Stellar：U.S. Bank 的穩定幣，先怎麼跨境？

4:38:17開場

4:38:17好，大家好。我是 Viktor，來自 Cointelegraph，今天與 Raja Chakravorti 對談。Raja 你好。嗨 Viktor。直入主題：stablecoin 在真實經濟的應用大概是產業現在最大主題之一；更重要的是，Stellar 在敘事上遠早於其他人就在建這件事。All right. Hello, everyone. Little check over here. My name is Viktor. I'm from Cointelegraph, and today I'm joined by Raja Chakravorti. Hello, Raja. Hey, Viktor. To get straight to the point, stablecoins and the applications in the real economy is probably one of the major topics in the industry right now. And what's even more important, that Stellar was building in the narrative way, way before everybody else.

4:38:52所以你大概是回答「為什麼是現在」、高層策略問題的最佳人選。今年最近改變了什麼，讓這一切可能發生？謝謝，這對我們是很好的宣傳。Stellar 自 2014 年就存在，想想還挺 phenomenal。So probably you're the best person to ask a high-level, strategically, why-now question. So what changed recently, this year, so all of that could be happening? Yeah, by the way, I really like it. That's kind of like a nice commercial for us, so thank you so much. So we have been around since 2014, which is really phenomenal if you think about it.

4:39:17對 Stellar 來說很 fascinating；我約兩年前加入，不能 claim 網路 uptime 的功勞，但網路展現的穩定性是最有價值的面向之一，對我們如何擴張很重要。I think what has been really fascinating to see for Stellar and, you know, candidly, I joined the organization about two years ago, so I can't claim responsibility for the network uptime. But I think it's one of the most valuable aspects of the network, is that it's a network that has just very well demonstrated stability, and that has been really important as we think about how we're looking to expand.

4:39:39你問題裡的 point 是：架構早就存在。事實上，在還沒被叫 stablecoin 之前，價值就在 Stellar 上傳輸；為全球支付、remittance、跨境而設計，這就是 Stellar 要做的事。I think you're kind of touching on the point embedded in the question, is that the architecture has been there for a long time. In fact, stablecoins were transmitting on Stellar before they were called stablecoins. Transmission of value designed for global payments, remittances, any cross-border payment, that was really what Stellar was designed to do.

4:40:00但改變的是架構以外的一切：監管環境，美國 GENIUS Act、歐洲 MiCA 等，這是最大的驅動之一。But I think what changed is all of the stuff outside of the architecture. Specifically, you have changes in the regulatory environment. Certainly, you know, the GENIUS Act in the United States, MiCA in Europe. I think all of these different things, that has been one of the biggest drivers. That has really been changing what's been going on. I think the piece that is really important is when you're looking at actually transmitting value across networks, the fact that the stablecoins can be accepted on well-known networks that

4:40:39Visa 與出入金改變

4:40:39銀行與其他人會信任的 well-known 網路，像 Visa、PayPal、Stripe，現在也都能讓 stablecoin 在上面流動，這給信心，不只是 isolated use cases。banks and others would trust, like Visa, like PayPal, like Stripe. All of these networks have now also absorbed the ability to have stablecoins move across them. I think that is the piece that is giving confidence beyond, you know, kind of isolated use cases.

4:40:56歸根究底是 on-ramp/off-ramp 能力：某人某地收到 stablecoin，要能 off-ramp 到本地銀行帳戶、行動錢包。And then ultimately, I think it really comes down to the ability to on- and off-ramp. So when we think about where we were going and what we were doing with distributing value at a global scale, it was always very, very important for us that when somebody received a stablecoin in a region, that they could off-ramp that, whether that be to a local bank account, a mobile wallet.

4:41:19也能用我們的 partner MoneyGram 在實體據點兌現。這些都變了，事件匯流開始形成我認為的真正加速。Be able to use a partner like MoneyGram of ours to actually be able to cash out at an actual physical location. I think all of those things are what have changed, and that confluence of these events together have started to create what I think is a real acceleration.

