統金融機構也開始把分銷搬到鏈上。這代表原本在傳統金融軌道上發行的 ETF，成交量會被鏈上吸走。如果你是 Fidelity、BlackRock 或 Apollo，你現在會思考怎麼上鏈、怎麼自己經營這些金融服務，提供給大規模分銷，這完全是從零到一的變化，一年前根本不可能，現在大家都在做。And I think to me this is like the real, like, zero to one. So that's one. The second is purely just trust from like all those large, like, distribution platforms and Wall Street in general, where they now recognize blockchains and Ethereum in particular as like a reliable settlement platform where they can have all their user balances. Like on a DeFi protocol, on Ethereum, right? Like if you take like Coinbase, for example, there is like probably like $3 billion of customers' assets that are on Morpho, right? Robinhood has like a billion dollars of assets that are in the Morpho smart contract, right? So we're reaching this level of trust with the EVM and the code that has been built in the EVM. That was definitely not there two years ago. And the good news is that this trust is compounding, right? Like people see the good, the big logos like Robinhood, Coinbase doing stuff, and they're like, Oh wow. Like as a TradFi institution, all this distribution is coming on-chain. It means that my ETF that I was distributing on TradFi rails. is not going to be, you know, getting that much volume because volume is coming on-chain. So if you're like a Fidelity, if you're a BlackRock, if you're a Apollo, you're thinking about how do I move on-chain and I start to, like, operate those rails in order to myself, you know, curate, operate those financial services to offer to large distribution. And that's a complete zero to one that a year ago was not, like, a reality. Like suddenly and then instantly, it's just everybody's on it.

6:59機構進場與代理經濟崛起

6:59Sam，你也來分享一下。問題是：一兩年前以太坊還做不到，現在卻開始大規模落地的事情是什麼？我真的沒想到短短一年內會發生這麼多事。過去一年有三件事我原本完全想不到會這麼快發生。首先，金融機構方面，我們看到 J.P. Morgan 和 BlackRock 把貨幣市場基金代幣化。這在幾年前根本是天方夜譚，但過去一年真的發生了。第二，我們現在看到代理經濟（agentic economy）興起，今天我會多談這個。我認為代理人（AI 代理人 s）和以太坊有巨大交集，代理人需要運算資源和資金，這就是穩定幣，之後我們會談這個交集如何影響以太坊和 ETH。最後，現在企業開始用加密貨幣抵押借款，打造大型資料中心。Bit Digital 是史上第一家用加密貨幣抵押借款，在北卡羅來納州蓋了一百萬平方英尺的資料中心，服務一個十億美元的 Nscale 合約（Nscale 準備 IPO）。這在以前根本沒發生過。這些都是和以太坊息息相關的大事，幾年前根本無法想像。And same, all your comments as well. So the question is, what— can you repeat the question? Just what was not possible a year or two ago on Ethereum that now you're seeing everybody sort of do things, and it's sort of really kind of coming to life from... Yeah, I would never have imagined. I mean, we've come a long way in just one year. So I guess three things have occurred over the past year that I would not have imagined would have happened anytime in the near future at the time, which is, well, first of all, with respect to the financial institutions, we've seen J.P. Morgan and BlackRock tokenize their money market funds. You know, that would have been a mind-blowing statement to say. Just a number of years ago that happened over the past year. I mean, secondly, you know, we see now the rise of the agentic economy, and I have a lot to say about that today. But I think that there is a huge convergence and an intersection with agents. Agents need compute to think, and they need money. And that is basically stablecoins, and we'll talk more about how that intersection will play out for Ethereum and ETH. And lastly, you know, businesses are now using crypto to borrow against and build massive data centers. Bit Digital is the first company in history to use its crypto to borrow against it and build out. A one million square foot data center in North Carolina to service a one billion dollar contract with Nscale that's, I think, IPOing soon. No company has ever done that. And so I think these are, you know, these are major moves happening that have a connection to Ethereum, and these are statements that would have been pretty impossible to say just a couple of years ago.

