加密創投新領域：資產代幣化與 AI 交集引領資金流向

0:00開場與嘉賓介紹

0:00大家好，感謝各位來到現場。我們今天有一個很棒的座談小組。先自我介紹一下，我是 Doug，來自 CMT Digital。我們是一家總部設在美國的創投公司，背後有來自芝加哥、擁有 30 年歷史的交易公司支持，這也影響了我們對創投投資的思維方式。今天我邀請了三位同行一起參與，請他們也自我介紹一下，先從 Steve 開始吧。請簡單介紹一下你自己和你的公司。Great, thanks everyone for coming down. We got a great panel here. A way of introduction, I'm Doug. I'm from CMT Digital. We're a VC firm based out of the U.S. with the backing of a 30-year-old trading firm out of Chicago, and that informs how we think about venture investing. I'm joined by three of my peers today who I'll maybe do a round of introductions as well, maybe starting with Steve. Just tell us a little bit about yourself and your firm. Okay.

0:35Neoclassic Capital 是一家資產投資公司，總部設在邁阿密和紐約，成立兩年了。在這之前，我在一家名為 BlockTower Capital 的加密避險基金工作了五年。再更早之前，我在新加坡和東京的高盛擔任投資組合經理，大約十年。Neoclassic Capital is an asset investment firm based in Miami and New York. It's been two years. Before that, I worked at a crypto hedge fund called BlockTower Capital for five years. Before that, I was at Goldman Sachs here in Singapore and Tokyo for about 10 years as a portfolio manager.

0:53大家好，我是 Akshat Vaidya。我經營 Maelstrom，這基本上是 Arthur Hayes 的家族辦公室。Hey guys, my name is Akshat Vaidya. I run Maelstrom, which is effectively the family office of Arthur Hayes.

1:00大家好，我是 Min，我經營一家叫 Ethereal Ventures 的公司，這是由 ConsenSys 前投資團隊成立的。我一開始是做機構投資人，也曾在英國創辦過支付新創。所以我對金融服務產業非常看好，也很高興看到這一切逐漸成形。我同時也很自豪自己是新加坡人，很開心歡迎大家來到新加坡。Hi everyone, I'm Min, and I run a firm called Ethereal Ventures, which is set up by the former investment team of ConsenSys. I started my career as an institutional investor and built a payments startup in the UK. So, you know, very bullish and long-term career in financial services, and great to see it all come together. I'm also proudly Singaporean, so, you know, glad to welcome everyone of you to Singapore.

1:27Web3 死亡？產業現況與轉折點

1:27那我們就從一個有趣的問題開始吧——所謂的 Web3 已死。大家都聽過 Chris Dixon 提出的說法，未來所有東西都會上鏈，從儲存、串流到媒體，還有 NFT 忠誠計畫、元宇宙等等，但這些好像都沒有真的實現。所以唱衰的人會說 Web3 已經死了。但你看這個會場還是很滿，大家都還在這裡。我很好奇，你們三位是什麼讓你們還對加密貨幣和數位資產這個產業感到興奮？過去 12 個月有沒有什麼你們特別關注的轉折點？Min 先開始吧。Great. So I think we can start with maybe a juicy question, which is—The supposed death of Web3, right? When you think of, you know, Chris Dixon's framing for how everything will be on-chain, from, you know, storage to streaming to media, you've had NFT loyalty, you've had metaverse. That's never really panned out, I think. And so the haters will say Web3 is dead. But, you know, this room is pretty packed, and, you know, all of you are still here. And so I'm curious for the three of you, you know, what keeps you excited about being in crypto and digital assets? And are there any inflection points over the last, you know, 12 months that maybe you're watching closely? Maybe starting with Min. Sure.

2:15我認為區塊鏈基本上就是一種通用型程式設計技術。這是事實。只要是這種通用型技術，就會有很多實驗，有些會成功，有些不會。我覺得金融服務這個實驗，沒有人能否認它已經成功了，非常非常成功。我認為加密貨幣的使命比以前更重要。問題在於，誰擁有你的錢、你的資料、你在網路上的活動？區塊鏈是讓資金在網路上以無需許可、以使用者為中心方式流動的最佳解決方案。我認為在這個後 agentic、地緣政治動盪的世界，這一點變得更加重要。So I think that blockchains are basically general-purpose programming technology. That's absolutely the case. With anything that's, you know, sort of generalized programming technology, you run lots of experiments. Some experiments work, some experiments don't work. I actually think the financial services experiment, no one can deny that it's worked. Very, very well. And I think the mission of crypto is even more important than before. You know, the question is, who has ownership over your money, your data, your activity on the internet? And blockchains is the best way to sort of move money in a permissionless and also user-centric way in the internet. I think in a sort of post-agentic world with geopolitical volatility around the globe, it's ever more important.