4:41:35好，謝謝，確實有 momentum。你提到銀行與 Web3 原生 infra 之間的信任；上個月 U.S. Bank 完成與 Stellar 合作、用自家 stablecoin 的首筆跨境交易，恭喜。All right, thank you. Yeah, we definitely have a momentum. Speaking of which, and you touched on the trust between the bank and the Web3 native infra. Last month, there was quite a signal from U.S. Bank, that they had completed the first cross-border transaction in partnership with Stellar using their own stablecoin.

4:41:59想借你 Web3 前的銀行業經驗問：銀行要建立信任、上 public chain 前，需要看到什麼？And which is great news, and congratulations with that. But in that regard, I'd like to refer to your pre-Web3 experience in the banking sector. So what is this thing or set of things that banks require to establish this?

4:42:19跟 U.S. Bank 合作很棒。他們發行 USBDC，完成跨境 internal settlement 交易。trust, and they want to see before they are ready to go live on the public chain. Yeah, I mean, it was fantastic. It was an awesome experience working with U.S. Bank. We're really excited for where it goes. So they have their stablecoin that they issued, USBDC, and they were able to complete that cross-border transaction for internal settlement, which is

4:42:39跟金融機構談：我在 JPMorgan、Goldman 待過，銀行不是被酷科技 inspire，而是「風險委員會過得去嗎？合規委員會呢？」fantastic. I think when you're talking to, you know, a financial institution—look, I worked at a few of them. I worked at JPMorgan. I worked at Goldman Sachs. Like, banks aren't inspired by, like, really cool tech. Like, this is what I want to go do. It's, can I get this past my risk committee? Can I get this past my compliance committee? Like, what are all of those elements?

4:42:59銀行要的不只是酷科技

4:42:59那些不 sexy 的東西必須 absolutely clear，才能談科技價值；所以很多銀行想先 pilot、先 engagement。All of the unsexy stuff is what really needs to be absolutely clear before you're able to actually talk about the value of the technology, which is why I think we've seen a lot of folks, a lot of these banks, thinking about, like, hey, how do I do, like, a pilot?

4:43:14通常有 digital assets 團隊，跟我們同一邊，對內部關卡推進。How do I start to engage? And what you end up finding is you typically have a digital assets team within these banks, and they're typically working on the same side as us to sell against these internal gates that they have to be able to get to.

4:43:29U.S. Bank 案例說明我強調的故事：網路展現強 infra、uptime、穩定、低成本、finality 結算。And so that was one of these pieces where the work we did with U.S. Bank, I think, really illustrated the story that I was highlighting, which is being a network that has shown, you know, tremendous, tremendously strong infrastructure with its infrastructure, with its uptime, with the stability, with the low cost, with the ability to settle with finality.

4:43:56這些都必須為真，要高 performance；承作一筆 trade 要知道 settlement 是 final，也要有 institutional controls。All of these things have to be true. It has to be high performance. You have to know that if you underwrite, you know, a trade, that that settlement is final, but that there's also institutional controls in place.

4:44:08我們談 stablecoin，但對金融機構，焦點是 blockchain 如何 reformat 整個技術層；stablecoin 之外，其他資產能否用同一技術、distribution 時能否有 controls？And so we're talking about stablecoins, but ultimately, as we're talking to these financial institutions, their focus isn't just on the stablecoin piece. It is, how do we think about the complete picture of blockchain reformatting the technology layer that we're looking at? And so they think about it with a stablecoin perspective, but also what can we do with these other assets that we have?

4:44:28這讓很多機構安心：先從 stablecoin 開始，下一個資產能否 asset controls？若到錯的人手能否 freeze、clawback？不是 desire，而是解 risk/compliance 問題。Can we take advantage of the same technology? And if and when we do, and we think about distribution of those assets, can we have controls in place? And I think this is the fundamental piece that has allowed us to gain comfort with a lot of these financial institutions, is they say, okay, let's start with the stablecoin, but when we get to the next thing, is there the ability to have asset controls in place?

4:44:48這是我們對機構溝通的完整圖像。And is there the ability that if this asset gets in the hands of the wrong user, that you're able to freeze that asset, be able to claw that back? Not that that's the desire, but being able to resolve these issues that are coming in from these risk and compliance teams. I think that's the full picture that we're really seeing, and that's really what we're trying to do and communicate to institutions broadly.