8:50Morpho 的開放信貸網路願景

8:50我想回到 Paul 這邊，你現在把 Morpho 打造成開放信貸網路，背後有很大的願景。能不能讓大家了解你怎麼看 Morpho 的未來，以及這會帶來什麼突破？我們把 Morpho 定位為全球開放信貸網路。具體來說，就是有一群人有多餘資本想賺利息，另一群人需要資金來實現夢想，我們的目標就是撮合這兩方，讓願意信任他人理想的人提供資金支持。Morpho 的目標是讓這兩方的撮合效率最高。為什麼要這樣做？因為我們想降低人與人之間的信任成本。要做到這點，就需要一個共享的結算層，把所有借貸雙方聚集在同一個地方。區塊鏈本來就是最適合這種場景的基礎設施，因為它天生開放，競爭也更激烈。我認為區塊鏈的殺手級應用就是開放性，這帶來兩個金融基礎設施最重要的特點：價格競爭和可及性。I want to get back to Paul here. So you're building Morpho into Open Credit Network, and there's a pretty big vision behind this thing. I'd love to kind of have the audience understand how you think about the future of Morpho and what does that unlock. Yeah, I guess, like, first, so we think of Morpho as, like, you know, what we call the open credit network for the world, like— Concretely, what does that mean? It's like you have people that have an excess of capital, they want to generate interest. You have people that have a need for financing, you know, they have ambitions they want to realize for the world, and our goal is to match the two, right? Like people that are willing to trust the ambition of someone else with capital and fund them. And the goal of Morpho is to establish the most efficient matching between the two parties, right? And then you, you, you, so the reason why you want to do this is basically you want to reduce the cost that people have to trust each other, right? And in order to do that, you're thinking, hey, we need like a shared, like, settlement layer where this is going to be able to happen, to aggregate all the lenders and all the borrowers in one place in order to make things happen, right? And so. Blockchains are obviously a very natural environment for that, where by definition the infrastructure is open, and so as a result, you have much more competition, right? I really think, like, you know, I like to think of the killer use case of blockchain being openness, and openness fosters two interesting things for financial infrastructure: competition on pricing and accessibility, right?

10:16舉個具體例子，像 Coinbase 以前的借貸服務是中心化的，不在區塊鏈上，發放貸款時有很多中介，利率也很高。現在他們直接在區塊鏈上結算，這時會有成千上萬的放款人來競爭，給 Coinbase 最好的利率。Morpho 的本質就是把借貸利差壓縮到最低。這個利差在現實經濟中很高，全球銀行的淨利息差大約是 3%。我們的使命就是壓縮信任成本，讓資金取得更便宜。唯一能做到這點的方法就是用開放基礎設施，Morpho 這個核心協議能聚合雙方的意圖。So. Very concrete example, and coming back to, like, you know, how Coinbase built loans on Morpho, they used to have a centralized service for loans, right? That was not built on blockchains, etc. In order to issue the loans, they had, like, intermediaries, and the rate was very high. What happens now is that they settle directly on blockchain. And so when this happens, you have tens of thousands of lenders that are going to come on the other side and that are going to compete. To give Coinbase, like, the best interest rate possible. So what effectively we're doing as Morpho is we're collapsing the spread between the lending rates and the borrowing rates. And that spread today in the economy is very high. Like, that's the net interest margin that you have, you know, of banks. That's approximately 3% on the global economy, right? And so we think of our mission at collapsing that cost of trust, right? Collapsing the... Spread between the lending rate and the borrowing rate to have cheap funding. And obviously, the only way to do this is through, like, open infrastructure and, like, this core protocol Morpho that is, like, built on top that can aggregate intents of both parties.

11:23我想補充 Paul 剛剛說的。現在真正發生的事是，我們已經達到足夠的擴展性、可用性和可靠性，可以徹底改變全球商業運作的方式。過去信任的建立都是自上而下、命令與控制的體系。Can I just follow on what Paul said? What's really going on here is that we are— At the point where we're scalable and usable and reliable enough so that we can transform how business works on this planet. Essentially, the way trust has worked is top-down command and control systems.

11:43去中心化信任與新經濟基礎

11:43你有權威機構，也有受信任的第三方，而我們正在取代這種有時會被濫用、有時會變得專斷的信任機制，這種機制通常只讓中心化的控制方受益，而不是我們其他人。所以我們現在用一種全新的信任形式來取代它。Satoshi 發明了最強大的信任形式，去中心化信任，現在我們能夠吸引政府和金融機構的注意，他們也意識到這其實很好，非常有力量。我們可以不再只是你的受信任對手方，不需要一堆法規來確保我們不會偷你的錢，而是可以把去中心化協議的信任注入其中。You got authorities, you got trusted third parties, and we are replacing that kind of trust, which is somewhat abused at times, somewhat capricious at times, and generally rewards the centralized controlling parties more than all the rest of us. And so we're replacing that with a new form of trust. Satoshi invented the most powerful form of trust, decentralized trust, and now we've attracted the attention of governments and financial institutions, and they recognize that, hey, this is good. This is really powerful. We can, instead of being your trusted counterparty with all sorts of regulations to make sure that we don't steal your money, we can imbue the trust of a decentralized protocol.

12:34在像 Morpho 這樣的市場型系統中，你是和你的同儕對手方互動，而不是跟莊家對賭。大家都知道，莊家永遠贏，所以我們其實正邁向一個更加去中心化的經濟體系。我完全同意，而且這也讓這些系統不再把權力交給另一方。現在他們有基礎設施可以這麼做，這其實是一個很大的突破。In market-based systems like Morpho, where you're interacting with your peer counterparties rather than the house. As we all know, the house always wins, and essentially we're moving into a much more decentralized economy. No, I absolutely agree. And it's also just creating these systems that are not sort of giving the power to the other side and— The fact they now have the infrastructure to do so is a pretty big unlock.