3:06過去這一年我看到的轉折點，有正面的也有負面的。首先是穩定幣，它不再只是加密原生的基礎設施，而是真正的產品，甚至已經不是單純的加密原生工具了。現在連金融科技公司、銀行都在用，這是對這項技術最好的肯定。另外，資產代幣化的普及和需求也很明顯。還有 AI 和加密的交集也開始起飛，這應該會在這場座談中討論更多。我覺得 2025 年 10 月發生的事件也提醒我們，基礎設施還有很多需要強化的地方，要讓使用者更有信心把資金放上鏈。對我們投資人來說，這裡也有很多機會。Some of the inflection points, you know, positive and negative, I would say stablecoins. It's not really just a primitive; it's actually a real product, and it's also not just a crypto primitive anymore. It's a, you know, fintech firms use it. Banks use it. There's no better validation of the technology. I also think, like, tokenized assets, the proliferation of it and the demand for it speaks for itself. And also the intersection of AI and crypto, I think, is actually starting to take flight, and we'll probably discuss it more during this panel. I would say one of the inflection points that is again, an opportunity is, you know, the events of October 2025 shows that we still have quite a lot to build in terms of making the infrastructure anti-fragile and really encouraging more user confidence to deposit funds on-chain. And I think for us as investors, there's an opportunity there too.

4:07產業週期與關鍵應用

4:07對我來說，我會從散戶投資人的角度來回答，因為我 2013、2014 年就是這樣進入這個圈子的。那時候我們整個產業都還在摸索，比特幣的共識機制到底行不行？能不能真的用來交易，或像大家想像的那樣作為價值儲存？那一波牛市，產業就只學到這些。下一個週期，大概 2017、2018 年，就是智慧合約的時代。Ethereum 和其他競爭者大概 2015、2016 年開始做這些概念，17、18 年有一波小牛市，出現一堆基於智慧合約的白皮書。再下一輪，就是 2020 年 COVID 之後的 DeFi summer。最近這一輪，重點變成穩定幣成為受監管、華爾街友善的技術，應用範圍超越過去單純的交易。每個週期我們都只會有一兩個真正跑出來的應用，前沿有一百個想法，最後只要有一兩個成功就夠了。我不覺得每個 NFT 衍生品永續合約都要成功，產業才算成功。Yeah, for me, I would kind of answer it from the perspective of a retail investor, which is how I entered the space in 2013, 2014. You know, at that point in time, I think we were just trying to figure out, as an industry, does the consensus mechanism of Bitcoin even work? Can you use it to transact, as people thought, you know, might be one of the use cases, or, you know, store value? And in that, you know, bull market that was like 2013, 2014, that was basically all that the industry basically gained and learned. In the next cycle, that was like 2017, 18, that time around it was smart contracts, right? Ethereum and its competitors started working on those concepts in like 2015, 2016. There was a little bull market in 17, 18. of white papers that were based on smart contracts. The next round, there was DeFi summer in 2020, right after COVID. Most recently, you know, this cycle was more about the establishment of stablecoins as a regulated, friendly, Wall Street-friendly kind of technology that people can use for use cases beyond what we used to use them for, which is just trading. I think each cycle, we just get one or two things that work. There's a hundred ideas at the frontier. Many of them contribute to that one or two things that work in the end. But all we need is a couple winning use cases each time. I don't think, you know, every random, like, NFT derivative perp concept needs to pan out into something for us to say that we've been successful as an industry.

5:41過去 12 個月我會分成三個階段。第一，PerpDEX（永續合約去中心化交易所）的交易量因為 Hyperliquid 爆發性成長。接下來就是傳統金融資產上鏈，從美伊戰爭爆發、油價劇烈波動開始，大家開始在某些 perp DEX 上看到石油、黃金、白銀等商品的交易量大增。第三階段就是資產代幣化，甚至連 pre-IPO 資產都上鏈了。這些東西一上鏈，機構就發現真的有交易量，於是開始想，為什麼不把資產代幣化，從貨幣市場基金、國債開始，這些佔了整個 RWA 市場市值的 40%。現在有商品、代幣化股票，傳統金融機構也都在討論要分析、評估哪些資產可以代幣化。所以現在主題就是 PerpDEX、代幣化傳統金融，還有 RWA 機構，這也是這次會議大家都在談的重點。So I think for last 12 months, I categorize into maybe three stages as inflection points. Number one, I think PerpDEX trading volume exploded with the very famous Hyperliquid. As it picked it up, what comes next is TradFi asset on-chain. Starting with the commodities, when the U.S.-Iran war exploded and the oil price is very volatile, attractive assets to trade or invest with. So on certain perp DEXs, you start to see the trading volume break it out on oil and gold and silver and etc. When that happens, the third stage is then spill over to now is a tokenized equity. Even pre-IPO assets on-chain. And then those things pop it up on-chain. Now institutions coming in that, oh wait, there is actually real trading volume out of it. Why not we tokenize some assets, starting with the money market fund and the treasury, which occupy about 40% of entire RWA asset market cap. And now it's commodity, tokenized equity, and because of that, you see a lot of TradFi Wall Street institutions are on the panel talking about we are analyzing, we are evaluating different asset classes to be tokenized. So basically, PerpDEX and tokenized TradFi, and now we are talking about RWA institution that is the main subject. that you hear any part of this conference.