4:45:10RWA 與穩定幣同鏈

4:45:10好，謝謝。要在市場待夠久才建信任、接既有 risk systems。你提到資產，stablecoin 離不開 tokenization；Stellar 在這塊也成功，能再詳述兩者如何一起運作、如何反映到真實使用者體驗？Yeah, all right. Thank you. Quite interesting. I think that's true, that you need to be on the market for some time to gain trust and to plug into the existing risk systems. You mentioned the assets, and obviously we can't think of stablecoins without thinking about the assets being tokenized too.

4:45:29對，這就是我們在做的：不要 silo 思考，要想如何連起來。And I know that Stellar is quite successful on that front as well. And you started telling the story about that, but could you elaborate a bit more in detail? So how these two work together, and how will that be translated to the real economy and the real users' experience?

4:45:48怎麼 fund 資產購買？交付資產時 settlement 長怎樣？如何把 legs 合在一起？我們 focus 在 blockchain 內 unify 不同資產類型的 interoperability。Yeah, I mean, I think that's really what we're trying to do here. Like, I think it's important not to think about these in silos, but to think about how all of these things connect together.

4:45:59Stellar 上 asset tokenization 今年很成功，成長 4 倍，鏈上 RWA 剛突破 40 億美元，trajectory 指數成長。How do you fund an asset purchase? How do you, when you kind of deliver the asset, what does the settlement of that asset look like? And how do you basically bring these legs together? And ultimately, what we've really tried to focus on is, well, you unify within a blockchain this interoperability between asset types, and— So, you know, we've had a very successful year as it relates to asset tokenization on Stellar. We grew 4x.

4:46:27上鏈的有 tokenized money market funds、structured products、private credit、commodities 等；它們要合在一起，asset delivery 與 payment 同時發生，DVP 要在同一交易 atomic 完成。We, you know, just eclipsed $4 billion of real-world assets on the blockchain with just, you know, exponential trajectory, I think, in our future, knock on wood. I think everything will hopefully go really well with that. But I think a lot of these assets that are coming on board, we're talking about, like, tokenized money market funds, we're talking about different structured products, we're talking about private credit, and a whole slew of, like, commodities, other potential exotic asset types, which I think potentially have a lot of value as well.

4:46:59若只 tokenize 一 leg，payment leg 不在同一系統，仍有 gap，像傳統金融：想買 tokenized asset 得 wire Funding、接另一條 chain。But all of this stuff, they have to come together so that when you're looking for asset delivery and payment happening at the same time, the DVP is actually happening atomically within the same transaction. And in particular, I think what's really important is ensuring that, hey, look, if you tokenize one leg, but you don't have kind of the payment leg

4:47:19會有 time delta，這是我們要解的 risk；bring together 是我們非常 focus 的事，確保有足夠流動性讓交易發生。tokenized on the same system on the other side, you're still having this, like, gap issue that I think has been pervasive across traditional financial systems, right? It's like, oh, I want to buy this tokenized asset, but I have to go fund it via wire and, like, go connect to this other chain.

4:47:33同一鏈上的 DVP

4:47:33time delta 是我們要解的 risk；bring together 與確保流動性是我們 go-to-market 的重要部分。You're having this kind of this time delta, which is the risk that we're actually trying to solve for, and so bringing together is something that we've been really, really focused on doing, ensuring there's enough liquidity to make sure we're having these transactions happen.

4:47:48right，你剛 touch 我下一題：money 與 assets 在同一 chain 有多重要？很多 chain 會稀釋流動性。That's really been, I think, a really important part of how we've tried to go to market. Right, and you just touched on the question that I was supposed to ask, the next one, which is: how important is it . .

4:47:59sorry 我太 excited 跳題了。我們 focus 把 things bring together on chain；infra 要一起 work，interop 與 unify liquidity 很重要，delivery 與 payment 要 atomic。to have both money and assets present on the one chain, because obviously we see many infrastructure pieces and many blockchains and many companies that are trying to take their place on the market, and they're all going to dilute the liquidity in a sense.

4:48:19我們要降成本、提效率，網路上可用資產也要能以同樣方式被 fund。How do you tackle that? So since you do have quite a decent amount of assets tokenized on-chain, and you're going towards the stablecoins too, but as well as others, how are you connecting to them?