13:02Bit Digital 的雙主軸策略

13:02我有個問題想問 Sam，Bit Digital 對我來說是個很有趣的案例。你可以多介紹一下你們的架構嗎？你們和 WhiteFiber 的合作是怎麼運作的？為什麼這跟一般大家聽過的傳統 e-treasury 公司不一樣？I do have a question for Sam before we kind of get to some of the other stuff around the economic activity on Ethereum, but Bit Digital to me is a very interesting sort of approach to the space. Could you tell us more about how you're set up, how does it work with WhiteFiber, and why is it different than just a traditional e-treasury company that others may have heard of?

13:19Bit Digital 是一家在 Nasdaq 上市的公司，結構非常簡單，資產負債表上只有兩個主要項目：一個是一堆 Ethereum，另一個是 WhiteFiber 這家公司 60% 的控股權，WhiteFiber 去年也在 Nasdaq 上市。WhiteFiber 是一家純 AI 基礎設施公司，有雲端業務，也有資料中心的機櫃出租業務，未來幾年合約金額超過十億美元。我們這樣定位自己，是因為我們不只是單純累積 ETH 放在帳上，我們認為那不是產生 alpha 的方式，也不是一份全職工作。所以我們覺得必須要有營運型業務，而 WhiteFiber 就非常成功，服務 AI 經濟。Yes, so Bit Digital is a public listed company on NASDAQ, and it's a very simple company. It's just two line items on its balance sheet. It's a bunch of Ethereum. That's the first line item. The second line item is a 60% controlling stake of a company called WhiteFiber that IPO'd last year also on NASDAQ. And WhiteFiber is a pure-play AI infrastructure company. It has a cloud business, a very successful one. It has a very successful colocation business on the data center side, servicing more than a billion dollars worth of contracts over the next few years. So the reason why we positioned ourselves this way is because we're not in the business of just accumulating ETH and putting it on our balance sheet.

14:05我們認為單純持有 ETH 並不是產生超額報酬的姿態，也不認為那是一份全職工作。所以我們覺得要有營運型業務，而 WhiteFiber 就是我們非常成功的案例，服務 AI 經濟。這很重要，因為我所知沒有任何一家公開公司能經濟上代表 AI 和 Ethereum 的融合，而這兩者未來一定會有巨大交集。希望等下有機會再深入聊這個。這就是我們的架構，我認為我們的做法很獨特。我們對純 DATs 這個分類有批評，所以才會轉型。我甚至希望這個分類根本沒被發明過，因為那是個糟糕的衡量方式，但現實就是如此。We think. That that is not an alpha-producing posture, and we don't think that's actually a full-time job as well. So we felt that it's important to have an operating business as well, and we have an incredibly successful one through White Fiber, and it is servicing. The AI economy. And that's really important because there's absolutely no company, no public company in the world that I know of that represents economically the convergence of artificial intelligence and Ethereum, which will eventually intersect in a huge way. And hopefully there'll be a moment to get into that later. So that's how we've set ourselves up. I think we're pretty unique in that manner. We do have our criticism of pure-play DATs. That's why we've sort of moved away from that category. I wish that category never was invented. I think that's a terrible category and a bad way to measure yourself. But here we are.

15:14純 DATs 與資產生產力的爭論

15:14不好意思，我得插個話。這裡可能會有點緊張，其實沒有啦。我非常尊重 Sam 和他們的商業模式。我認為 AI、Ether 和去中心化協議的結合是非常強大的方向，所以我完全理解他的說法。但我認為純粹的 DATs，只要選對代幣，對股東和生態系其實非常有價值。這是基於你必須主動部署資本來提升資產價值，還是說你需要機構買家，這是最簡單的需求來源？其實是資產的生產力帶來收益或 alpha，或是讓生態系成長。Sorry, I have to jump in. There's going to be some tension. No tension. I have a huge amount of respect for Sam and their business model. I think the marriage of AI and Ether and decentralized protocols is a very powerful direction. So I fully understand what he's saying, but I do believe that pure... Play DATs that choose the right token are incredibly valuable for their shareholders and for the ecosystem that they operate in. Is it with the assumption that you have to actively deploy capital to increase the asset value, or just the fact that you need an institutional buyer for this, and this is the easiest way to get that demand? It's the productivity of those assets that gets you that yield or alpha, or just the ecosystem to grow.

