加密新型銀行大戰：誰能取代你的銀行？（ether.fi、Rain、Plasma、CoinGecko）

0:00開場與自我介紹：什麼是加密新型銀行？

0:00歡迎大家！在這波熊市裡，加密新型銀行是少數亮點之一，大家都在快速成長。今天有很多有趣的問題，很高興大家來到現場。那我們就直接開始吧。先請每位來賓簡單自我介紹，並用一句話說明你心目中的加密新型銀行是什麼，以及你們做了什麼是傳統銀行做不到的？Oh, welcome guys. This is one of the bright spots in the crypto bear market, crypto neobanks, where all you guys are growing. Yeah, a lot of interesting questions. Very excited to have all of you here. So yeah, let's get into it. Maybe briefly, let's go through a round, do a short introduction of self, and then in one sentence explain, from your perspective, what is a crypto neobank, and what's the one thing you do that a bank can't?

0:41我是 Mike Silagadze，ether.fi 的創辦人暨執行長。ether.fi 被稱為加密新型銀行，目標是打造一個非託管、可以完全取代傳統銀行的解決方案，讓大家可以儲蓄、投資、消費，做所有你在傳統銀行會做的事，但全程自主管理資產，享受更高回饋、更低手續費。我認為這個類型的產品在結構上就比傳統金融科技機構更優，像 ether.fi 只有 40 名員工，卻能管理 65 億美元資產、數十億支付量，傳統銀行要做到這規模可能要 500-600 人。這種成本結構的差異，讓我們能提供更好的產品、更高回饋、更低費用，這會成為未來金融科技的主流模式。So I'm Mike Silagadze, founder and CEO of ether.fi. ether.fi is, as has been called, a crypto neobank. The idea there is basically to create a non-custodial alternative to traditional banks. So a full end-to-end replacement that lets people save, invest, spend, do all the things they would normally do with their TradFi bank. But do it in a self-custodial way, and ultimately give them a better product with, you know, higher rewards, lower fees. I think there's a bunch of things that this category just structurally is better than traditional fintech institutions. One, it is a lower cost base. So ether.fi has about—six and a half billion dollars in assets. We're doing a couple billion dollars in payment volume. If you take the numbers, if you sort of profile ether.fi and say, all right, how big would you need to be as a TradFi institution to operate at this scale, we'd need to have probably around five or six hundred employees, whereas ether.fi has about 40 employees. So there's an order of magnitude difference in cost structure, which means we can create a product that doesn't extract as much for the users, doesn't charge as much, and ultimately gives them more rewards. That's why I think ultimately, you know, this becomes the template. This becomes the model that all fintech moves to.

2:10我是 Sean Clark，Rain 的合作總監。Rain 是全球穩定幣卡發卡商與穩定幣基礎設施公司。我認為傳統新型銀行只是把漂亮介面包在舊有金融基礎上，而加密新型銀行則是建立在網路原生、可程式化的貨幣上，背後一切運作都更有效率。正如 Mike 所說，這讓整體效率大幅提升。Sean Clark, Director of Partnerships at Rain. For those who don't know Rain, Rain is a global stablecoin card issuer and stablecoin infrastructure company. In one sentence, I think really the difference between traditional neobanks and crypto neobanks is that traditional neobanks built a nice interface on top of legacy rails. Whereas crypto neobanks have built on internet-native money that's programmable, so you kind of everything moves more quickly behind the scenes. And as you were saying, Mike, things just become inherently more efficient.