7:24創投基金策略與領域擴張

7:24接下來想追問一點，我們看到很多同行已經不只做純加密領域了，像 Framework、Paradigm 這些創投也開始投 AI、機器人等前沿領域。你們怎麼看自己的基金策略？會不會考慮擴大投資範圍？我們自己也開始關注像算力市場這種新資產類別，很有趣。想聽聽你們怎麼看自己的投資範圍和未來規劃，Steve 先說吧。Great, and maybe a follow-up point to that. You know, I think we're seeing a lot of our peers, you know, move beyond just purely crypto, right? Like you've had Framework or Paradigm and some of these other VCs becoming more of a frontier fund doing, you know, AI, robotics, etc. You know, how do you all think about your various funds and maybe mandate expansion beyond just maybe your bread and butter for doing early stage venture. And maybe for our side, you know, we've been looking at, you know, beyond crypto, there are new asset classes like compute markets, you know, coming up, which are very interesting. But, you know, I'd love to hear what you all think about, you know, your mandate over time. Maybe starting with Steve.

8:07我可以分成兩個層面來說。第一，我們從 2024 年 2 月成立以來，核心論點沒什麼變，就是要在私募市場（也就是創投）找到最有機會的標的。但隨著市場變化，我們也會關注其他機會，比如像他們做私募股權。我們自己沒改變太多，但會多看一些公開市場（public token market）的機會，尤其熊市時如果你做基本面分析、盡職調查，會有很多被低估的資產可以投資。第二，坦白說，現在只做加密創投其實很難。但作為創辦人，我對於隨便擴大投資範圍還是很謹慎。我們最近密切關注 AI 和區塊鏈的交集，還有算力市場，這對很多加密造市商來說是很自然的延伸。我們會看各種新領域，但同時也很重視投資原則和公司文化，不會像其他創投那麼快就擴大投資範圍。I can break it down to maybe two layers. Number one, something that we don't change much. So since we started the firm, 2024 February, our thesis is simple that we want to find the most opportunistic in private market, which is venture capital. But however, as things evolve, as he mentioned, We have to look at some other opportunity, like his shop doing private equity. So on us is we didn't change much, but make sure that we do see more attractive opportunity in liquid market, which is public token market outside of venture. Because when the sort of bear market hits, there are a lot of lucrative opportunity if you do the fundamental analysis, due diligence. There are a lot of distressed, discounted assets you can invest. So that's number one. Number two is more broadly, I admit that it's very hard to work as a crypto-only VC firm at this moment. So, but at the same time, as a founder of an investment firm, I'm very cautious about just changing or expanding mandate. In a short period of time, we are evaluating very closely with the AI intersection with the blockchain and compute market, which is a natural fit for a lot of crypto market makers' advantage and strength. So we are constantly looking at the different mandates outside crypto, but at the same time, we want to make sure that Our investment principle, as a founder who set the culture and investment philosophy of the firm, we are a little more careful than many other, I think, investment firms just to expand mandates.

9:51我們的看法也差不多。對我們來說，我們沒有特別的優勢，也沒有理由認為只因為我們在加密領域做得好，就能在 AI 或機器人領域也贏。通常我們看到那些案子的時候，可能已經快變成出場資金了。其實光是在加密領域內部，擴大投資策略的空間就很大。我們有創投部位，這一年也開始建立 liquid 部位，現在也在做專注於加密的私募股權策略。對我們來說，重點是擴大投資案型態，而不是離開我們的核心專長領域。Yeah, I think we see that somewhat similarly where, you know, for us, we don't have any particular edge or there's no particular reason why we should. Assume that we'll win in AI or robotics just because we have done very well in the crypto category in particular. For us, we see it by the time we see those deals, we're probably intended to be the exit liquidity or at least halfway there. I think that within crypto itself, mandate expansion. There's a lot of room to grow, right? We've got our venture book, in our case. We have our liquid book that we started building out over the past year or so. And now, as you mentioned, Steve, we're working on a private equity strategy that is focused on crypto. But for us, I think it's more about expanding the types of deals we do rather than expanding outside of our core areas of competence.