4:48:32我對 RWA future excited：stablecoin 一大 form 是 payment，有些 RWA 開始像 payment-like systems。Yeah, well, sorry, I got really excited, so I wanted to jump ahead with you and, you know, do all that. Yeah, I mean, I think that's exactly what we're focused on doing, is ensuring that we're bringing these things together on the chain.

4:48:47Franklin Templeton BENJI 是好例子，團隊很 forward-thinking 于 payment-like RWA。I think that really is the gap that we have. And so, you know, when I think about, like, an infrastructure, an infrastructure has to work together. These are not, like, separate improvements. This is why interoperability is so important. That is why unifying, I think, you know, liquidity is really important. It's ensuring that delivery and payment can happen atomically, because ultimately that's what we're trying to solve for.

4:49:11用 BENJI 支付時，不只是 static value，而是隨時間 work 的東西；對新興市場 supplier 的 B2B 支付可去風險並創 incremental value。We're trying to remove the cost, we're trying to create the efficiency, and we need to be able to do that by ensuring that whatever assets are available on the network, they can be funded also in the same way that all of these things can happen together. I'm really excited about, like, this future for real-world assets where, you know, when we talk about stablecoins, we talk about them in a lot of different forms.

4:49:32他們 app 內可做 BENJI P2P payment：payment asset 在非 transit 時間也在 work，創 incremental value。One of the major forms is payment. What we're starting to see with some of the real-world assets is that they can be used in payment-like systems, and we're really, really excited about that. I think Franklin Templeton's BENJI token is a good example of something where that team has been very forward-thinking in terms of what do they do with it.

4:49:52BENJI 與支付型 RWA

4:49:52Franklin Templeton 是 tokenized MMF 早期採用者，2021 起在 Stellar，multi-chain 但很多 value 在 Stellar。And so, you know, full disclosure, Franklin Templeton has been an early adopter for tokenized money market funds. I think most you folks are aware of that. That's been on the Stellar network effectively since inception with them in 2021. Certainly it's multi-chain, but you see a lot of this value sitting on Stellar, and the books and records remain on Stellar.

4:50:12未來 B2B：付新興市場 supplier，immediate payment 去掉 key risks，supplier 更有效，還有 incremental value accretion。I think one of the cool things they did is allow for, within their app, the ability to do peer-to-peer payments using BENJI. And that's really exciting because it shows this value that says, okay, I'm going to have a payment asset.

4:50:25這是我們開始 unlock 的 virtuous cycle，很 exciting。asset 在一 chain、payment rail 在另一 chain 怎麼 marry？That payment asset is going to be at work in the time when it's not in transit, meaning that it's actually driving utility. It's creating incremental value. And now when I use that as a payment asset, I'm not just transferring, like, a static value, but I'm transferring something that works over time.

4:50:40理想上 everything 都來 Stellar（笑）。multi-chain 與 interoperability 是我們 belief。And if you think about the future set of that, now you can start thinking about how these are the assets that are going to be so valuable in B2B transactions. If you think about paying a supplier that sits in an emerging market, showing that being able to send a payment to that supplier immediately takes out key risks.

4:50:59我們宣布 partnership，透過 LayerZero 把 Tether 帶到 Stellar，USDT0 會來，可深度接入 Tether ecosystem liquidity，而不必 silo liquidity。It allows for that supplier to be more effective in terms of, you know, getting to different resources, but also creates this incremental value accretion that they have. And so now you're actually giving them incremental value to, you know, buy more supplies, create more product, sell more things, and that should be this virtuous cycle.

4:51:17而不必 fracture、silo liquidity 在單一 blockchain；你要 liquidity、DVP 一起 operate。And I think that's what we're starting to unlock, which is really, really exciting. Right, but how would you tackle the issue when still, when the asset is on one chain and the payment rail is on another, and you need to marry these two?

4:51:32還是有各種版本；Stellar 內最高效機制是我們積極讓不同 asset types 上鏈，native assets on blockchain。Yeah, I think, I mean, well, ideally everything just comes to Stellar, so anyone who's building that, that would be great. I think that is definitely one of the issues that we're trying to figure out. I mean, certainly, we work with some providers who are really focused on very much this idea of, like, how do you create that interoperability?