2:48我是 Zaheer Ebtikar，Plasma 的 CSO 兼創辦人。Plasma 跟 ether.fi 一樣，是做加密美元帳戶、加密新型銀行，我們都用 Rain 的基礎設施。傳統新型銀行其實只是銀行的 UI，沒有實質創新，也沒有實體分行。我自己以前用過 Revolut，體驗很差。我們想做出真正能跟其他產業一樣快速進步的產品。直到 Rain、ether.fi、Plasma 這些公司出現，大家才能真正用穩定幣全球消費、跟法幣系統互通。穩定幣其實就是更好的貨幣，這才是我們在意的重點。My name is Zaheer Ebtikar, CSO and founder at Plasma. So Plasma, like ether.fi, is in the, you know, crypto dollar account, crypto neobank. Space, we're both powered by Rain. So, you know, big shout out to Rain. We're big fans. I think the biggest difference between crypto neobanks and traditional neobanks is that traditional neobanks are mostly just not neobanks. They are a nice UI that exists for a bank, and that's the only difference. And they don't have physical locations in most cases. I'm a Revolut user myself in the past, and it's just an awful product. And we wanted to bring about a product that is advancing as fast as other industries. I think we like to really complement ourselves in the crypto space as being very tech-forward, you know, that money 2.0, money 3.0, whatever you want to call it. But in reality, like, we haven't delivered on those promises until, I think, both, you know, companies like Rain, ether.fi, Plasma, whatnot. have come to the market, been able to issue cards globally and make your stablecoins actually spendable and fungible with, you know, just fiat systems. I was in Korea last week and we had this whole conversation about, you know, what do stablecoins mean, etc. But the reality is it shouldn't mean anything. It's just a better form of money, and that's the only thing we want to actually care about.

4:04從質押到新型銀行：ether.fi 的轉型

4:04Mike，ether.fi 一開始是做再質押協議的，我還記得以前在 ether.fi 上質押 ETH。現在卡片業務成為你們成長最快的收入來源，什麼時候你意識到新型銀行才是最大機會？你們的使用者有多少人其實從沒碰過質押？Oh, thank you. So next question from Mike. ether.fi started as a restaking protocol. I remember the good old days when I actually staked my ETH on ether.fi. But right now, card is your fastest growing revenue line. When you realized that the neobank was the business, was the opportunity, and how many of your users have never touched staking before this?

4:27其實現在大部分使用者都沒碰過質押或收益金庫。這些功能比較偏向機構使用者。三年前我們募資時，簡報裡就有規劃要做垂直整合金融科技，質押只是第一步，當作收益層，像是我們先做了 T-bill，再往上疊加策略金庫、投資工具，最後才是消費功能。雖然質押和再質押去年爆紅，幫助我們成長、融資，但從第一天開始，我們的願景就是打造加密新型銀行平台。So I'll answer maybe the last part first, which is almost all of them at this point. The staking and yield vaults is very—it's almost like institutional facing. But anyway, so we raised our Series A back in 2023, so three years ago. And in our Series A pitch deck, we had this slide that talked about how we're going to build this vertically integrated fintech business. And staking was the first component of it because that served as the yield layer. It's almost like, think of it as like, okay, we had to create a T-bill, and then on top of T-bills, we created, you know, strategy vaults, you know, investment tools, and then we built the spending component. So we sort of built these pieces up over time. But this was actually the vision from day one. It's just that staking and restaking specifically just went apeshit for like a year, and that was helpful to us because, you know, it helped us grow and financed a lot of the development, but this idea of, you know, creating this crypto neobank platform was actually there from day one.

5:41為什麼選擇新型銀行？鏈上應用與生態策略

5:41Zaheer，你以前經營避險基金 Split Capital，後來關掉，稱之為 crypto 的最後一支舞。為什麼轉戰新型銀行？你認為鏈為什麼需要自己的消費者應用，而不是讓其他人來建？Next ones are here. You used to run a profitable hedge fund, Split Capital. You closed it down and just called it crypto's last dance. Why move and why bet on a neobank next? And why does a chain need its own consumer app instead of letting users, letting others build on top of it?

