Praxis 執行長 Dryden Brown：打造後 AGI 時代的新國家
Praxis: A New Nation for the Post-AGI Age
- Dryden Brown Praxis 執行長
- Zaheer Ebtikar Plasma 策略長（主持）
場次摘要
Praxis 執行長 Dryden Brown 介紹結合社群、加密協作與實體城市的新國家構想。他說明人才招募、合作談判及建設規劃，並提出 2027 年迎接首批居民的目標。
值得記下的 5 件事
逐字稿
開場與新國家話題的引介
我在 TOKEN2049 已經參加很多年了，主持過各種主題的討論和座談。老實說，連之前聊迷幻藥、VCI 這些話題，都比不上今天這個最有趣的主題：到底一個新國家的基礎該怎麼建立？很多新加坡的原則，怎麼樣帶回來、讓它真的運作？今天邀請到這個領域的先驅，他很有爭議，但我個人非常欣賞他。讓我們歡迎 Praxis 創辦人 Dryden Brown。I've been at Token for many, many, many years, moderating, doing panels, that sort of thing on a variety of topics. And I can say without a shadow of a doubt that even the conversations about, like, psychedelics and VCIs and all that stuff pales in comparison to, I think, the most interesting conversation, which is how does the foundation of a new country work? You know, a lot of the principles that originated in Singapore, how do we bring that back in a way that can actually work? And it's with someone that is pioneering this space. He's a very controversial person. A lot of people love him, and, you know, I've— Personally, I've been super charmed by Dryden, but without further ado, I want to introduce Dryden Brown, the founder of Praxis.
謝謝你，很高興來到這裡。這是我第一次來新加坡，能親身體驗這個 Lee Kuan Yew 打造的城市真的很酷。這裡本來是沼澤地，地理條件並不優越，但現在卻有這麼多漂亮的大樓、這麼多經濟活動。新加坡就是一個證明：即使在極端條件下，也能從無到有創造出一個國家。Thank you, man. It's great to be here with you. I'm happy to be here. It's my first time in Singapore. It is cool to be here, having read, you know, so much of Lee Kuan Yew and the city he built. And this place is basically like a swamp, right? It's like not like the most geographically blessed place, but, you know, we're in this, like, amazing... Big beautiful building, and there are many beautiful buildings here. And so it's cool to see all the sort of economic activity that they were able to generate. I think Singapore is a very good example of what is possible even under the most extreme circumstances of a country that, like you said, might not have had the most ideal geographic location, but can turn something from nothing.
Praxis 的起心動念與靈感來源
當你開始 Praxis 這個計畫，大概是六、七年前吧？你之前在金融業待過，怎麼會想要做這麼瘋狂又雄心勃勃的事？你有 Paradigm、Fred Ehrsam 等頂級投資人支持，還有一堆來自加密和 AI 領域的大咖。你當初是怎麼思考要打造這個東西？When you kind of started the whole journey of Praxis, this was like six, seven years ago, you ideated. You worked in a bunch of different fields in the financial sector before. How did you come into the world thinking like, I want to go do this crazy ambitious idea. You have the best investors in the world with Paradigm, Fred Ehrsam, you know, a bunch of people from, you know, the big crypto and AI space backing you. How did you think about Wanted to build this.
其實我家族在十八世紀初從愛爾蘭移民到美國，從小我就對美國建國史很著迷。去過 Monticello、華盛頓特區，覺得那種橫渡大西洋、冒險開墾新大陸、建立文明的故事超級吸引人。這種建國精神一直讓我很有感，也讓我開始思考，現代要怎麼做出類似的事情。Well, so my family came here in—well, not here. My family came to America in the early 18th century from Ireland, and I was really interested as a kid in, like, early colonial history, the founding of America. It was really sort of exciting to me. I went to, you know, Monticello and to D.C. and so on, and— I thought that, you know, the idea of being in Europe and crossing the ocean in this super kind of gnarly, hazardous way, getting to this totally wild continent, and then, like, conquering it, settling it, building a civilization, that kind of founding to me was the most exciting thing to pursue, basically.
這種對美國建國的興趣，讓我花很多時間思考現代要怎麼做類似的事。我開始研究 master-planned community（整體規劃社區），雖然從文化或歷史角度看很無聊，像郊區那種刻板印象，但其實可以學到怎麼規模化建設城市、怎麼融資、怎麼發展新城市。This sort of interest in the founding of America, this sort of personal connection to that story, I think propelled me to spend a lot of time thinking about how one might do something analogous today. I basically, I started to learn about master-planned communities, like sort of new city developments. They're kind of boring from like a— You know, like a cultural and sort of historical perspective, they're kind of like the most boring thing. You know, it's like the suburbs or whatever. It's like, you know, the sort of stereotypically boring sort of social organism. But nonetheless, you can learn from master-planned communities how to build scaled infrastructure for cities, how to finance the development of new cities, so on and so forth.