10:46我也很認同 Steve 和 Akshat 的看法。我覺得現在產業已經成熟到可以做私募股權，代表公司真的有在賺錢，這很棒。很多創投都說現在投加密很難，但我看深科技投資也很難，競爭激烈、估值又高。我們自己就是加密專家，不想去沒優勢的領域。你如果不是價值型投資人，硬要去別的領域，反而容易賠錢。我們的想法是，怎麼用我們的投資原則去擴大機會集。我們一直以主權、自由、開放、主動性為原則，從這裡延伸出隱私、安全、機會、能量、長期性。我們也有很多很棒的創業家，過去在加密領域表現優異，現在去前沿市場創業，我們也很樂意支持。我覺得這其實是精煉投資論點，而不是隨便轉型。對產業來說，這種多元化其實很好，因為過去幾年資產高度相關，基金回撤很痛苦。等機會集成熟後，會有更多不相關的成功案例，對基金報酬也比較健康。Yeah, I echo a lot of what Steve and Akshat said. I also think it's really exciting that our industry is at the point where it's actually suitable for private equity, which means that companies are making money, always a great thing. For us, you know, we've heard a lot of VCs say, Hey, investing in crypto is super hard right now. But also when I look at investing in deep tech, that also looks really hard. It's very competitive, valuations are really high, and ultimately we are experts in crypto. We don't want to, you know, go somewhere where we don't have an edge. We have accurate selection. You're not a value-added investor. It's like a surefire way to sort of lose. The way we think about it is how can we use our investing principles to sort of expand the aperture of the opportunity set. So we've always invested on the principles of, you know, sovereignty, freedom, access, and agency. From there you have privacy, security, opportunities and energy, longevity. We also have some really awesome repeat founders who have excelled at the crypto space and, you know, have sort of done their time and are now building companies in frontier markets who we are very excited to support. And I think this is actually sort of refining your thesis as opposed to just moving away from it in a very inauthentic way. And it's also good for the industry to think about it through that lens because some diversification is good for, like, crypto VC funds. Like, the drawdowns of the last couple years have been really tough for funds because every asset is very correlated. So as the, you know, the opportunity set matures, you have a lot more diversification and—You have a lot more sort of, you know, uncorrelated hits, which is healthier for, you know, returns at the end of the day.

12:41新興領域與未來看好的領域

12:41那我想再深入問一下，現在有很多新興領域很有趣。Min 剛剛提到，很多創業者從其他科技領域轉來區塊鏈，因為技術真的可行。我們自己很關注算力市場，這個市場價格波動對全球最重要的公司資本支出影響很大，市場結構也很有機會變得更成熟。我想請三位分享一下，你們在加密領域內最看好的兩三個領域，現場如果有人在這些領域創業也很歡迎。Steve 先說吧。Great, and then to double-click on that, you know, I think there are a lot of new interesting sectors. I think, Min, you kind of touched on this with, you know, a lot of founders coming from other, you know, areas within tech and then deciding to build something and—In blockchain, because the tech kind of works, you know, an area that we spend a lot of time looking at, as I mentioned earlier, is compute markets, right? It's a thing with a price where if it goes up or down, has enormous implications on, you know, the capex for many of the most important companies in the world. And I think the market itself is very ripe for, you know, some kind of sophistication to grow in the market structure. So that's an area that we're spending a lot of time on. I'd love to hear maybe from three of you, maybe two or three areas that you are very excited about within crypto, and maybe hopefully there's someone in the audience that's building in this space. But maybe starting with Steve. What are some sectors within crypto that you think will grow a lot over time and you're hoping to back?

13:48我可以講三個方向。第一是傳統金融資產代幣化，但我想再加一層，就是這些代幣化資產的可組合性。如果只是把資產上鏈，其實沒什麼意義，區塊鏈的優勢是你可以靈活運用、轉移這些資產。比如說，我希望看到更多專案用代幣化資產當作抵押品，讓你可以借貸，這才是真正發揮區塊鏈技術的競爭優勢。第二當然是 AI，但我會謹慎看待純 AI 領域。我相信區塊鏈和 AI 的交集很有潛力，像 AI agent 之間要互相交易，區塊鏈會是最有潛力的解決方案。你不會希望 AI agent 還要輸入密碼登入銀行帳戶轉帳，太慢又太人工，必須要人類介入。區塊鏈就是很完美的基礎設施，讓 AI agent 之間可以自動交易，這點連圈外的人都同意。所以這類應用我很期待。最後，還有很多 AI 造成的駭客事件——I can mention in three things. Number one, TradFi tokenization. But I want to add one more layer. So there will be a lot of tokenized assets already, private credit and treasury and such. But what I'm more excited in that category is composability of those tokenized assets. If it's just tokenized asset on blockchain, I don't think it means much. But the blockchain's competitive advantage is you can use the asset, you can move the asset, you can use the asset. So, for example, I think I want to see more projects that leverage tokenized asset as a collateral. And you can borrow against something like that. So I think that's a kind of leveraging the competitive advantage of blockchain technology. That's number one. Number two is, of course, I want to mention the AI. But as I mentioned, I will be careful with the pure AI play. But I want to see, and I do believe in there is an intersection between blockchain and AI. So where it is, I think I have no doubt that AI agent to transact each other, the blockchain will be primary potential solution because I don't consider AI agent to put the password to login Chase bank account to send the money or something. It's too slow, too manual. You need a human. I think blockchain is just, I mean, I think many people even outside crypto agree that blockchain is such a perfect solution for AI agents to transact each other. So those are kind of applications that I'm looking for. Lastly, there are a lot of hacking incidents by AI,