5:59我先回答第二個問題。過去五六年我們看過各種鏈的生態系嘗試，但其實很難靠單純打造新生態來成功。即使像 Hyperliquid 這種用量很高的鏈，生態也沒真的蓬勃發展。其實最好的應用都已經存在，例如 Uniswap、Aave，沒必要重造輪子。我們選擇讓最強的夥伴原生在 Plasma 上建設，自己則專注做分發應用 Plasma One。單靠高效能鏈不會帶來使用者，必須有應用推動需求。至於關掉避險基金，是因為資產配置太集中，幾乎只剩 Hyperliquid 和 Plasma，不想只押一個方向。當時這類新型銀行還沒證明產品市場契合，但現在已經是除了永續合約外，唯一有明顯 PMF 的領域。其實我們跟全球最大支付公司都有很深入的合作討論，他們真的想採用穩定幣。市場對這個領域的規模嚴重低估，未來一兩年回頭看會發現這是最明顯的趨勢。Yeah, I want to answer the second question first, stealing Mike's move here. You know, we've seen every sort of iteration on a chain in the last five, six years. None of them work really well when it comes to trying to build out, like, a new ecosystem. Even the best, you know, chain that exists today in terms of usage, which is probably Hyperliquid, in terms of, like, having a very core application, it's not like the ecosystem in Hyperliquid is thriving and, you know, there's all kinds of new apps that are being built on top of it. I think, generally speaking, you know, ecosystem teams in crypto are pretty poor, and the best companies already exist, right? Uniswap exists, Aave exists. All of the best companies already exist. Why would we try to, you know, replace them? Why would we even try to give grants for new people to come and build it? And so instead, what we focused on was we wanted the best partners to come build natively on Plasma, and then focus on the distribution application building ourselves, which is Plasma One. So this was already in the kind of, you know, landscape for us. We knew that if we built a high-performance chain, that alone wouldn't get, you know, usage. We do $30 billion a month in stablecoin settlement between exchanges on USDT. But even still, that's not going to drive network demand in and of itself unless we're able to power the application. On the hedge fund side, the reason why I left, you know, wound down the hedge fund, we made money, you know, both years of operation, really it came down to portfolio diversification. You know, it ended up becoming a case where I owned Hyperliquid. I own Plasma, and there was basically nothing else in my portfolio. And I didn't want to run a vehicle where this was the only consensus bet that I had. I think this was, you know, at a time more than a year ago when this category was still yet to be proven as having product-market fit. Now it's very rapidly becoming probably the only real space outside of perp trading that is getting real PMF in crypto. And I think a lot of conversations, I'm sure this applies for Mike and Sean as well, a lot of conversations that we have in the background are with the largest payments companies in the world in a very real way that they want to, you know, adopt and accept stablecoins. So I think there's a massive perception mismatch between how large this market is going to be and retail focus on how this will actually end up working out. There's a lot of payment-specific knowledge that ends up going into this whole conversation, and that's, like, probably where the chasm comes from. But I think in a year to two time, this is going to be seen in hindsight as the most obvious trend that was happening in real time.

8:31卡片發行與規模化：Rain 的觀察

8:31Sean，Rain 同時支援 Plasma 和 ether.fi，也管理超過 200 個卡片計畫。你怎麼看哪些卡片計畫能做大、哪些會卡關？常見的錯誤有哪些？Sean, so Rain, you obviously had an infrastructure for both Plasma and ether.fi. And Rain, you oversee over 200 different card programs. From your perspective, what separates the ones that scale from the ones that stall? And what are some of the more common mistakes that you see card issuers, I guess, card programs run? What are some of the mistakes here?

8:56其實發卡競爭不是新鮮事，傳統銀行也會發航空、飯店聯名卡互相競爭。我們 Rain 的角色是打造基礎設施，讓合作夥伴能發揮所長。穩定幣卡不是產品本身，基礎設施也不是分發本身。我們專注聆聽夥伴需求，協助他們成功。常見錯誤是太分散、不專注於自己擅長的市場，沒有真正了解使用者。聚焦、深入了解使用者，才能做出最好的體驗，這才是成功關鍵。Yeah, so there's a couple of things I think about here. An issuer running competitive programs is not new. Large traditional banks have powered airline, hotel programs that may compete, right? So that's completely normal. We're building the infrastructure to empower our partners, right? Stablecoin is not—Stablecoin Card is not the product, and Infrastructure is not the distribution. So we build the building blocks. We listen to our partners to understand what they want us to build and how we can help them the most, and then we go from there. I think going too far and wide and not focusing on what they're good at, honing in on a specific market, speaking to their customers, understanding their customers. So narrowing in on that focus area and truly delivering the best experience for them is how to succeed.

9:56新型銀行的商業模式與獲利挑戰

9:56Mike 和 Zaheer，你們新型銀行的經濟模型真的可行嗎？你們給 3-4% 現金回饋、還有存款利息，這些錢從哪來？是補貼還是可持續？Maybe, I guess the question for Mike and Zahir now is the economics for running a neobank good? I mean, you guys pay 3 to 4% cashback, you pay you on the balances. Where does the money come from? And how long can it last? Are you guys subsidizing users, and that's kind of how the yield is coming from, or is it actually sustainable?