我年輕時有機會去 Pershing Square 跟 Bill Ackman 工作，他投資了很多新城市開發案，像 Howard Hughes 這家公司在德州、內華達、馬里蘭等地蓋城市。那段經歷讓我學到新城市開發的實務細節。另一方面，我也在思考加密貨幣怎麼成為協作機制，讓來自世界各地的人透過網路一起實現共同目標。我覺得加密一定會扮演某種角色，畢竟 Bitcoin 的終極願景就是創造替代性的社會機構，貨幣只是第一步，建立新社會才是最終命運。I had this opportunity to go work for Pershing Square for Bill Ackman when I was a pretty young person, when I was like 18. And he had invested, like, kind of a lot of money in the development of new cities, these master-planned communities through a company called Howard Hughes. We built cities in Texas and Nevada and Maryland and so on. And so through that experience at Pershing, working for Bill, I learned a lot about the sort of practical steps that went into, you know, the development of new cities, basically. And that was sort of one piece. And then on the other hand, I was thinking a lot about how, like, crypto was able to sort of function as a coordination mechanism to engage people from sort of like, you know, vastly different parts of the world towards shared aims using the internet. And I thought somehow that basically there was going to be some role for crypto to play. I mean, like, really the sort of ultimate vision of Bitcoin is the creation of alternate institutions, alternate social institutions, you know, currency being the first. But I think bringing a new society into existence is like a sort of a whole society is the ultimate sort of conclusion, the ultimate destiny perhaps of— of Bitcoin and of, you know, this industry.
所以我開始思考，怎麼用代幣作為協作機制，把新社會實體化在新城市裡。這就是讓我最興奮的地方。And so thinking about how, you know, basically we can use tokens as a coordination mechanism to bring into reality a new society physically instantiated in a new city, that was the sort of exciting thing for me.
從理念到社群：Praxis 的第一步
那你怎麼把這個目標變成現實？大家都喜歡歷史、神學、哲學這些宏大主題，但你怎麼決定第一步要做什麼？And how did you think about actualizing this goal? How did you think about, well, it's a great idea. Everyone loves, like, the kind of history, broader, like, you know, there's aspects of theology, there's aspects of, you know, philosophy, there's aspects of history. How did you think about what's the first step to take when you wanted to go undertake this project?
其實城市都是從人開始的，重點是人、網路效應和文化。所有文化一開始都像是『邪教』，雖然這詞常被負面使用，但本質上就是一群人有不同的世界觀。如果你能圍繞一套獨特的理念建立社群，吸引到有才華的人，這就是新城市的需求來源。Praxis 是在 COVID 期間開始的，那時候世界很瘋狂，大家都覺得需要更有活力地生活，不要整天戴口罩、關在家裡。這些理念讓我們聚集了一群特別的人，這就是實際的第一步。Well, cities all start with people. It's really about people and network effects and culture. And so thinking about how we could create a really differentiated culture, like all cultures start as cults. You know, cult is used typically in a pejorative way, but really what it means is like you have a group of people who have a different frame as to how the world works. They're inhabiting a different frame. And, you know, if you're able to create basically, like a community around a set of ideas that are really differentiated and contain some core insight into how the world works or how to live a better life, then you can start to build a lot of energy around this idea. And so for us, you know, starting Praxis during COVID, it was really like manic, insane time. You know, this sort of the woke stuff is, is— You know, perhaps over-discussed, but it really was completely insane, and the responses to COVID were insane, and so on. And so there was this sort of intuition that we needed to be more in touch with, you know, with our, with our, like, you know, sense of sort of intuitive health, that we needed to live more vital. sort of intense lives and not, like, wear the mask and, you know, sit inside all day on our computers and so on and get out, you know, be really active. And I think that there are, like, you know, deeper philosophical ideas that we could sort of, you know, get into that connect to really the core and the birthplace of Western civilization. But basically building a community around a set of ideas allowed us to coalesce a really talented kind of special group of people. That functioned as the sort of demand for this new city. So that was the sort of practical first step. It was a set of ideas that attracted a bunch of people from around the world that then, you know, were excited about moving.
文化塑造與早期成員的選擇
你可以挑選最早的參與者，等於在策劃你想要的社會。像我有個朋友 Christian Angermayer，他常說黃金時代又要來了，大家都想活得更健康、更長壽、更有意義，這些人通常比較偏向科技樂觀主義。你們這個群體的文化認同是怎麼形成的？Yeah, I suppose in curating even the kind of society that you want to build in a way where you get to pick your earliest adopters, the earliest people that can go in and you know, be a part of the society. I'm good friends with Christian Angermayer, who I know you know as well, and he always talks to me about this kind of golden age period that he believes is coming up again, where people want to live longer lives, healthier lives, more fulfilling lives, and they're usually people who might drift towards a techno-optimist kind of point of view. How did, how did the— framing of your, you know, kind of collective group end up, I guess, shaping the cultural identity of Praxis.
