Spark：替新穩定幣做市，閒置資金怎麼辦？

5:29:34開場

5:29:34好。大家好，歡迎來到這場座談「Stablecoin Wars: Liquidity as a Battleground」。我是 Petr Hluze，經營 Nammu Capital，一家鏈上金融顧問公司，這個主題對我很近。Okay. Hello, everybody, and welcome to the panel, Stablecoin Wars: Liquidity as a Battleground. I'm Petr Hluze. I run Nammu Capital. It's an advisory company in on-chain finance, so this topic is close to home for me.

5:29:49但大家真正想聽的是 Sam MacPherson。Sam，能簡短介紹你和 Spark 嗎？好。我是 Sam MacPherson，Spark 共同創辦人兼執行長，我們做的是在 DeFi、CeFi 與 TradFi 之間做智慧資產配置。But the person you all want to hear from is Sam MacPherson. Sam, can you give us a brief intro on you and Spark? Yeah. I'm Sam MacPherson, co-founder and CEO of Spark, and what we do is intelligent asset allocation across DeFi, CeFi, and TradFi.

5:30:08我們有多項產品，算是前五大的 DeFi 協議。SparkLend 是第一項，是資金池借貸市場，規模第二，總存款約 85 億美元。Spark Savings 是國庫管理產品：在 USDC、USDT、USDS 等穩定幣上賺收益。We have a number of products. We're like a top-five DeFi protocol. SparkLend was our first product. This is a pooled lending market, second largest, $8.5 billion in total deposits. We have Spark Savings, which is a treasury management product: earn yield on USDC, USDT, USDS, and other stablecoins.

5:30:30我們也有機構借貸，做 OTC 比特幣貸款；跟今天更相關的是，我們跟 Uniswap 合作推出 stablecoin FX Layer，在 USDC、USDT、USDS 與新興穩定幣之間提供流動性。We have institutional lending, where we do OTC Bitcoin loans, and then, relevant for this talk more so, we launched the stablecoin FX Layer in partnership with Uniswap, where we provide liquidity between USDC, USDT, USDS, and then all the emerging stablecoins that are coming to market now.

5:30:53包括 PYUSD、RLUSD，也正在接入其他幣種。好。我們會談到其中幾項產品，先從較大的問題開始：若流動性是戰場，發行穩定幣變容易了，為什麼勝負在流動性？So PYUSD, RLUSD, and we're in the process of onboarding others as well. Okay, perfect. I think we'll touch on a couple of those products you mentioned, but let's start with a more general question. Let's start with the premise that liquidity is a battleground. As launching stablecoins has become much easier, why do you think that liquidity is where the war is won?

5:31:17為什麼？流動性就是一切。發行穩定幣不算簡單，但比真正放大規模、建立網路效應容易得多。Why is this? Yeah, I mean, liquidity is the whole thing. So, I mean, it's not trivial to launch a stablecoin, but it is a much easier process than actually scaling and building network effects around a stablecoin.

5:31:30新穩定幣上線常遇到「然後呢？誰要用？」往往綁在 fintech、交易所等通路；我覺得近期銀行也會更常進場。So new stablecoins, when they launch, they face the same sort of problem where you launch it and then, you know, who cares? Who's going to use it? And often these are attached to some sort of distribution channel like fintech or exchange, or I think more commonly we'll see even banks getting involved in the near future.

5:31:50新穩定幣的流動性難題

5:31:50他們可以在自己的通路裡冷啟動，但對鏈上世界，很多傳統機構仍是陌生領域；就算資產負債表很大，甚至比 DeFi 還大，也不見得願意把資產負債表押進 DeFi 這種「西部」。And so they can sort of bootstrap within their own distribution, but for the on-chain world, this is often, like, new and unexplored territory for a lot of these more traditional institutions, and so they are not necessarily—they may have large balance sheets, and a lot of them do, even much larger balance sheets than DeFi, but they are not comfortable sort of committing their own balance sheets into DeFi, which is, you know, like the Wild West.

5:32:17Spark 的角色是：我們是 DeFi 原生，從 DeFi 早期就在。我 2021 年起在 MakerDAO 工作，那時這個領域剛起來。And so where Spark comes in is that we are— DeFi natives; we've been around since the beginning of DeFi. You know, I've worked at MakerDAO since back in 2021, so that was when the space sort of emerged.