16:10Joe，我想稍微挑戰一下你的看法。讓我先說一句再讓你挑戰。以 SharpLink 和我們 BMNR 的朋友為例，我們專注於從質押協議中獲取收益，有一種無風險收益可以相對容易地捕捉到。除此之外，我們還能做一些低風險的事，比如把資產放在合格託管機構裡，還有其他事情可以做，例如投資那些和 Ethereum 使命一致、能提升 Ether 代幣價值、壯大 Ethereum 社群的公司。這些都是非常主動的行動，我們有十個全職頂尖人才在做這些事。目標是讓股東能以被動方式增加他們持有的 ETH 數量，因為我們是在為股東努力，讓他們實際掌控更多 ETH。這其實是下一代經濟的開端，可能會持續數十年甚至數百年。擁有大量高能貨幣、抵押品貨幣 ether，未來我們能做多大的生意？從個人角度來說，參與下一代高能貨幣，對股東來說會非常有利。But Joe, I would challenge that a little bit. So if you believe there's— Let me say something first before you challenge it. So, for SharpLink and for our friends at BMNR, we are focused on... collecting yield from staking into the protocol. So there's a risk-free yield that we can capture relatively easily. There are things that we can do over and above that risk-free yield that are very low risk, sitting in qualified custodians. And there are other things that we can do. In terms of investing in companies that are aligned with the Ethereum mission, that are designed to grow the value of the Ether token, grow the size of the Ethereum community. And so all of that is just really active activity, and we have 10 people with full-time jobs, really the best and the brightest people who— who do a great job on that. And the idea is that if you can grow the amount of ether that you are exposed to in a sort of passive way from the shareholder's perspective, because we are working for the shareholder to grow how much ETH you're effectively in control of. This is really the start of the next generation economy, which is going to last decades or centuries, who knows. And so having a giant pile of the highest powered money, collateral money, ether, what will we be able to do in terms of giant businesses in the future, and From a personal perspective, being exposed to the next generation of highest powered money is going to be very good for the shareholders.

18:06DATs 折價與市場觀點

18:06我覺得你們其實並沒有立場對立。其實我也不會反對，Ethereum 是很棒的技術，謝謝 Joe 讓它誕生。我覺得問題在於這些 DATs 目前是以低於資產淨值（NAV）交易，所以市場已經對這個價值做出判斷，這和 ether 代幣的價格有關。只是要說清楚，我不是反對 ETH 的價值。Ethereum 透過原子交換技術解決了 S 型曲線問題，這非常強大，直接去除了中間人。我以前是銀行家和律師，算是終極中間人，非常清楚自己價值有多低，十年來都在做那些事。當 Ethereum 出現時，我就意識到銀行和律師這些職業都變得多餘，所以我才加入這個運動。但我對純 DATs 的看法是，市場已經決定我們是折價交易。不過如果把 WhiteFiber 拿掉，Bit Digital 其實是溢價的。只是這個衡量標準很難用，因為那只是某一時點的市場觀點，未來還是會循環變動。I mean, I don't think you're on different sides at all. Yeah, I don't argue against the—I mean, Ethereum is an incredible technology. Thank you for bringing it to life, Joe. I think... I think the issue is that these DATs are trading at a discount to NAV, and so the markets are making their decision on the value of that. Correlated with the ether token. Fair, but— Just to be clear, I don't argue against the value of ETH. Ethereum solves for S-curve through atomic swap technology. That is very powerful. That takes away the middleman. I used to be a banker and a lawyer, so I was the ultimate middleman. And I'm very aware of how useless my value was and what I was doing for like a decade being involved in those professions, and when— When Ethereum came out, I realized that my professions in banking and as a lawyer was redundant, and that's why I joined your movement. But my argument about the pure play DAT is just that the markets have made up their mind that we're trading at a discount. But digital trades at a premium if you remove the white fiber aspect. But it's just a difficult— yardstick, I think, to be measured in that front, because that's the view in a slice of time. So it's likely to cycle. Yeah.

19:34DATs、資產分發與機構進場

19:34我也想補充一下我的看法，反正都聊到這了。我認為就算是純 DATs，也可以被視為一種代幣化的對偶，純粹從投資人分發的角度來看。我們有這麼多加密資產，其實都可以在傳統金融市場上分發給更廣泛的投資人。即使是最簡單、什麼都不做的 DAT，只要能讓更多投資人參與，擴大投資人基礎，本身就是有價值的。就像傳統金融把資產上鏈，我們也可以透過 DATs 把資產帶到他們的市場，這本身就有價值。不過這不是今天這場討論的主題。I guess maybe to add my perspective on that, because why not? I think the way I like to think about that, even the pure player DATs, is the dual of tokenization. Like purely from an investor distribution perspective. We have all those crypto assets that, you know, could be distributed to broader audiences on TradFi marketplaces, right? And so just purely the most simple, like, you know, stupid DApp that does not do anything, just the fact that it's available to a broader set of investors to allow for broader investor distribution, in my sense, is valuable, right, from a purely, like, expansion of the investor set. So just like— You know, TradFi brings their assets on-chain through tokenization. We can bring our assets to their markets through DATs, and I think this in itself is valuable. But I don't think the panel is about that.