15:28新興投資機會與安全需求

15:28我不確定未來這類投資機會會是什麼形式，但我很想看到有安全公司出現，能夠防止或保護區塊鏈相關企業免於被 AI 攻擊的駭客事件。So I don't know what kind of format that investment opportunity will be, but I want to see security firm. That somehow prevents or protects potential hacking incident by AI attacking blockchain-related companies.

15:42另外還有幾個我想提的，大家都知道我們這產業很愛賭場。雖然我們叫它不同的名字，像是永續合約交易所、預測市場等等，但本質上還是賭場。這類高品質、耐久的賭場型產品永遠都很吸引人，我們也一直在找這樣的機會。A couple more I'd throw out, you know, obviously our industry does like casinos. We call them different things. We call them perps exchanges. We call them, you know, prediction markets, whatever. But ultimately. Casinos are always going to be very engaging and always on the lookout for high-quality, durable casinos like that.

16:05還有 DeFi 基礎模組。雖然這是個很廣泛的概念，但其實就是你剛剛說的，像是幫助連結 DeFi 各個部分、甚至連結傳統金融（TradFi）彼此的基礎建設。我們也一直在尋找這類型的商業模式。其實我們第一支基金，三年前成立，最成功的初期投資大多都屬於這一類，像 Ethena 就是其中最有代表性的案例之一。There's also DeFi primitives. I know it's kind of a broad concept, but it relates to what you were saying, kind of like these building blocks to help link different parts of DeFi, TradFi with each other and within each other as well. Always on the lookout for businesses like that. Our first fund, I guess earlier, our fund is only three years old. Our initial investments that were very successful, mostly in that category, Athena being one of the most notable ones.

16:36新型態數位銀行與 DePIN 長線機會

16:36數位新銀行（Neobanks）我們也很有興趣。現在是近年來第一次，有全新技術堆疊能夠重新打造銀行體驗，讓全球更多人享受到更低技術門檻、更低成本的金融服務。這是一個關鍵轉折點，未來會有很多新創公司在這領域冒出來。Neobanks is also very interesting to us. Now, for the first time in recent history, a new tech stack is able to redo the banking experience. For a very, very high number of people in the world, with fewer barriers from a technology and cost perspective than before. So we're kind of at this inflection point where a lot of new businesses are going to come up in that realm.

16:59如果要說一個更長線、我個人覺得有趣的領域，就是 DePIN（去中心化實體基礎設施網路）。這個領域未來一定會成熟，因為它的市場規模最大，涵蓋商業治理、資源分配、資本形成等各種面向，會把很多不同角色聚集起來。雖然現在還沒到那個階段，這大概是五到十年的願景，不是十八個月內會發生的事。And then if I had to pick, like, a longer-term area that's kind of interesting to me is I think DePIN will come of age at some point. It, as you know, goes after the largest TAM. It touches so many different parts of business governance, of, you know, just kind of bringing together different parties, resource allocation, capital formation. It touches a lot of different parts of the economy that I think eventually the building blocks will start to get built. We're not there yet. This is like a five to ten year vision, not an 18 month vision.

17:31AI 與加密的交集：金融服務與身分認證

17:31你們剛剛提到的都很棒。我特別關注 AI 與加密的交集，尤其是在金融服務和身分認證這兩個領域。這兩塊真的很需要驗證、隱私等特性，這些主題正好是 AI 與加密結合時會浮現的重點。Yeah, there's some good ones that you guys mentioned, I think. You know, touching on the intersection of AI and crypto, I think I'm particularly interested in how they manifest in two areas. The first one is financial services, and the second is identity. I think these are the areas where you actually need the, you know, the verification, the privacy, you know, all the themes that really emerge with the intersection of AI and crypto.