5:32:29我們懂怎麼在協議裡做風險承作與金融控制。我們幫這些穩定幣成為它們放大規模的入口，Spark 有很多管道，可以把新穩定幣接進自己的資產負債表。So we understand how to underwrite the risk and do proper smart contract and financial controls within the protocol. And so how we help these stablecoins is basically being the entry point that they can use to get their stablecoin up to size. So Spark has many, many different facilities, so we can take on these new stablecoins on our own balance sheet.

5:32:51我們從 USDS 資產負債表借款，規模已超過 100 億美元，可以動用這些流動性換成對方穩定幣，再透過 DeFi 分發，包括我們自己的 SparkLend。And so we do borrow from the USDS balance sheet, which is over $10 billion now in size. So we can draw on this liquidity, swap it to their stablecoin, and then distribute it through DeFi, including our own lending market, which is SparkLend.

5:33:06也可以透過 Morpho、Anchorage、OTC 貸款等，在各借貸平台廣泛分發；另外我們在 Uniswap 上做穩定幣做市，也就是 FX Layer，做出很深的流動性。We can do it through Morpho, as well as, you know, through Anchorage, OTC loans, basically broad distribution through all the lending platforms. And then in addition, we can do market making with the stablecoin on Uniswap. This is the stablecoin FX Layer, where we get this really deep liquidity.

5:33:25那邊的倉位大約是 2 億美元的其他穩定幣，與 USDS 配對。USDS 與 USDC 一對一兌換，Sky 持有超過 40 億 USDC，是鏈上最大持有者之一，我記得跟 Hyperliquid 並列。And so the positions there are about $200 million in other stablecoins that are paired with USDS. USDS has a one-to-one swap with USDC, and Sky holds over 4 billion in USDC, is one of the largest on-chain holders, I think alongside Hyperliquid, as the largest holder of USDC on-chain.

5:33:45新穩定幣因此能放大規模，連到 USDS，再連到 USDC、USDT。對使用者很重要：小額可能不在乎，可以走次級市場、小做市商；但要到機構級、數十億甚至上百億交易量，就需要這種大資產負債表在後面，Spark 提供的就是這個。And so all of this liquidity, these new stablecoins can get size, sort of connectivity to the larger stablecoins, USDS, and then through USDS, USDC, USDT. And so for users who use the stablecoin, this is incredibly important. If you're a small user, maybe you don't care so much. You can use secondary markets, you know, some small size with market makers.

5:34:07FX Layer 如何運作

5:34:07很全面。好，多談一下 FX Layer：上線三個月交易量超過 140 億，很驚人。能講背後機制嗎？是工具型產品，還是支撐你剛說的流動性？可以細講。FX Layer 建在 Uniswap 上，把新穩定幣跟 USDS 配對。But if you really want to get up to, you know, institutional scale, tens, hundreds, even billions of dollars in volume, you really need this large balance sheet behind it. And so this is exactly what Spark provides. Yes, it's quite comprehensive. Okay, can we talk more about your recent product, FX Layer, which did, like, over 14 billion in three months after launch, which is quite a huge volume.

5:34:33機制與定位為什麼合理？可比做市商。穩定幣發行方要冷啟動，可以發公開激勵、付做市商，或用 Spark 這類方案。Can you tell us the mechanics behind and if it's more like a utility play or it's something supporting what you just described, the liquidity? Yeah, we can get into the details on this. So the stablecoin FX Layer is a product built on top of Uniswap, where we will pair the new stablecoin against USDS.

5:34:52如前面所說，USDS 與 USDC 一對一，可大致當 USDC 用；我們也有 USDT 池在做市，跟 Tether 建立流動性。And then because, as I mentioned, USDS is one-to-one paired with USDC, you can treat it fairly interchangeably with USDC, but we also have a USDT pool that we are market making as well to build liquidity with Tether as well.

5:35:05Spark 的經濟性通常更好。公開激勵要從市場募資，能募多少不確定，也看市場利率競爭。So, like, mechanically, how this all works and why it makes sense, the comparable here is sort of like a market maker. So if you're a stablecoin issuer and you want to bootstrap your stablecoin, you can use public incentives as an option.

5:35:19做市商同樣募資難、資產負債表不大，這類流動性啟動計畫成本常是兩位數百分比；Spark 能用 USDS 資產負債表，那是鏈上最便宜資本之一。You pay a market maker, or you use a solution like Spark. And so the economics of Spark are far better for a number of reasons. So on the public incentives side, sourcing capital from the broad market is something that is difficult, and it is unknown how much you can source.