20:22你剛剛說的其實很有意思，這也是我下一個問題。你們現在正處於機構主動找上門、想了解怎麼上鏈的黃金位置。我很好奇你們平常和機構對話時，最常見的主題是什麼？他們只是想要更高的收益，還是終於有明確的上鏈應用可以做，這才吸引他們？還是說市場變大了？到底是什麼讓他們興奮？其實有很多原因，我不能全說，但可以分享的是：現在機構普遍信任區塊鏈作為結算層，他們都相信開放金融體系在區塊鏈上結算的願景已經大到無法忽視，這一定會發生，只是時間問題。Yeah, so, but what you said is actually very interesting because that was sort of my next question, which is you are now in the perfect sort of center of institutions coming to you wanting to figure out what they can do on-chain, and I'd love to kind of understand what is something common. In terms of the conversations you're having, are they just excited about more yield and that's kind of the only thing that matters? Are they excited about just finally having some obvious thing that they can do on-chain and that's why they're interested? Or is it just that there's a bigger market now? Like, what stands out and why is it exciting to them? Yeah, a lot of things. Not much I can talk about, but what I can share: institutions in general now trust. Blockchain as a settlement layer, they all believe in the promise of the open— I mean, the promise of the open financial system settling on blockchain is too big to fail. Like, it is going to happen. It's just a matter of time.

21:13機構如何看待 DeFi 與鏈上分發

21:13他們認為自己的角色如下，尤其是他們如何看待 DeFi：他們想把區塊鏈和 DeFi 當作一種技術來用。這些人本來就是資產管理人，做這行幾十年了，比多數加密圈的人都懂。他們想用區塊鏈做兩件事：一是掌控，二是網路效應。掌控對他們來說，就是能升級後端、升級軟體，提供 24/7 的金融產品，能自己控風險、控利率、控合規，不用依賴加密原生團隊來幫他們管資產。他們不想投資由 DeFi 原生團隊管理的協議，而是想自己掌控 DeFi 協議。So what they see their role in this is the following, and how they approach DeFi specifically is the following. They want to use blockchain and DeFi as a technology, right? Those guys are asset managers. They've been doing this for— Decades and decades, they know this thing much better than most crypto people, right? However, they want to use the chain for two things: control and network, right? Control for them is the ability to upgrade their backend, upgrade their software in order to offer financial products that are, you know, 24/7, where they can control the risk, they can control the rate, they can control the compliance, and they, you know, are capable of Having, like, interest rate that are paid every second and that are, on which they don't, like, have to rely on crypto-native people to manage their assets for them. They're not interested in investing in DeFi protocols that are managed by, like, DeFi natives. They're interested in taking control of the DeFi protocol.

22:14所以這其實你也可以說在鏈外用現代後端（像 Rust）也能做到。但對他們來說，真正的商業價值是網路效應，也就是分發。鏈上資產越來越多，他們看到所有分銷商都在往鏈上走，每一家 fintech 未來三年內的路線圖都是全面上鏈，全部都要用自託管錢包、鏈上結算。分發正在鏈上發生，作為資產管理人或金融機構，你沒有選擇，錢和生意都會在這裡。所以他們的策略是：我們要上鏈、掌控金融原語，並搶佔分發通路。And so, so that's the first thing. And so that's basically, you could argue, you could do outside of the chain, right? Like in a, you know, a modern backend like Rust, whatever. The business value for them is the network effect, like it's the distribution. You have more and more assets on chain, right? They see all the distributors that I've been referring to there, or like— Every single fintech has a roadmap in the next three years to move entirely on-chain, like every single one of them, right? They're all moving to self-custodial wallets. They're all moving to their settlement on-chain. And so the distribution is coming on-chain. And so as a Nasdaq manager, as a financial institution, you don't have the choice. This is where the money is going to be. This is where the business is going to be. And so their approach is Hey, we're gonna come on-chain, we're gonna take control of those financial primitives, and we are gonna try to collect the distribution and where it lands, right?

23:04那實際上是什麼意思？因為這聽起來有點抽象。第一步就是代幣化，把產品上鏈，確保自己在分銷商都上鏈的地方被分發。不過對我來說，代幣化有點像 Frankenstein，它只是手段，不是目的本身。沒錯，這就是重點。So what does that mean concretely? Because that's a bit abstract, right? First, it starts with tokenization. I bring my products on-chain and try to make sure I'm distributed where the distributors are coming on-chain. But tokenization, to me, it's a bit like a Frankenstein, right? Like... This is a means to an end, not the actual. Yeah, yeah, exactly.

23:23基金結構與鏈上經濟的下一步

23:23就像你現在有這麼現代的技術，基本上你只是把基金的股份代幣化，但這個基金本身還是運行在比 Vitalik 還沒出生時就建立的基礎設施上。你把錢送到鏈上，然後它又進入這個非常老舊的基礎設施裡。所以我們認為，必須把整個基金結構、整個貸款發起流程都直接在鏈上重建。這就是我們所說的 vaults（金庫），下一步就是你要完全在鏈上、以非託管或合規的方式運行你的基金，把借款人和貸款發起流程都帶到鏈上等等。他們也意識到這一點，所以這就是他們的下一步：如何開始利用鏈上經濟，不只是當作分發管道，而是讓電腦開始管理鏈上基金，開始用你的代幣化資產作為抵押品來借款等等。It's just like you have this very modern technology that basically you just, like, tokenize the share of a fund, but the fund itself still runs on infrastructure that was built before Vitalik was born, right? And so you basically send the money on-chain, and then it goes into this, like, very old infrastructure, and so. We think you have to rebuild the entirety of the fund structure, the entirety of the origination on-chain directly, right? And that's what we call vaults, right, basically. It's like the next step is like you're going to run your fund entirely on-chain in a non-custodial way or in a regulated way, and you're going to bring borrowers and origination on-chain, et cetera. And they realize this as well. So this is the next step for them, is like, hey, how can you start leveraging the on-chain economy, not just as distribution, but the computer to start managing funds on-chain, to start using your tokenized assets as collateral to borrow money, et cetera, et cetera.