10:20其實獎勵來源很多元，像 ether.fi 有卡片消費的 interchange 收入、借貸市場的利差、App 內代幣兌換、質押獎勵、收益金庫等多條產品線。只要設計得當，整體是很有利潤的。我們每個使用者都有正向單位經濟效益，從創業第一天就獲利，甚至今年還能花 1500 萬美元回購自家代幣，淨利潤還是正的。這跟我以前做 B2B SaaS 完全不同，這個模式成長快又能賺錢。Yeah, it's—look, there's different ways. There's a lot of nuance there in terms of how the rewards are paid out, and having multiple lines of product. So for ether.fi... You know, we have the interchange revenue from card spend. We have our lending market where people are borrowing and we take a spread. We have token swaps that people do in app where we generate some revenue. There's the staking rewards. There's the yield vault. So multiple products is very important. And the way that the rewards are paid out if one is thoughtful about it, you know, the entire thing can be quite, quite profitable. So yeah, so we make money on every user. We make, we have very nice positive unit economics in terms of cost of acquisition and—And revenue, we've been profitable since day one as a business. So it's, yeah, it's actually, it's a great business. Congrats. Well, that's why, I mean, we're spending like $15 million in buybacks this year, you know, buybacks of our token. I mean, that's—and we're profitable net of that. So it's, yeah, it's actually quite good, growing this fast and being profitable. It's like in my previous company, it was a SaaS, B2B SaaS company. Very different world.

11:49我們也是一樣，重點是你想怎麼經營。可以選擇激進成長、不計獲利，也可以追求健康成長。我們目前每月都在快速成長，重點是設計好單位經濟模型，讓使用者體驗好、長期能持續經營。雖然新型銀行初期成本高，但長期下來會有很大獲利空間。不過也有很多新型銀行成長一段時間後就卡住，因為無法再獲取新使用者。這個產業會有很大分化，表面資料一樣，但市值可能差十倍百倍，關鍵在市場怎麼看待。Yeah, I think, you know, similar to Mike, like really it comes down to how you want to run the business. You can go super aggressive. And not be profitable and just want to get user growth. It really depends on what your goal is. I think we've been in a position now where, you know, we're growing rapidly. We're constantly getting, you know, month-over-month growth at a pretty brisk pace, I think even for any sort of, like, traditional startup, anything like this. So it really just depends on how you want to actually end up, you know, structuring your... Your unit economics and basically the revenue that you want to generate. I think for us, like, we—I come from San Francisco, I grew up in the Bay Area. It's very much a game of, you know, getting revenue on the board, but also making sure that your users have a delightful customer experience end to end on the app. And I think that's going to be the thing that gives us the longevity to keep growing and building this thing out. You know, when it comes to, like, running the neobank, it is obviously going to be a very expensive proposition. But at the same time, that over a long enough period of time, you will make a tremendous amount of money doing this. On the flip side of it, and we've seen a lot of neobanks, a lot of, like, you know, business banking accounts, that sort of thing, have very good kind of steady growth, and then at some point. They just kind of die because they can't acquire the next user. So there's a lot of stratification in the existing kind of neobank or business banking universe that ends up happening, where two companies can look the exact same on the revenue side and everything looks good, and one can be worth like 10 or 100 times more. And that's really when you have to dig into, you know, how does the market understand it. And this applies more for traditional neobanks, but it will increasingly apply for crypto neobanks as well.

13:35AI 與代理人支付：未來趨勢還是炒作？

13:35現在大家都在討論 AI，像是為 AI 代理人打造銀行或支付解決方案。你們怎麼看 agentic payments？代理人會成為下一波主力使用者嗎，還是只是炒作？Everyone's talking about AI this time around as well, you know, building banks or payment solutions for AI agents. What's your take on agentic payments? Do you see them as the next big group of users instead of humans, or not really, is all hype right now.