5:35:39我們是鏈上原生，已承作鏈上風險；做市商把資金放 DeFi 會加風險溢價，擔心被駭，這是我們的日常，承作流程很成熟，利率合理，又能用自家資產負債表鎖定規模與目標借貸利率。It depends on, like, competitive rates on the market. With market makers, again, like, sourcing capital is also difficult for them because they don't necessarily have large balance sheets. So the cost associated with doing these types of liquidity bootstrapping programs is often even, like, double-digit percentage in cost to get started, whereas— Spark has access to the USDS balance sheet, some of the cheapest capital available on-chain.

5:36:04以 PayPal 的 PYUSD-USDS 池為例，池子規模大約 1 億美元，50/50 分，單位成本已比替代方案低很多。And because we are on-chain native, we already underwrite the risk of on-chain, which is where a market maker, they will include this risk premium by deploying capital into DeFi. They need to be worried about hacks and stuff like this, but this is really our bread and butter, and so our— underwriting process is quite sophisticated. We are comfortable having very reasonable rates, and because we're using our own balance sheet, we can deploy to specific numbers, targeting specific borrow rates on lending markets or specific capital sizes.

5:36:34PYUSD 池與成本結構

5:36:34還有第二層節省：Spark 在 USDS 這側沒有 cash drag。1 億池子裡，Spark 只在非 USDS 那一半有 cash drag，因為 USDS 是發行方，可自由鑄造，背後不必先募資。So, I mean, using the PayPal pool, this between PYUSD and USDS, I think that pool is about 100 million in size right now. And so we have this pool basically split 50-50. So already the per-unit cost is much, much cheaper than the alternatives that are available.

5:36:52USDS 進入流通前技術細節略過，總之經濟性明顯更好，我們找到很強的 product-market fit，幾乎所有計畫上鏈的大型機構都在不同階段跟我們談，要在 FX Layer 建流動性樞紐，把 USDS 做成中心。But there's also a second cost savings, which comes from the fact that Spark does not pay— there's no cash drag on the USDS side. So, 100 million pool, for Spark, Spark only has cash drag on the half that is the stablecoin, not the USDS side, because USDS is the issuer of the stablecoin, so you can mint it freely and there's no need to, like, source capital behind that until the—

5:37:19明年 GENIUS 生效後，穩定幣會大爆發。總交易量已超過 150 億，可能到 160 億；六月上線，池子有機交易量很大，PYUSD、RLUSD 等常在 Uniswap 前五，穩定幣對穩定幣 swap 量約占 25%。USDS enters circulation. It's a little bit technical, but, like, overall, this just provides vastly superior economics, and so we found strong product-market fit. Like, we are talking with pretty much every major institution who's planning on coming on-chain at various stages of discussion, and we're going to really build out this liquidity hub on the stablecoin FX Layer and really build USDS as the central liquidity hub within the space that you really need to attach to to get access to all the other stablecoins.

5:37:49對新市場只是開始。支付更認真上鏈後，我預期這塊會成長一個數量級，鏈上穩定幣種類與互換需求都會大增。And we're going to see a huge amount of stablecoins coming to market. I think this is, especially with GENIUS coming into effect next year. Yeah, it's going to be like— a Cambrian explosion of stablecoins. So, yeah, overall, like, as you mentioned, we're over even 15 billion in total volume, maybe even 16, actually, as of today.

5:38:09我們六月上線，池子有機交易量持續進前段，PYUSD、RLUSD 等常在 Uniswap 前五；穩定幣對穩定幣 swap 量約占 25%，對新市場仍只是起步。We launched this in June. We're getting a lot of volume through the pool organically. It's pretty consistently, like, top five pools. The pairs like PYUSD, RLUSD are kind of in the top five of Uniswap pools, and stablecoin-stablecoin total swap volume is around 25% right now.

5:38:27支付更認真上鏈後，我預期穩定幣流通與互換需求都會成長一個數量級。But for a new market, I think this is just sort of the beginning. We're at, like, an initial phase. As we see payments coming on-chain in a more serious way, I expect this space to, like— like, 10x. Like, it's going to be an order-of-magnitude increase in the amount of stablecoins that are on-chain, but also needing to swap with other stablecoins.