24:14AI、代理經濟與以太坊的角色

24:14太棒了。我們還有五分鐘，我有三個很重要的問題，所以我們要盡量簡潔地回答。我先從 Sam 開始，因為我想聽聽你們三位對這些問題的看法。我的問題是，特別是 WhiteFiber 整合到 Bit Digital 的策略後，我很好奇你怎麼看 AI 與加密貨幣的重疊，像是對穩定幣、代理支付的意義，以及你對未來最興奮的是什麼？Awesome. All right, we have five minutes, and I have three really important questions, so we're gonna try to be concise with our answers. And I'm gonna start with Sam because I want all three of your opinions on a bunch of these things. So the question I have for Sam is, well, especially with the WhiteFiber integration to kind of the strategy of digital, I'm kind of curious to see how you think about the overlap of AI with crypto in terms of just kind of what does it mean for stablecoin, agentic payments, and what excites you about that future.

24:44我們就從這個開始。這其實是個很大的主題，但我會簡短回答。代理需要運算能力來思考，也需要有支付工具。我認為這正是 Ethereum 可以發揮巨大作用的地方。我覺得在 Ethereum 和 ETH 世界裡會出現超新星，因為代理經濟是真實存在的。我希望大家都聽清楚，未來幾年我們的生活大多都會跟代理互動。如果你想想看，人工智慧其實就是機器原生的智慧，而 Ethereum 是機器原生的貨幣，這兩者語言非常相近。銀行和信用卡公司這些東西是為人類設計的，並不是為代理設計的。所以 ETH 有很棒的機會成為代理支付的原生、自然選擇。We're going to start with that. Well, so that is a huge topic. I'll be concise, however. Yeah, agents need compute to think, and agents also need something to pay with. And I think that's obviously where Ethereum can play a huge role. I think there's going to be a supernova in the Ethereum and ETH world because the agentic economy is a real thing. And I hope everybody here listens to this because in the next few years, that's basically what our lives will be mostly dealing with agents. And so, if you think about it, artificial intelligence is basically machine native intelligence, and Ethereum is machine native money. And these are very similar languages. And banks and credit card companies, those things were built for humans. And they weren't really built for agents. And so there is an incredible opportunity for ETH to position itself to be the native and organic and natural go-to for agents to be making payments.

25:53如果你看到這些機器都上線了，過去一年每場會議都在談怎麼讓人類參與 Ethereum。其實我現在已經不在乎這個了，我要讓機器參與 Ethereum。這個規模大太多了，是百萬倍的機會。機器對機器，他們需要人類退出，而 Ethereum 就能做到這點，因為 Ethereum 解決了託管問題，把中間人拿掉，把我這種角色拿掉，讓機器彼此直接溝通。我覺得這是個很棒的機會，這就是我興奮的地方，而且我知道我說的沒錯。未來會變得非常明顯，只是現在還不那麼明顯。And so if you see all these machines coming online, you know, in the past, last year, in every single conference, it was about getting humans involved in Ethereum. Actually, I don't care about that anymore. I want machines to get involved in Ethereum. That's a, that's a much bigger number. That's a million-x opportunity. So machine to machines, they need humans out of the way, and you have that with Ethereum because Ethereum solves for escrow. Takes out the middleman, takes out what I used to be, and it just speaks to each other. And I think that's really an incredible opportunity. So that's where I'm excited about, and I know I'm right. It's going to be really obvious in the future, but it's not so obvious now.

26:40以太坊價值累積與機器智慧經濟

26:40我完全同意。接下來想問 Joe 和 Paul。我可以插一句嗎？我會問這個問題，但你們也可以把剛剛的內容融合進來，因為這是延伸。現在機構進場已經變成常態，他們本來就會賺錢，只是換個基礎設施而已。那你們怎麼看未來幾年 ETH 這個代幣本身的價值累積？很想聽你和 Paul 的看法。No, I absolutely agree. Kind of a question for Joe and Paul. Can I jump in on that one? I'll ask the question, but I think you can choose to blend it in because it adds on to it. Like, one of the things I'm curious about is, as we kind of hear institutions coming in, one of the common themes that I feel like becomes a given is that they know how to make money already. They're just doing it in a new rail because they're thinking of it as infrastructure. So how are you going to think about the next few years of what does it mean for ETH, the token, and the value accrual to ETH? We'd love to kind of get your and Paul's view on this too. Okay.