13:50我覺得未來每個金融科技都會有 agentic payments，像我們剛推出自己的 MCP 服務，讓代理人可以串接 Muse、Instinct 等平台。很多功能會被抽象化，但我們還在思考怎麼把智能真正融入產品，而不是只是加個聊天機器人就說自己有 AI。這需要很用心設計，不能只是為了蹭 AI 熱潮。Yeah, I mean, I think it's going to be the default for every fintech. I mean, this is just the starting point to have an MCP service that your agent can use so that you can plug it into Muse or Instinct or whatever. We actually just released ours, so people can try it out. So then, you know, a lot of this stuff will be abstracted. I'm still—we're still trying to figure out how do we inject intelligence into the product in a way that's not—doesn't feel bolted on and kind of pointless, right? Like a lot of products you see just kind of like... Plugging in a dumb, not dumb, whatever, a chatbot, and it's like, oh, now we're agentic, you know, give us an AI multiple. So we haven't, we've sort of resisted the temptation to do that. I think there's definitely something there, but I think it needs to be done thoughtfully.

14:50重點還是要回到使用者需求。代理人有消費權限不是問題，重點是怎麼設定範圍，避免亂花錢。我不認為代理人會完全取代人類，最終還是需要人類審核。雖然很新奇，但大多數西方市場的人還是去實體銀行辦事，金融對大家來說很個人化，這也是為什麼全球加密採用率還不高。AI 代理人支付要普及還需要時間，雖然這是很強的敘事，但短期內使用者不會大規模採用。Kind of to Mike's point, you have to meet your customers where they are. So where are they going to engage with agentic payments? I think giving agents the spending power is not the challenge. It's putting, like, scoping that spending power out so spending doesn't get out of control. So I don't think agents will replace humans necessarily for spending. They can go out and try to make that purchase, but at the end of the day, there will need to be a human to approve that purchase. Yeah, I mean, I think long run it's all exciting and interesting stuff, but the overwhelming majority of people in most Western markets still go to a physical bank to do their transactions. I think finance is too personal for most people. I think this is also why you have, like, relatively low crypto adoption rates globally, because it is still a hairy problem dealing with finances. So, again. It's very exciting in the sense of, like, being able to see what you can do. I've seen, like, Revolut's kind of, you know, AI program internally. It's kind of like an advanced version of Siri, where it's not really that useful, but it's, like, kind of fun. Again, I think we're so, like, people in crypto can opine on this because we've seen how long it's taken for, you know, people to even adopt digital payments as a service. I think it'll take a while before agentic payments really takes off. I think it's a very strong narrative, though, for the biggest fintechs in the world that want to kind of push this idea forward. But I don't think it's going to get much user traction, probably for the foreseeable future, while these kind of, you know, AI personal agents are still in their nascent stages.

16:36護城河與市場區隔：新型銀行如何勝出？

16:36Rain 支援超過 200 個卡片計畫，彼此也會競爭。你們的護城河是什麼？是牌照、技術還是分發能力？No, Sean, Rain powers all these programs, 200 over card programs that obviously compete with each other, including the two of you. Where's the moat, actually? Is it the licenses that you hold, the tech that this guy's built, or the distribution that these guys have? Where do you think the moat, sir?

16:53其實三者都有。Rain 的穩定幣基礎設施很有差異化，但最重要的還是合作夥伴在我們平台上建構的產品，他們才是真正分發產品、取得使用者的人。我們只是協助他們，沒有夥伴我們什麼都不是。So I think it's a combination. Of all three, really. The stablecoin infrastructure issuing stack that Rain has put together is quite differentiated. But at the end of the day, our partners and what they build on top of our platform is our moat, right? We do what we can to empower them and build for them, but they're the ones distributing the product, acquiring the customers, and we're here to empower them. So a combination of all three, but without our partners, we'd kind of be nothing.

17:29全球市場與區域化策略

17:29你們現在看到的需求主要來自哪些地區？美國、歐洲、拉美、東南亞、非洲？你們最看好哪些市場？And now, from your positions, like where do you see demand coming from? Is it U.S., Europe, LATAM, Southeast Asia, Africa? Which markets are you most bullish on?

17:41每家新型銀行狀況不同。我們基本上全球（除了北美）都是目標市場，北美使用者很少。拉美、歐洲部分國家、東南亞是我們成長最快的區域。大約有 15 個國家是我們的重點市場。Yeah, I think it's different for every neobank, crypto neobank. We, so we're pretty much like the entire world except for North America is like our market. We have very few users in North America for a lot of reasons. But yeah, for us, like LATAM, chunks of Europe, Southeast Asia, that's where a lot of our growth is coming from. How many countries do you guys serve? There's about 15 markets that, like, are meaningful for us. 15 countries. The big ones.