5:38:49連接各穩定幣孤島

5:38:49好。你也提到會有更多金融機構、fintech、銀行、聯盟發穩定幣，怎麼避免流動性變成孤立池，走向更連通的金融系統？Great. And as you mentioned, like, we will see—we already see, but we will see more and more financial institutions and fintechs, banks, consortia to launch more stablecoins. So how do we avoid creating these isolated pools of liquidity and go more towards, like, a more connected financial system?

5:39:09鏈上是關鍵。很多穩定幣綁在自己的通路，會出現 silo。Yeah, on-chain. Yeah, on-chain. On-chain is the key piece. So, yeah, a lot of these, as I mentioned, a lot of these stablecoins... They do have their own distribution attached, so I think what we're going to see is, you know, these pockets of stablecoins that are connected to the distribution channel.

5:39:31Robinhood 有 USDG，Stripe 有 OUSD，Coinbase 有 USDC，各處都是不同 silo。So, you know, like Robinhood has USDG, you have Stripe with OUSD, you know, there's other examples like Coinbase, USDC. So, yeah, you kind of have this all over the place, and so there will be silos of different stablecoins.

5:39:45USDC、USDT 仍主導，DeFi 裡 USDC 特別強；也有鏈的 silo，例如 Robinhood Chain 圍繞 USDG。USDC and USDT are obviously the dominant ones. USDC in particular in DeFi is quite dominant. But there's sort of this—there's the silos of where the different chains are. Perfect example, like Robinhood, they have Robinhood Chain, and it's completely anchored around USDG, but it does need to interface, as people who come from, say, like the Coinbase world, they're holding USDC on Coinbase.

5:40:09Robinhood 使用者持 USDG，Coinbase 世界的人持 USDC，彼此要付款，這些流都必須連起來；區塊鏈正是連接的軌道。People have USDG on Robinhood. These users will need to send payments to each other, and so this flow all needs to be connected. And the blockchain is precisely the rails that really connect this all together. Having a global market where everybody can get access to liquidity in a permissionless way is a huge unlock.

5:40:28全球 permissionless 流動性是巨大 unlock，會去碎片化全球市場，進而吸引更多 RWA 上鏈，代幣化股票等會跟著來。It de-fragments the global markets in general. And then what this will eventually lead to is more RWAs coming on-chain because of this hyper-connected capital and massive liquidity sink that is the blockchain and stablecoins. It's going to draw in all these, like, you know, tokenized equities, these types of things.

5:40:48這通常跟在鏈上信貸利率下降有關；近期鏈上利率略升，但通常仍有多餘流動性要找出口，Sky/MakerDAO 長期一直找信貸機會，利率可能比 TradFi 便宜。These follow, basically, as the credit rates drop on-chain, and rates on-chain have gone up a little bit recently. But overall, there's usually an excess of liquidity that needs to be deployed, and this is the state that Sky/MakerDAO has been in for a while now, where we are always looking for credit opportunities, which translates to cheaper rates than maybe what people can get in TradFi.

5:41:11國庫與風險管理

5:41:11好，注意時間，也快速談國庫與風險管理：你們部署在 TradFi、DeFi、RWA 幾乎所有地方，怎麼說服機構把你們當部署基礎設施？Perfect. Okay, be mindful of the time, but let's briefly also touch on treasury and risk management, because you guys deploy across basically everything: TradFi, DeFi, RWAs. Basically everything: TradFi, DeFi, RWAs. How do you convince institutions to treat you as an infra for their deployment?

5:41:28我談 Spark Savings 和 sUSDS。Spark Savings 是 sUSDS 的薄包裝，把 Sky Savings Rate 散到生態。Yeah, so I'll talk about Spark Savings and sUSDS. So Spark Savings is kind of a, is like a thin wrapper on top of sUSDS. So it basically spreads the Sky Savings Rate out into the ecosystem. Yeah, so for this product, we find there is a much, much stronger fit with sort of crypto natives and also users who need to be liquid with USDC, USDT.

5:41:52這產品跟 crypto 原生、以及需要 USDC/USDT 流動性的機構 fit 更強；例如基金要在 USDT 上拿到好執行，或負債是 USDC/USDT，持有流動性很重要。There's many reasons that, you know, institutions may want this. You know, if you're a fund and you need to get good execution through USDT because it's highly liquid. This is why you would, like, hold in sort of this kind of product. Also, if you, you know, have, like, maybe your own liabilities in USDC, USDT, being liquid with these assets is incredibly important.