27:09我可以先談一下 AI 嗎？雖然我剛剛說了 AI，但其實我不太喜歡「人工智慧」這個詞。我不會把搜尋叫做「人工搜尋」。基本上，機器智慧讓我們能夠存取人類所有的智慧、最佳實踐、指導、教學等等。我真的認為，人類會是人機智慧經濟演化的核心。這對我們來說，會反映在我們的 MetaMask 金融服務系統裡。我們必須把使用者體驗做得正確又愉悅，然後把機器智慧內建進系統，讓每個人都能理解這個很複雜的技術。機器智慧就像是地球生活的使用手冊，我認為它會讓經濟以人類為中心地大幅加速。我覺得我們應該對機器智慧保持正面態度。Can I talk a little AI first? Please. So, so first, despite the fact that I just said AI, I don't really like the term artificial intelligence. I don't call search artificial search. Essentially, machine intelligence enables us all to— Access the sum total wisdom of humanity, best practices, mentoring, tutoring, etc. And so I really think that humanity will be in the center of the evolution of a human-machine intelligence economy. And so where this ramifies for us is in our MetaMask financial services system. We need to get it right and very delightful for the user, but then we build machine intelligence into the system so that everybody can understand what's going on in this pretty complicated technology. And so machine intelligence is a user manual for life on planet Earth, and I think that it's going to supercharge the economy with us at the center of it. Just, I think it's important to be positive about machine intelligence.

28:23那世界體系會走向哪裡？我認為我們正進入一個更去中心化的全球經濟，因為我們現在有足夠的可擴展性。我認為 Layer-1 會非常中立、抗審查、高吞吐量，成為國家級數位資產結算層和主要實體、資產、協議的協調層。Layer-2 和私有許可網路都會開始反映經濟體和國家樣貌。這些模組對企業來說很有用，可以放資產、合作夥伴和使用者進來。Layer-2 和其他系統很適合聯盟或遊戲生態系等。所以我認為這會是世界的架構。所有區塊鏈系統都會流向並經過 Ethereum，未來我們不會再像現在這樣討論 Ethereum、Solana 等協議，就像我們不會討論 TCP/IP 一樣，大家只會用應用程式。那價值會流向哪裡？And where do I think the system of the world is going? I think we're moving into a much more decentralized global economy because We're scalable enough to do that. I think layer one is going to be incredibly neutral, censorship resistant, high throughput, very high throughput, a national digital asset settlement layer and coordination layer for major entities and valuable assets and valuable protocols. I think layer twos and private permission networks are all going to start to reflect what The economies look like and what the nation states look like. These modules are very useful for corporations to put their stuff on it, to put their assets on it, to bring their partners and their users onto it. Layer twos and other systems are good for consortia or gaming ecosystems, etc. So that, I think, is going to be the architecture for the world. All the blockchain systems flow to and through Ethereum, so it's all going to be, we're not going to be talking Ethereum and Solana and other protocols that much, the same way we don't talk TCP/IP and other protocols on the web. We're just going to be using applications. And so where does the value flow to?

29:44有兩個答案。一個是你想聽的：Layer-1 會有很大的競爭，Layer-2 甚至私有許可鏈都會有大量使用、質押、銷毀 Ether。當一切真正啟動、開始大量銷毀 Ether 時，Ether 會有巨大的貨幣溢價，需求會遠大於供給。但從長遠來看，價值流向哪裡？我們正從一個以稀缺為基礎的經濟和社會，轉向以豐盛為基礎的經濟。透過機器智慧和去中心化信任，我們每個人都能做任何想做的事，能創造出只要有注意力就能成長的專案。價值會無所不在，會是分形式擴張的全球經濟。所以 Layer-1 Ether 會有需求，但每個人都能創造自己的魔法網路貨幣，創造自己的價值。Two answers. One, the one that you were looking for is that there's going to be a huge amount of contention at layer one. There's going to be a lot of usage, staking, burning of Ether at layer twos and in even private permissioned chains. So when things get really going, when we start burning lots of Ether, Ether is going to have an enormous monetary premium, and there will be much more demand for ether than supply. But the real, the sort of longitudinal way to think of where the value flows to, we're moving from an economy and a society that is scarcity-based to one that is abundance-based. And so we're, with the use of machine intelligence, with the use of decentralized trust, We're going to all be able to do anything we want. We're going to be able to create projects that grow as big as we can put attention into them. And so the value is going to be everywhere. It's going to be a fractally expanding global economy. So yes, layer one ether will get a bid, but— Everybody will be able to make their own magic internet money and create their own value.

31:01以太坊的迷思與未來定位

31:01最後一題，請大家簡短回答。Ethereum 已經超過十年了，大家都知道它從世界電腦開始，但不同時期進來的人對它的認知都不同。你覺得現在大家對 Ethereum 有哪些普遍的迷思應該重新思考？有哪些觀念該拋棄？我們先請 Paul 回答。Well, my final question to all of you, maybe we can get a quick line on that one, is just Ethereum's been around for over a decade, and we kind of all knew it from the world computer, but people who've kind of come in different years have different version of it. So what widely held belief about Ethereum do you feel like is something people should reconsider now that we've kind of seen a whole... Incredible decade of accumulation around the progress on the project. And what do you think people should unlearn about Ethereum? We'll start with Paul.