18:17其實這很像石油產業，全球都有需求，但每個地區的「開採成本」不同。全球各地都有使用者需求，重點是在哪裡最容易取得、使用者最渴望。通常是在高消費力但銀行服務不佳的地區，或是完全沒銀行服務的地方。像 GCC、亞太、歐洲都有很大需求。Yeah, I mean, I think it's much more of a regional game over time, and it's kind of like oil in the sense that there's oil globally. There's just a price of extraction of how much it will cost you to go and get that oil. So as the demand scales globally, like there's demand for this product everywhere in the world right now, and we can get a user everywhere in the world within reason, obviously not sanctioned countries, etc. But the problem becomes where are you seeing it just the easiest and where do people want it the most? And we find that it's pretty typically in high-spending power countries or regions that don't have good, you know, banking access. So it's like one end or the other end of the spectrum. I think, you know, when it comes to, like, targeted markets, targeted focus, we see a lot of demand in the GCC, we see a lot of demand in APAC broadly, we see a lot of demand in Europe, surprisingly. So it's all over the place.

19:16我們看到的採用率最高的地方，就是「金流摩擦」最大的地方。像拉美貨幣波動大，大家想要美元存取權；成熟市場則看重穩定幣結算效率。Rain 可以一週七天跟 Visa 清算，傳統銀行只能照銀行營業時間，這種資本效率對合作夥伴很重要，但對持卡人是看不到的。最終使用者感受到的是更高回饋、更好體驗，背後的基礎設施其實很隱形。Yeah, so across the board, globally, we're seeing—the most adoption where the friction of money is the greatest. So in Latin America, for example, you might have volatile currencies. They want U.S. dollar access. That can be the product, right? In more mature markets, the efficiency of the stablecoin issuing stack is the product that is invisible to the end consumer. So, for example, Rain settles with Visa seven days a week. Traditional banks need to adhere to traditional banking hours. That alone creates so much capital efficiency for our partners that is somewhat invisible to the end cardholders. But, you know, hearing these guys talk about the increased rewards and things that they can provide, that's the thing that kind of flows down to the end cardholders, and they can't see that invisible infrastructure behind the scenes.

20:05區域化競爭與產品差異化

20:05新型銀行要怎麼區隔、搶市佔？你們怎麼看？And how do you see, like, neobanks differentiating themselves to win market share? I mean, you have it. I'm curious to hear from you guys here.

20:13我認為未來會是區域化發展，每家新型銀行都會專注在特定市場。現在整體使用者數還很小，像我們大概有 60 萬帳戶、15 萬張卡，這在全球金融體系裡根本不算什麼。要做到千萬、五千萬使用者，一定要有很強的在地化服務。每個國家都有自己的 QR 支付、轉帳系統、退休帳戶、社群媒體，沒有一套方案能通吃全球。要做大就必須在每個國家都建立團隊、拿到當地牌照、發行在地卡片、穩定幣、金流，這非常繁瑣，所以大家會挑幾個市場深耕，其他人則選擇不同市場。Yeah, I actually think regionally is probably what it's going to look like. You're going to have folks that specialize. Like right now, I think all of these crypto neobanks... are working off of a very small user base, relatively speaking. Like, we've got, I don't know, like 600K accounts, maybe like 150K cards, something like that. Like, that's a very small number. Like, that's, in the grand scheme of things, like, that's not a serious, you know, global financial player. It gets interesting once we get into, like—10 million users, 50 million users. The only way we're going to do that is by having really good local offers. Like, you look at any random country, right? They have—Their own, you know, QR payment thing. They've got their own, you know, transfer system between, you know, between banks. So, like here you've got things, FastPay or something. In Brazil, they have Pix, and they have their own, you know, retirement accounts, and there's probably like a bunch of different flavors, and all, like there's all this special stuff, and they use different social media, you know, in every, you know, pretty much every. Region, like here, you know, or around here, like Line is really big. Brazil, like Instagram is the thing. So, like, there's no one-size-fits-all. Like, yeah, for the couple hundred K users in crypto, fine, that each probably have all of these, you know, cards and pick the ones with the best rewards. But if you want to go beyond that, you got to really specialize in every country. Like, you got to have a team, you got to have licenses, like VASP, MSB, whatever the license you need there to actually market in that region and issue local cards, local stablecoin, local rails. So that's just so much work. That I think, you know, products are going to specialize, and we'll pick, you know, five or ten markets we're really good at and, like, hopefully dominate there. And I think others will pick different markets. Like, to just, like, Red Dot Pay, for example, which is the, I think, the largest player, like, we never compete with them. We don't see them at all because they operate in completely different markets than we do. The market, the licenses, that that's the moat, basically. Yeah, yeah.