17:59在金融服務這邊，AI 結合風險評估和自動化支付，真的會讓很多商業流程變得更順暢、更不可阻擋。像 Instinct 和 Muse 這些案例都顯示，大家很渴望自動化日常行政工作，但又會擔心資安問題。這時候加密驗證就能發揮很大作用。And, you know, for financial services, the combination of AI and underwriting and autonomous payments, I think is really unstoppable and can just make a lot more business processes more seamless. I think with Instinct and Muse, we have seen how desperate people are to sort of automate a lot of everyday admin, and, you know, now they're like, wow, how do I, how can I do this in a more secure way? You know, because there's a big cybersecurity incident waiting to happen. I think that's where, like, the combination of, like, you know, crypto verification can really help.

18:32身分認證這塊也越來越重要，像 Hyperliquid 這類平台正嘗試如何合法進入美國市場。SEC 最近幾個月也針對去中心化錢包和協議在美國運作給了很好的指引，讓 24/7 交易各種代幣化資產變得可行，這很有前景。但目前身分認證還沒有很好的解決方案。我自己也很討厭一直用 email 傳護照，如果有個 agent 能幫我驗證資料並確保正確處理就太好了。On the identity side, it's becoming increasingly pertinent as the likes of, you know, Hyperliquid are exploring how to get onshore. You know, I think the SEC has issued some really great guidance in the last couple of months on how decentralized wallets and protocols can operate in the U.S. and how they can enable sort of 24/7 trading of, like, you know, different tokenized assets. It's all really promising. But we don't really have a great way for identity right now. And the same way, like I really hate sending my passport on email all the time. It would be great if, you know, I have an agent who can actually just verify those details for me and ensure that, you know, that's done in an appropriately correct way.

19:18身分認證一直是產業的痛點，因為大家都很偏好 cypherpunk 式的去中心化。但現在產業越來越受監管，大家想要接觸更多傳統金融資產，這就變成必要條件。我認為現在正是投資身分解決方案的好時機。So I think identity is something that we've kind of struggled with as an industry for a long time because there's been a huge preference for, like, the cypherpunk kind of decentralization. But now as things move more, like, regulated, you know, we want access to more TradFi assets, and that's a prerequisite for it. I think it's a great time to be investing in identity solutions. Great.

19:42創業者類型的演變

19:42這題是給現場創業者的。我們觀察到進入加密產業的創業者類型其實有明顯變化。過去幾個週期，通常是很年輕、很有野心的人進來，願意冒險，因為那時加密地位很低、不被主流接受。隨著產業成熟，現在進來的創業者越來越有機構背景，可能不是大學輟學生，而是在其他產業打滾十幾二十年的人。你們有觀察到這樣的變化嗎？This one is for the founders here in the audience. I think what we've noticed over time is an evolution in the archetype of the founders that are coming into crypto. I think we've kind of alluded to this earlier, right? I think it went from maybe— The past few cycles, you just have very young and ambitious people that just want to build something. And maybe there's a function of being early and willing to take the risk when, you know, crypto is low status and not accepted by, you know, the system. But over time, as, you know, the industry matures, the archetypes of the founders that are coming in tend to be a lot more institutional, right, instead of a— College dropout, maybe you have someone that cut their teeth in another industry for like 10, 20 years. I'm curious for you all, do you see that change happening in the kinds of founders that you choose to back over time?

20:37我們真的看到很大的變化。現在的加密創業者都超強，很多是連續創業家。過去十年，很多人把加密當成身分認同，覺得自己是這場運動的一份子，這很棒，但有時候光有這樣的身分還不夠打造成功公司。現在的創業者更看重技術的潛力和實用性，真的把它當成基礎建設來用，執行力超強。以我們投資的 pre-seed 和 seed 階段團隊來說，現在很多團隊 12 個月內就能做出產品並有營收，這在 2021 年根本不可能。很開心看到這產業還是能吸引到很優秀的人才，尤其現在 AI 市場這麼熱，機會比以往都還多。Maybe starting with Min. Sure, yeah, we've seen a real change. I mean, I think founders— Crypto founders these days are absolute killers. You know, you see a lot of repeat founders, and for the last decade, I think a lot of founders in crypto sort of saw it as a big identity. You know, I'm part of this big crypto movement, and I think that's really great. However, I think sometimes, like, you know, that's insufficient when it comes to creating a really successful company. But— Founders today, I think they see it. They see the technology for its potential, its usefulness. They're really using it as infrastructure. They're super focused on execution. You know, anecdotally, I would say even our portfolio, and we're pre-seed and seed investors, our founders get to product and revenues within 12 months, which is definitely not what we saw in 2021. So it's great to sort of see the space still attract, like, really good founding talent, especially with what's going on in the AI market. And I think the opportunity set is better than ever.