其實我們一開始是從理念出發，不是從人出發。我們有一套對未來的信念，然後自然就有一群人被這些想法吸引過來。說真的，我們就是很真誠地思考自己想要什麼樣的未來，然後遇到志同道合的人。That's an interesting question. I mean, I guess, I think we really started with the ideas, not the people. We started with a set of convictions that we had about what the future should look like, and then there were people who just gravitated towards those ideas. So I would say, like— In a totally, like, earnest, like non-sort of cynical way, we approached this problem. We just thought about what we thought was, like, interesting and exciting and the way we wanted the future to look, and then we just met people who agreed.
選址與政府合作的挑戰
現在你們已經宣布 Praxis 的總部地點，紐約時報也有報導。你怎麼選擇落腳點？又怎麼說服當地政府？And now, I mean, we've gotten to the point where, you know, you recently announced. You know, the location of where Praxis will be headquartered, where the new kind of civilization will start. The New York Times covered it. How do you think about, you know, where you wanted to locate? How did you end up convincing this government? I mean, there's so many questions I want to get into. Yeah, right.
我們這幾年累積了一個很強大的社群。很多加密社群都很短線，但我們這個計畫需要很深的承諾，像是搬到地球另一端，不是什麼四年鎖倉而已。我們的成員很多在 AI、深科技領域都很厲害，這不是巧合，因為這些人都在思考世界應該怎麼走。現在我們有大約 16 萬人，很多都是全球最成功的人，他們都想一起創建新城市。對任何國家來說，這種人才和數十億甚至數百億美元的外資都很有吸引力。我們已經募到不少資金，可以馬上投入當地經濟。我們也真的很喜歡我們花時間的國家，像烏拉圭有很棒的藝術和文化場景、自然環境也很美。我們對這地方的熱情，讓我們能在全球舞台上推廣它，吸引那些最有價值、最能受益於 AI 財富創造的人才。Well, I mean, so, you know, as you mentioned, we started the project, you know, a few years ago now, and so over that period of time, we were able to build a really intense— Sort of loyal community. I think a lot of communities in crypto tend to be fairly, you know, mercenary. But, you know, our project is about, you know, an action that takes, like, a really deep level of commitment, like uprooting yourself, moving to the other side of the world. And so it's not a four-year lockup. Yeah, yeah, yeah, exactly, yeah. So we, you know, we have this really kind of hardcore group of people. Who, like, just happened to have, I think, done pretty well over the last years. Many people, you know, in AI, in the labs and, you know, in the deep tech companies and so on. And I think that's like, it's sort of not a coincidence. I think these are like really sharp, kind of switched-on people who are thinking about big, you know, big problems and how the world should be. And so, in any case. We have a very large number of people, about 160,000 people, many of whom are some of the, you know, most successful, you know, people in the world who all want to start a new city together. And so if you're, if you're a, you know, a government, if you're a country, if you're a, you know, head of state, it's really quite attractive to you to get that talent and to get, you know, billions, potentially tens of billions of dollars of foreign direct investment. We've raised quite a bit of money already, so we're able to deploy. You know, cash pretty immediately into these economies. And so I think the other thing is, too, the countries that, you know, that we're spending time in, we really have like a deep affinity for, and we just like a lot, you know? And so, you know, in Uruguay, where, you know, we've spent like a huge amount of time, there's an amazing existing art and culture scene. It's just like incredibly beautiful. The natural beauty is awesome. And so I think, like, our sort of genuine, like, affection for this place gives us the ability to promote it on, you know, maybe on the world stage to, like, a new set of people, probably the people that are the most valuable to any country in the world, the people that are going to be the economic beneficiaries of this big, like, AI wealth creation event.
AI 時代的人才遷徙與新城市願景
Peter Thiel 最近也說他在考慮南美洲南部。你怎麼看這波人才遷徙？未來幾年會有什麼趨勢？Right. I mean, Peter Thiel recently announced that he's also considering— You know, the southern part of, you know, the southern continent in South America. How do you think about, I suppose, you know, this migration that's going to end up happening now with maybe the first, you know, pilgrims, if you want to call them that, that are moving down to Praxis in, you know, what's now known as Uruguay. How do you think about The next kind of trend, like what do you see in terms of the gradual shift of people moving to Praxis over the next couple of years?