22:33還有產品垂直領域的差異。不同市場使用者需求不同，有些人重視收益，有些人重視介面，有些人重視金流出入。每個區域答案都不同，我們雖然是全球產品，但不可能同時進軍一百個國家，必須逐步驗證、慢慢擴展。Yeah, I think there's also just product verticals and areas that people want to, you know, focus on a little bit more. I think for us, it's, you know, it's far and away always going to be a regional thing, but—There's also enhancements that certain users want in certain markets that might differentiate the product more. Maybe some people care more about having a good earn profile. Maybe some people care more about a UI. Maybe some people care more about the rails that, you know, people can pay in and pay out, and so on and so forth. So it really just depends, and it's a very different answer in every single region. And again, similarly, we cannot be—we are a global, you know. Kind of audience, but at the same time, we can't go to a hundred countries at once and do the same process. It's just, it's iterative. It takes time, and you want to prove it over a long enough period of time.

23:43企業使用者與產品體驗：B2B 機會

23:43你們會考慮發展企業卡、企業金庫、B2B 嗎？還是消費者市場才是最大機會？And do you think, like, going beyond consumer into corporate cards, treasuries, B2B, they're like a bigger opportunity for you guys, or, like, consumer is kind of where the big growth opportunity is, like at least for now before going down B2B?

23:59企業使用者其實很重要，現在已經佔我們業務大約 15%，而且更有利潤。企業使用者不在乎現金回饋、代幣、機場貴賓室，他們只要能順利營運就好。所以企業市場很大。我們會繼續投入這塊。No, corporate is great. Yeah, it's a meaningful size of our business actually now is our corporate offer, and we're planning to continue, like, really investing in that product. It's—It's probably like 15% of our volume or something right now. I'm giving away trade secrets here. But yeah, it's pretty meaningful, and it's also much more profitable. Again, trade secrets. Because for corporate users, they don't really care about cash back. You don't need to give them, you know, tokens or perks or lounge passes. They just want to be able to, like, run their business. Really easily. So, yeah. So I think corporate is huge. Yeah. Do you guys do corporate?

24:49我們還沒上線企業方案，但所有產品線都會考慮。重點還是要讓使用者體驗無摩擦、介面可靠。對於非加密原生使用者來說，他們不想看到合約地址、不想搞錯小數點或穩定幣鏈，這些細節我們都要做到最好，才能不斷迭代產品、吸引更多使用者。It's not live. Okay. Wow. So many secrets being shared today on stage. Thanks, Mike. I'm kidding. But no, I think all of these product verticals, I think we'll, you know, we're thinking through it and—For us, it really just depends on, again, going down, making a very delightful user experience, you know, up and down the app, making it such that people have no friction, that they can always have a reliable kind of banking interface. And I think we're asking users to do a lot, right? I think outside of the group that, you know, Mike has highlighted, right, crypto natives, we have used MetaMask and Rabby and other wallets over a long enough period of time. I think, like, people are just now like, wow, like you could have good UI. It's like, who could have thought, right? But I think if you want to get to the next level of users who want to use, you know, a safe-feeling app, they don't want to see a contract address. They don't want to see, you know, like, I got the wrong decimal here or sending the wrong stablecoin to the wrong chain and all this stuff. So that matters a lot more to us to get right. And I think—Then you can have product iteration, you know, over and over again over a long enough period of time. So again, like, it will inevitably happen, but it's just how we get there.

26:12本地穩定幣與全球支付：下一步挑戰

26:12我們現在講穩定幣，幾乎都指美元穩定幣。但如果要做區域化，世界各地其實都用本地貨幣。你們覺得未來卡片會支援本地穩定幣嗎？When we talk about stablecoin, we all refer to USD stablecoins. Obviously, if you're playing a regional game, like the rest of the world don't really use—only the U.S. use USD. I mean, a few different countries use USD, but like if you go, like, different countries, obviously there's demand from people in these countries to want to use USD. But like, do you see, like, cards evolving in the future to have local stablecoins in the future?