21:45我也同意，現在創業者的素質平均來說更高，履歷也更漂亮。大家執行速度更快、轉型也更靈活。我們這些投資人也都被市場教訓過，早期創業者很多是靠加密致富，對自己公司成敗沒那麼在意，現在就不一樣了，大家都更在乎公司成敗，也經歷過 FTX 這種大崩盤和『加密已死』的時刻。對我們來說，最重要的指標之一就是創業者能否從低谷中再站起來。Yeah, I think, yeah, on average, the founder quality has improved better. I think track records than before, for sure. You see people can ship more quickly, they're pivoting better. Also, we've all been humbled. Earlier batch of founders were often independently wealthy from crypto itself, a little bit insulated from the successes or lack thereof of their businesses, but that's a little bit different now. They have a little bit more riding on the success of their business, and also many have seen dark moments. There've been the FTX-type crashes, there've been, you know, a few crypto's dead moments. And I think for us, that's one of the most important signs that we look for from a founder, is the ability to come back from the dead.

22:37我同意前面說的優點，但也想補充一點沒變的地方：加密創業者還是很容易追逐風口。一方面我理解，如果你現在不穿西裝、不談 RWA（實體資產代幣化），很容易被市場忽略。很多我認識七八年的創業者，從以前穿拖鞋 T 恤牛仔褲，現在都穿西裝了。這是為了生存必須做的。但我還是希望，不管你做 RWA 還是機構業務，風口一直在變，像六個月前是預測市場，十二個月前是 meme coin，這都沒關係，但你還是要專注在自己的競爭優勢，跟同類型創業者有什麼差異，這才是我們最想看到的。I agree with all the great parts, so maybe if I have put counter points to that will be what hasn't changed much is still, I think the founders in crypto are inclined to chase the waves. On one hand, I agree because if you don't wear the suits, if you don't talk about RWA tokenization today, you will be dismissed. You will be disregarded to a large extent. So somehow, those founders I've known for seven or eight years who used to wear the flip-flop and T-shirts and jeans suddenly wear the suits. So I do understand to survive, because you have to do so. But on the other hand, I want at least, you know, if you have to be RWA or institution or whatever, the waves are coming. Prediction market six months ago, meme coin 12 months ago. It's okay, but I think that you have to focusing on what your competitive advantage is. What the differentiation you are against other founders in the same category? I think that's something that we strive to look from, and I want the founders to show off the most.

23:57Token 與股權的價值分配

23:57最後一題，大家常問公司價值到底會落在 token 還是股權？今年 CLARITY Act 沒過，很多 token-only 公司想要私有化，也有沒發 token 的公司在想要不要發。你們怎麼看 token 跟股權的選擇？Great, and I think this will be the last question for today, I think. You know, there's always a question as to where value accrues within the company between the token and the equity. The Clarity Act unfortunately didn't pass this year, and I think we've seen many cases, right, where a token-only company is thinking of going private, or maybe a company without a token is saying, should I even launch a token? And I'm curious, for the three of you, how do you think about, you know, deciding between token and equity, what makes sense to do one over the other?

24:36熊市時大多數投資人會偏好股權，因為對 token 價格沒信心。但如果明年或年底進入牛市，大家又會想要多一點 token，這是人性。我的答案是要取得平衡。以我們現在來說，最喜歡的是股權加 token warrant 的結構，兩邊都拿。但這沒有絕對答案，還是要看專案本身、token 設計和商業模式。有些專案 token 比較有意義，像現在大家越來越重視 token 基本面，像 Hump、DeFi、Hyperliquid、Aave 這些會回購或有營收的項目。但不是每個專案都適合這種模式。每個團隊都應該清楚定義自己的商業模式，並透明地跟投資人溝通，讓投資人知道該關注股權還是 token 價值。我還是相信 token 是區塊鏈產業的創新，帶來所有權等革命性產品，token 投資還是有價值，但創業者要搞清楚自己的模式，確保 token 能夠捕捉到價值。And maybe I'll start with Steve. In bear market, most investors prefer the equity portion more because you are less confident about token price action. But on the other hand, if we are gonna look at the bull market next year or end of this year, I think people want more token portion. That's human nature. So I think my answer to the question will be it is a right balance. Right balance means that, of course, I as an investor, as of today, we prefer equity plus token warrant structure the most because you take the both side. But I think it's not an absolute answer. I think it depends on the project, depends on token design or type of your business model. I think token makes sense more or less. So, for example, in crypto today, there are more and more narratives that people looking at the fundamental of token value or fundamental of token price. So that's one narrative, such as. Hump, DeFi, Hyperliquid, Aave, or those guys who are buying back or making a revenue. But I don't think that all the crypto projects can follow that model. So I think every project should define their business model clearly, and then communicate to the potential investor in a transparent manner where the investor should focus on whether equity value or token value. And last point I will make it is still I believe that crypto token is an innovation of what the blockchain industry can do. And token is some revolution product to me that many that entitle with the ownership and etc. So I still believe that there is a value of doing token investment. But just make sure that founders do understand their business model and adjust it to making sure whether token value capture that or not.