31:29對我來說，區塊鏈就是要有開放的基礎設施，金融就是連結人與人，連結彼此的意圖。越開放的基礎設施就能帶來最多的連結。要對所有人最開放，就必須中立；要中立，就必須是最去中心化的層。這就是關鍵：最好的金融原語、最好的結算層、最有競爭力的價格、最深的流動性，最終都來自於開放。開放來自於中立，中立來自於去中心化。我覺得大家還沒意識到這對 Ethereum 定位有多重要。Yeah, I think, again, to me, blockchain is all about having an open infrastructure. And for me, finance is all about connecting people. Like, finance is about, like, connecting intents between people. And the more, the most open infrastructure... will foster the most amount of connectivity, right? And in order to be the most open to everybody, you have to be neutral. In order to be neutral, you have to be the most decentralized layer. So this is really what it boils down to: the best financial primitives, the best settlement layers, the most competitive pricing, the deepest liquidity comes down to openness. Openness comes down to— Neutrality, neutrality comes down to decentralization, and I think people don't realize how important that is for, like, you know, Ethereum, like, positioning in general.

32:19Sam，你覺得大家現在應該重新思考 Ethereum 的什麼？我認為 Ethereum 和加密貨幣整體來說，過去幾年因為追逐價格而有點被污名化。特別是一些金融機構裡的 boomer，對加密貨幣有很負面的看法，一聽到 crypto 這個詞就關閉心門。我現在都用 digital assets 這個詞，效果差不多，但他們就能接受。我覺得世代交替很重要，這裡的大家都已經把加密貨幣納入投資組合了。等到 Gen Z、Gen X、千禧世代掌權，這個過程正在發生，他們會把數位資產和加密貨幣常態化，然後你會看到 Ethereum 的大規模正常化和機構化。這會在未來十年發生，等這些 boomer 退休甚至離世後。Sam, the question is, what do you think people should reconsider about Ethereum now? Well, I think, I think... I think Ethereum and crypto in general, unfortunately, has a bit of a stain. And I think it's really from the past few years of, like, price chasing. And I think there's been a lot of resistance, particularly by boomers that are in certain positions at financial institutions. They just have a dark view of, as soon as you say the word crypto, you could tell. Something shuts down. I use the word digital assets since same thing, right? But they're fine. So I think generationally, you know, everybody here has normalized crypto in their portfolios, and I think once— Gen Z, Gen X even, and millennials, they are in their positions of power, and that's happening now. They'll normalize digital assets or crypto, and then you're going to see massive, a massive movement towards the normalization and institutionalization of Ethereum. And I think that's something that will happen in, I think, over the next 10 years when, you know, these boomers die.

33:32我認為有個很普遍的誤解，是由不同協議、VC、媒體推動的，大家以為有很多競爭系統正在快速崛起，其實他們大部分時間都花在行銷、做迷因幣賭場等娛樂。我欣賞他們的創意，但我們生態系的核心精神是去中心化，是很多獨立實體一起打造公共協議、可信中立的全球基礎設施。所以當有人抱怨 Ethereum Foundation 或技術發展不佳時，其實完全不是這麼回事。大家會指責公開衝突，問 Ethereum 的 CEO 在哪裡？為什麼不拉抬幣價？其實 Ethereum 沒有所謂 CEO，是很多獨立且理念一致的團隊在建設，有明確的流程，有激烈討論和衝突，這才是好事。比起像公司一樣的協議，Ethereum 是嚴格去中心化的協議。去中心化才是我們存在的理由，也是這個產業的起點。So I think, I think there's a widely held misunderstanding that's promulgated by different protocols, VCs, journalists, that there are lots of competing systems that are gaining tremendous traction, and that's because these people are spending. Much of their effort on marketing, they're building meme coin casinos and things like that. So they're actually creating a lot of entertainment. I appreciate what they're doing, but the real core ethos of our ecosystem is about decentralization. It's about lots of independent entities coming together to build. A public good, shared protocol, a credibly neutral infrastructure for the planet. And so when people complain that the Ethereum Foundation isn't doing well or the Ethereum technology isn't doing well, it's simply wrong. People point to the public conflict. Where's the CEO of Ethereum? Why is he not moving the ticker up, right? Sorry, the CEO of Ethereum, where is he? Where's the CEO? Exactly. So Ethereum is being built by a lot of independent aligned entities. There's a very well understood process, and it's great to have vigorous discussion and conflict, etc., rather than having Your protocol, which looks a little more like a company than a rigorously decentralized protocol. Decentralization is why we're here and why this industry got started.

35:16Joe、Paul、Sam，謝謝你們帶來精彩的討論，請大家給他們熱烈掌聲！So Joe, Paul, Sam, thank you for an amazing conversation. Please give a big round of applause.