26:36一定會。現在用美元穩定幣的多半是數位遊牧族或加密圈，這只是很小的市場。一般人領本地貨幣薪水，想要直接存入本地貨幣，不會用純美元產品當日常帳戶，頂多當旅遊或 off-ramp 用。要跟本地金融科技競爭，必須深度整合本地金流、發行本地穩定幣、支援本地存取款。這些都很難，但要成功就得做。Yeah, 100%. I mean, that's, again, that's where you go from, like, the digital nomads and crypto people. Who are just, for whatever reason, they've got a bunch of, you know, crypto and stables in, you know, in Brazil, for example. Great, okay, that's like this tiny segment of the market that, you know, we can target. But a normal person in Brazil or otherwise, like they get paid in their local currency, right? They want to be able to deposit. They're never going to use—Like a pure U.S. dollar-denominated product as their day-to-day. Maybe they'll use it as a travel thing. Maybe they'll use it as a way to off-ramp their, you know, their sketchy crypto. But they're not going to use it as, like, their primary day-to-day. And they're going to—it's essentially impossible for a player like us to compete with, like, the really sometimes good local fintech players. Without having, like, those really deep local integrations. So absolutely, that means local stablecoin, one-to-one fiat to stablecoin deposits, one-to-one spending, all of this, like, really hard stuff that needs to be done. You know, you got to do it if you're going to be successful.

27:48而且用美元卡在新加坡消費，每筆都要換匯，進出都被收兩次手續費，還要補貼現金回饋，這對一般使用者不划算。要做到真正跟本地金融科技競爭，必須有本地牌照、本地穩定幣、本地金流整合，這是我們 2027 年 ether.fi 的重點。But you also save money as well, because if you have a USD card and you're spending in Sing dollars, every transaction has these, like, FX conversion. Exactly, yeah. It's actually, it's a double FX, because you get FX on the way in to convert to USD, and you get FX on the way out, and then you're having to pay a bunch of cash back to subsidize that, and so everyone's—Kind of doing the math, like, well, okay, I pay 20 bips to get in, and I pay 30 bips to get out, and, but the cash back is this, and it's, and it's like, well, again, for crypto degens, maybe that's okay. For a normal, like, you know, Brazilian grandmother is never going to do that. They're just not going to use the product. So, so we're, this is like 2027 for—For ether.fi is like turning on all these local licenses, local stablecoins, local fiat rails, local banking integrations to make it truly one-to-one competitive with any local fintech.

28:44我也同意，未來會有更多本地穩定幣。很多國家規定薪資必須用本地貨幣發放，所以一定會有需求。Rain 的理念是互通性，我們不認為強迫使用者用自家穩定幣的公司會贏，真正贏家是讓使用者不用思考自己用哪種穩定幣的公司。Anything else to add from you guys? Yeah, I'd just add that that's exactly right. I think we're going to see more localized stablecoins. There's a lot of rules and regulations around paying payroll in your local currency, so just because of that we'll see it. But at Rain, our thesis is kind of interoperability, right? Like, we don't think the company at the end of the day is going to win that tries to get you to force—forces you to use their own stablecoin. It's the company and the companies that get you to not think about the stablecoin that you're going to use.

29:18雖然 EURC 開始有成長，但 99% 穩定幣市場還是美元。大家還是想持有美元，雖然本地支付用本地金流有優勢，但大家還是想存美元。只要這點沒變，我們就不會改變核心策略，頂多後台架構會調整，但使用者不會感覺到。Yeah, I mean, you know, EURC is already starting to get traction, but I think there's a reason why 99% of the market for stablecoins is in USD. People want to hold dollars, and I think there's obviously, like, an advantage to using, you know, local rails when people are paying locally, but people still want to hold dollars. And I think until that changes, it's not going to be a dramatic—Change for us in terms of, you know, the core focus, maybe the backend architecture that no one should care about will be different for us. But again, people want to hold USDN until that's not true. We won't really deviate from that, really.

29:55結語：加密新型銀行的未來

29:55時間差不多了，謝謝大家！All right, we're up of time. Thank you very much, guys. Thanks a bunch.