4:51:52前一 panel 有人說 euro stablecoin 不太成功（不是我的 quote）；對 local non-USD stables 我們有 view：local stables 很重要，off-ramp、transferability 在其經濟體有價值。And we believe in this multi-chain world, and we believe in interoperability. You know, in fact, we actually announced a partnership that is now bringing Tether to Stellar, and it is through LayerZero. And so the USDT0 version of Tether is going to come to Stellar, and that's really exciting because it allows for accessing liquidity at depth across the Tether ecosystem, but not necessarily having to

4:52:19USDT0 與跨鏈流動性

4:52:19我們要建系統：用美元付、atomic 結算成 pesos 再 off-ramp；Stellar path payments 讓 FX 在鏈上立即發生，只要兩邊 asset 都有。you know, fracture, like, you know, having, like, having siloed liquidity within, like, a single blockchain, because I think ultimately that's the thing you're trying to avoid. You're trying to figure out how do you have liquidity, how do you have DVP, how do you have all of these things operate all together.

4:52:35這會創更多效率，我們會持續 push。USDT0 對亞洲尤其 relevant，USDT 基本是主要支付 stablecoin。But, you know, there's versions of this that happen. I think ultimately the most efficient mechanism that we're trying to showcase within Stellar, and that's why we're very active in terms of having different asset types come on board, is really making sure we're able to have some of those native assets on the blockchain.

4:52:52這可能是引入亞洲 local stablecoin 的第一步。轉到監管 clarity，對產業發展幫助很大。I think in the panel previously, there was some discussion point about, like, euro stablecoins not really being particularly successful. That's not my quote. That was somebody else. But even still, I know there's varied points of view as it relates to, like, local stables that are, you know, non-U.S. dollar-denominated.

4:53:11我們在亞洲，你怎麼評估亞洲監管定位？CLARITY Act 稍 stall，亞洲有潛力在全球 stablecoin 採用與開發領先嗎？And I think we have a point of view that those local stables matter a lot because creating an efficient mechanism for, like, off-ramping, transferability, as we see different things happen, like those will have potential value within their own economies.

4:53:27作為 non-Asian 我來談較熟的市場（笑）。GENIUS Act 是美國很多機構的 unlock；tokenization 是 accelerant。And we want to be able to create a system where you can be able to pay in U.S. dollars and settle in pesos in an atomic transaction, and then be able to off-ramp it. And that's why, you know, within the Stellar blockchain, we've got these path payments, which allow for the FX to happen on the blockchain immediately, as long as you have kind of both sides of the asset.

4:53:48CLARITY stall 但 SEC 仍 effectively bless 很多 tokenization 側的事；stablecoin rewards 等仍有問題，我不在此 opine。And I think that's where you're going to start to create more efficiency, and we're going to continue to push on that sector. All right, all right, thank you. And I think it seems like this initiative with USDT0 is especially relevant for Asia, where USDT is basically the main and predominant stablecoin and the mean of payments at the moment.

4:54:10momentum 很多。在 APAC 很 amazing，我們開始 significant view；MAS 等 regulator forward-thinking，新加坡、香港都有 momentum。And this may be the first step to what you mentioned, to the introduction of the new local stablecoins here in Asia. But I would turn the conversation to one other thing that you mentioned, which is the regulatory clarity, which helps a lot this industry to develop.

4:54:32亞洲監管與領導力

4:54:32不同法域都有 leadership 機會。我來 APAC 最 excited 的是熟悉 digital assets 的人 sheer size；Tether 在這裡 well-known，西方不一定。Since we're here in Asia, how would you assess the positioning, the regulatory positioning of Asia? And with the CLARITY Act stalling a little bit, does Asia have the potential to take the leadership position worldwide in stablecoin adoption and development?

4:54:52ground-up velocity，加上部分亞洲 regulator 正面 viewpoint，real opportunity。現實是 blockchain global、regulation local。Yeah. So, as a non-Asian, I'm going to go ahead and start opining on the market that I'm less familiar with, though. . So I think it's really interesting. I think the GENIUS Act was the real unlock for a lot of institutions, I think, in the U.S.