我們其實是很 hardcore 的 AGI 派，認為 AI 很快會取代大量工作，速度比大家想像的還快。這會造成 K 型經濟分化，掌握 AI stack 的人會賺到瘋狂的錢，另一邊的人則會失業、很難過日子。像紐約、洛杉磯、舊金山這種以勞動力市場為主的城市，未來可能會瓦解，變得不適合居住。那些過得很好的 AI 人才，會想搬到安全又漂亮、能夠重新建構社會和經濟的新地方。我們不只想吸引最有錢的 AI 人才，更想要全世界最有創造力的人來，讓城市變得有文化、有趣、好玩。我們已經有很多這樣的人，包括創業家、藝術家、音樂家、設計師等，會參加 Praxis Fellowship 成為第一批搬進城市的人，還有一些比較有錢的成員會成為首批購屋者。Yeah. Well, I mean, so like super big picture, like zooming out, we're really hardcore AGI-pilled, and we think that AI is actually going to take a pretty huge number of jobs, like more quickly than people appreciate, and there are a few... There are a few things that'll happen as a consequence if that happens. One is, you know, the sort of K-shaped economy story is really going to play out, and there are going to be these just enormous sort of, like, winners in this story. Some people, the people who, you know, own the AI stack, are going to make an insane amount of money. At the same time, you know, people on the other side of that equation are, you know, probably going to lose their jobs, and it's going to be fairly difficult for them. And what that means is that places like New York, Los Angeles, San Francisco, cities that primarily function as liquid labor markets are going to basically disintegrate and be not very pleasant places to live. Right. And so if you're doing super well, you know, then you're probably going to want to move to somewhere like safe and beautiful and, and frankly, like, you're going to want to move somewhere that That basically can be reconstructed socially and economically around that new reality. Another thing that that means that we're fairly excited about is basically there are all these people who are the most talented creative people in the world, who make New York, who make LA, who make Paris amazing places to live. And so. The thing that we're excited about beyond, you know, merely attracting, you know, the sort of wealthiest AI people in the world is getting the most talented creative people in the world into our city to make it like a rich, culturally awesome, fun place to live. And so, anyway, we have a bunch of those people that are moving, basically. We have a bunch of, like, young, talented creative people. Some of whom are starting very interesting companies, some like hard tech companies, crypto companies, AI companies, but also super talented artists, musicians, painters, fashion designers, so on and so forth, that are going to participate in a Praxis fellowship and be the first people who move to the city. And then we have a bunch of our sort of wealthier people that are going to be the first homebuyers over the next year.
落地進度與未來展望
那你們未來五到十年預計會有多少人搬到南美洲？Yeah, and I suppose, like, what is the cadence that you're thinking about maybe across the next five, ten years of the amount of people that you, you know, want to get on, you know, in, you know, Southern America?
具體來說，2027 年夏天會有一批人以 Praxis Fellowship 身分搬進我們和開發夥伴蓋好的第一批建築，七月完工、八月入住，然後很快就會開始賣房子，逐步擴大。這一切真的很瘋狂，想當初我們還在紐約，很多人都說這是天方夜譚，沒想到不到十年就實現了，真的很厲害。這個實驗未來一定會引發更多關注，不管是好是壞。Yeah, I mean, so concretely, we have a group of people moving as part of the Praxis Fellowship in the summer of 2027. Yeah, so it's coming up very soon. They're moving into our first buildings that, you know, we built with our development partner. So those are going to be completed in July. People will move in in August. We'll do a little bit of furnishing and so on. And then we're going to start selling homes shortly thereafter. So soon. Gradually. I mean, it's so crazy. I mean, you know, we're at time now, but it's so crazy that— You know, when I first started this idea, we were in New York, you know, hanging out, and there's a lot of naysayers, a lot of people saying, like, you know what, like, this is a crazy idea. How is it going to materialize? It did not take that much time for this to actually materialize, which is the craziest part. Like, realistically, you know, how long, like, you ask anyone in the world how long it would take to do this. I would say under a decade is like an unbelievable feat. So, you know, huge hats off to you. Honestly, I can't, I can't say enough how much of a fun experiment it's been to watch so far, and how much interest it's going to get, you know, both good and bad, in the next coming years.
結語：大膽構想的實踐
有時候大膽的想法很難讓人具體想像，但如果你真的很認真思考、努力去做，有時候真的能實現。謝謝 Dryden 來到現場，跟大家分享 Praxis 的一切。這真的是一個超級巨大的計畫，歡迎大家多多關注 Praxis！Yeah, I mean, I think sometimes ideas are really big and they're hard for people to think about concretely, but You know, if you want to work on something really big and you think really hard about it, sometimes there are ways to make, you know, make these things happen. So. Fully, fully. Well, thank you so much, Shrider, for having, you know, coming here and, you know, showing the audience and explaining everything that you've been working on. It's a huge pleasure. Thank you guys for listening. Please check out Praxis. It's a huge, huge, huge undertaking. Cool. Thank you all.