5:42:16Sky Savings Rate 現在約 3.8%，接近 SOFR。我不會說這是無風險，國債才是無風險利率，這裡有額外風險，換來的是流動性輪廓，Sky 存款超過 100 億還在成長。So now, like, the Sky Savings Rate right now is 3.8%. It's about SOFR. There is, and I would not say this is a risk-free product, like Treasury bills are the risk-free rate. So there is definitely additional risk, and so what they get for this is the liquidity profile, and this is extremely valuable.

5:42:33對 TradFi 本身 fit 沒那麼強，銀行體系有貨幣基金，拿 SOFR 收益不難。This is why Sky has over 10 billion in deposits and still growing, because this is a strong use case. Now for TradFi, this is interesting. So breaking out into TradFi, I don't think is the strong product-market fit because there's money market funds in the banking system.

5:42:50新的是機構真的上鏈用穩定幣時，貨幣基金反而比鏈上 SOFR 產品更不流動。It's not hard to get access to SOFR-yield products. What is novel is more when they come on-chain, when institutions start using stablecoins in a real way, money market funds suddenly become less liquid than the on-chain SOFR-yield product.

5:43:05仍有智慧合約風險，我不會否認，但我們紀錄穩健。USDS 資產負債表主要在穩定幣與藍籌超額抵押借貸，設計成盡可能安全，提供高流動性的 SOFR 收益。And even still, like, yes, there is smart contract risk and stuff, I would never say otherwise. But we have a very solid track record. The USDS balance sheet is just primarily in, like, stablecoins and very blue-chip crypto overcollateralized lending, so we designed this to be as safe as possible, sort of able to deliver this highly liquid SOFR yield.

5:43:27兩年後誰贏流動性

5:43:27TradFi 機構開始在資產負債表上持更多穩定幣時，這會是重要入口，但我們還在很早期，明年 GENIUS 生效會改變很多，我覺得那邊產品很強。And I think this is a very compelling product as, like, even institutions in TradFi, as they start holding more stablecoins on their balance sheet, this is going to be really the inroad. But we're at the very early stages of this. I think this is about to change quite a bit in the next year, like with GENIUS coming into effect at the beginning of next year.

5:43:48好，快速結束問題：兩年後穩定幣戰爭贏家長怎樣？Spark 在堆疊哪一層？兩年……我沒法給精確時間表，也許兩、三、四年。So yeah, I think it's a very strong product there. Okay, let's go just quickly to the closing question. So, two years from now, how the winning stablecoin wars looks like? Where Spark sits in the stack? Two years. Two years from now. Okay. I can't give you the timelines exactly, but yeah. Yeah, I think maybe two, maybe three, maybe four.

5:44:09但我們會成長一個數量級。現在流通穩定幣約 3,000 億，2030 年有人估 3 兆，我同意；穩定幣解鎖 24/7 資本市場、跨境支付，減少銀行摩擦與費用，product-market fit 很強。But, like, I think we're going to, like, 10x in size. There is 300 billion or so stablecoins in circulation right now. There are estimates of about 3 trillion by 2030. I concur with these estimates, and based on the conversations that we're having with institutions, stablecoins just unlock so many benefits, like 24/7 access to capital markets, cross-border payments, removing a lot of the frictions and the fees that exist in the banking system.

5:44:39過去一年偏熊市，穩定幣卻持平；下一波採用起來，我預期會大幅成長。Like, they have a strong product-market fit. So this growth, we've been in a bear market for the past year, and stablecoins have just been flat. So once we get the next leg of adoption really ramping up, I expect a huge amount of growth.

5:44:54Spark 要在哪？我們想成為進 DeFi 的入口：大家先用穩定幣，下一步想賺收益，Spark 要做可靠、可做國庫管理的收益核心。And where does Spark sit in this? Yeah, we want to be the entry point into DeFi. Stablecoins, when people first use this, okay, this is great, but what is the next step? They want to start earning yield on these stablecoins, and we want Spark to be positioned as the key reliable yield that people can use for treasury management.

5:45:14好，我同意你的估計。就到這裡，謝謝 Sam。謝謝。Perfect, thanks. I sign up with your estimate. Okay, that was all. Thank you. Thank you, Sam. Great. Thank you.