4:55:09每個市場都會不同，這既是 blocker，也是可以被解決的機會。We work with a lot of financial institutions, again, a lot on the tokenization side. I think that was this accelerant for a lot of folks to start really stepping foot into tokenization. And regardless of the stall with CLARITY, I think we still saw the SEC come in and effectively come in and basically bless a lot of the things that were happening on that side.

4:55:31快結束了：給還在 sideline 的全球公司、銀行、支付公司、政府什麼建議？在 momentum 與 velocity 增加時仍 lag、hesitate 的 entity？Of course, there are still some questions around, like, you know, stablecoin rewards and things like that. And I'm not necessarily here to opine on where that all sits. I just see that there's been a lot of momentum. It's amazing to be here in Asia-Pacific. We've been starting to take a significant view here, and I think you have these regulators that I think are fairly forward-thinking, like the MAS.

4:55:55now is the time to build。現在還好，再晚就 late。We work, you know, with them here in Singapore. We're seeing, I think, a lot of momentum that's happening there. I think in Hong Kong, we've seen a lot of value happen. I do think there's an opportunity for leadership to come in different jurisdictions.

4:56:11回到 interoperability 與 fragmentation：launch 自家 stablecoin 現在很容易，但 liquidity depth 與 usage 才是關鍵；我可能看到圍繞已有 demonstrated value 的 stablecoin 某種 consolidation。The thing that I'm always so excited about when I come to APAC is the sheer size of folks who are familiar with digital assets already. Whether it be through different means, different, you know, different assets that they've used, I think Tether is a very well-known sort of asset in a way that you don't necessarily see in the Western Hemisphere.

4:56:34若還沒 really build，現在 build 才能 transformational impact；更多人會 adopt 已有 momentum 的資產。just build。And so, given this velocity that is happening from the ground up, and then I think you know, within some of the Asian markets, you see these regulators coming in with a positive viewpoint. I think there's this real opportunity. I think the reality is, like, it's this funny thing, which is, you know, blockchain is global, but regulation is local.

4:56:53給觀望者的建議

4:56:53每個市場都會不同；這對還在觀望者是 blocker，也是機會。And so every market is going to be different. And ultimately, I think that is a blocker, but that is the opportunity for that to be solved. Yeah, we're getting close to the end. So, following up on what you just said, I'd like to ask you to give the advice to those worldwide companies, banks, payment companies, governments that are yet still on the sidelines, within all this process, within all this momentum and the velocity increasing, that are still lagging behind and hesitating for some reason.

4:57:32now is the time to build。現在還 fine，wait 太久就 late。What would be your message and what would be your advice to such entities within the process? Yeah, I think now is the time to build. I think, you know, it is—now is a fine time, but I think if you wait a lot longer, it's going to be late. Just to kind of circle back to this point about, you know, interoperability, but, like, fragmentation, all of it, I think what we're going to see with a lot of the stablecoins is, you know, it's very easy now to, like, launch your own stablecoin, but

4:57:59launch stablecoin 變容易，但 liquidity depth 與 ensuring usage 才關鍵；我可能看到某種 consolidation 圍繞已有 value 的 stablecoin。it's the depth of liquidity. It's ensuring that there's usage. And so I actually view potentially a little bit more of a kind of consolidation around some of the stablecoins that have all of that value and that have demonstrated.

4:58:11若還沒 build，現在 build 才能 transformational；機構與大眾會 adopt 已有 momentum 的東西。And so I think if you're not really yet building, now is the time to build to be able to really make transformational impact, because what's going to happen is more and more institutions, more and more people are going to come to these assets and they're going to adopt the things that have the momentum that are already there.

4:58:29just build。沒別的補充。非常感謝，這類對話讓我對未來幾年更 excited。祝開發順利，再謝。And so, just build. Yeah, just build. Nothing to add here. Thank you very much. That was really valuable, and I don't know, these type of conversations make me more and more hyped and excited about the picture of the future that we are going towards and we're going to see in a couple of years.

4:58:46謝謝 Viktor。So good luck with all the development, and thank you very much again. Yeah, thanks, Viktor.