26:27現在投資圈明顯比一年前多了很多純股權案，這其實很合理，因為過去很多公司根本不需要 token，token 常常只是投資人當作免費選擇權。現在大家會更認真思考到底需不需要 token，還是要看每個商業模式。有些情況 token 可以協調多方參與者，有些公司有穩定現金流，純股權更容易五到七年後打包出售。有時候發 token 只是為了賣夢想給新買家。總之還是要個案討論。我們也因此成立了私募股權基金，能同時投資純股權、股權加 token、或純 token。Yeah, I'm sure everyone who's on the investment side is seeing the same kind of thing where there's a lot more equity-only deals nowadays than there were a year and a half ago. In many cases, that makes sense. It's rational. A lot of these businesses in the past didn't need tokens. To your point, they often were just kind of like treated as free options, right, by investors. You know, do an equity round, but also throw in a token warrant just in case. Nowadays, I think people are being a little more thoughtful of whether they need a token or not. It just depends on each business model. You know, there's some cases where the token has an actual use case to help coordinate many different parties together in some capacity. There's some businesses where they have recurring cash flows that are more easily packaged for a sale in five to seven years when the business does very well if it stays equity only. In some cases, they might, it might make sense to do a token. But it's better to sell the dream of that token to these new acquirers. So I think, you know, it's just kind of a case-by-case basis. And part of the reason, again, that we launched our private equity fund, which is to go after both alternatives: pure play equity, equity plus token, and then just pure token through our VC fund.

27:45我覺得 Akshat 和 Steve 都講到重點了。對我們來說，我們很愛 token，我們投資的公司會發 token，我們也會買 token。重點是 token 是你產品設計的一部分，還是只是為了退出流動性？如果只是後者，現在已經行不通了，還不如省點麻煩。對我們來說，token 就像是代幣化股權，現在兩者的估值方式都一樣，都是看未來現金流折現。其實只是把價值從左口袋移到右口袋而已，也不用太執著。如果 token 有目的，不一定要有實用性，像 meme coin 其實就像賣 T 恤一樣，這也沒問題，重點是要誠實說明。現在發 token 成本很高，過去那種瘋狂發行的時代已經過去了。我們也看到有些公司發了 token 之後，轉型做企業或機構客戶，反而想把 token 拿掉，因為這些客戶不喜歡流通性太高的 token。這點也要考慮。不過我們還是很愛 token，希望公司多發 token，多一點 meme coin 也很好。Yeah, I think Akshat and Steve mentioned some great points. Ultimately for us, we love tokens. Our companies issue tokens. We buy tokens. I think the differentiator is, is the token part of your product design or is it your exit liquidity strategy? Because if it's the latter, it just doesn't work anymore. So you might as well save yourself the trouble. For us, we see tokens as tokenized equity. They're now both valued the same way as discounted future cash flows of the network or the company. So it's just moving, you know, value from your left pocket to your right pocket, and you should also save yourself the trouble. And if tokens have a purpose, and it doesn't mean it needs to have real utility, like, you know, you could— Launch a token as a company, like a meme coin, it's like selling T-shirts. That's totally fine. But I think, you know, being upfront about that is honest, and it's now become quite expensive for companies to launch tokens, considering, you know, the heydays of these, like, crazy launches are way past us right now. We've also found. A number of our companies have launched tokens that actually want to do away with the token because now they've pivoted, they go towards enterprise or institutional clients who are a bit deterred by the actual liquid token. So that's something to consider too. But otherwise, we still love tokens. We hope companies launch more tokens. We hope there are more meme coins. I think they're great. Great.

29:19如何聯絡創投與結語

29:19最後一題，怎麼聯絡你們？Min：我在 Twitter，帳號是 _Min2，也可以到 EtherealVentures.com 找我們。Akshat：我在 Twitter，帳號是 Akshat_HK，人在香港，夜生活場合常出沒。Steve：Twitter 和 LinkedIn 都是 XX Steve Lee，主要在邁阿密海灘，有時在紐約。Doug：ZeroX.ie，人在新加坡和杜拜。謝謝大家參加，也感謝大家的專注，這場討論到這邊結束。Final thing, what's the best way to reach you, starting maybe with Min? Sure. I'm on Twitter at underscore Min2, and you can also find us at EtherealVentures.com. I'm also on Twitter at Akshat, that's A-K-S-H-A-T underscore H-K, and I'm based in Hong Kong. So if you know where to go in the Hong Kong nightlife scene, you'll see me around sometime. Okay. Twitter and LinkedIn, both X, X, Steve Lee. I'm usually based in Miami Beach, sometimes in New York, so that's how you guys reach. Great. ZeroX.ie, based in Singapore and Dubai. Thank you everyone for having us and for your attention. That's the end of the panel.