Nara：跨境匯款卡幾天，空檔誰出錢？
Payment volume as a yield source
- Jakob Kronbichler Nara 共同創辦人暨執行長
影片
影片與逐字稿來源：Stablecoin Summit 直播
從 4:59:34 開始播放
場次摘要
Nara 共同創辦人 Jakob Kronbichler 說，穩定幣可即時轉移，但法幣收付仍依賴較慢的銀行流程。跨境付款因此可能出現一至五天的資金空檔，需要有人先墊款。Nara 希望把這種短期支付融資做成美元收益來源；他認為，期限比多年期私募信貸短，較適合需要頻繁贖回的鏈上資金。這是公司的產品構想與風險判斷，不代表收益已獲保證。
值得記下的 5 件事
- DeFi 收益主要依賴加密交易槓桿，市場冷卻時收益也會下降。
- 多年期私募信貸與 GPU 融資不易變現，代幣化無法消除底層期限。
- 穩定幣快速轉帳與銀行慢速結算之間的缺口，需要有人提供短期資金。
- Nara 用隔離的 SPV、受控銀行帳戶與錢包，把融資連結到預期流入的付款。
- 付款融資底層期限約一至五天，比多年期貸款更容易配合快速贖回；仍有借款與結算風險。
逐字稿
開場
歡迎 Nara 的 Jakob Kronbichler，主題是當支付量成為收益來源。歡迎 Jakob。非常感謝。大家午安，新加坡午安。我是 Jakob，Nara 共同創辦人兼執行長。今天談我們對數位時代信貸應該長什麼樣子的看法。I would like to welcome Jakob Kronbichler from Nara, and the subject is when payment volume is the yield source. So welcome, Jakob. Thank you very much. Good afternoon, everyone. Good afternoon, Singapore. My name is Jakob, and I'm the co-founder and CEO of Nara. And today I'm going to talk a little bit about our vision on how credit for the digital era should look like.
快速看現況：DeFi 有一個問題，大多數收益相對低，低於 5%。原因主要是依賴加密交易槓桿，因此也非常依賴市場。So quickly, you know, currently in DeFi. We have, you know, one problem, which is most of the yield is relatively low, below 5%. And the reason is it's mainly dependent on leverage for crypto trading, and as a result, it's also very, very dependent on the market.
市場慢，收益就降；市場好，收益就升。RWA 本來被視為大解方，但現實是大多數 RWA 不太適合 DeFi。So if the market is slow, yield goes down. If the market is good, yield goes up. Now, obviously, RWAs are meant to be the big solution to this, but unfortunately, the reality is that most RWAs are not really suited for DeFi.
原因很簡單：多數 RWA 流動性很差，對吧？收益與實際存續期往往呈反向關係。容易上鏈的流動資產，像貨幣市場基金、短期國債，收益通常較低。And what is the reason for that? The reason is simple. Most RWAs are just very illiquid, right? There's an inverse relationship between the yield and the actual duration. So we see here, obviously, the liquid ones, the easy ones to bring on-chain, money market funds, T-bills, those usually have lower yield.
RWA 流動性與期限錯配
若沿風險曲線往上，看資產支持放貸、GPU 融資或一般私人信貸基金，存續期通常很長，因此很難有次級市場，脫鉤時也很難交易。If we go, you know, up the risk curve and we look at asset-backed lending, nowadays very popular GPU financing or, you know, regular private credit funds, those assets are usually quite long in duration, and as a result, it's very difficult for those assets to have secondary markets. It's very difficult for anyone to, you know, trade these assets if there is like a depeg.
當然有解法，例如 liquid sleeve，把部分底層放在貨幣市場等流動收益資產，或找 backstop 流動性提供者，但都不理想，最後會稀釋收益，規模也受 sleeve 或提供者限制。There are solutions in place, right? We talk about liquid sleeves, so you keep part of the underlying in a liquid yield-bearing asset like a money market, or you find backstop liquidity providers, but nothing is very ideal because at the end of the day, you know, it dilutes the yield, and it's only as large as that liquidity sleeve or liquidity providers you have.
在壓力時期常導致期限錯配，無法做大家今天談的 RWA looping。我們的做法是走向真正的加密原生 RWA，也就是支付，專注提供流動性，讓跨境支付能即時結算。And in times of distress, very often it's going to lead to a duration mismatch. You can't do what everyone is talking about today, which is RWA looping. Now, our approach to this is that, you know, we go and we go to the real crypto-native RWA, which are payments, and we mainly focus on providing liquidity to make cross-border payments settle instantly.
支付是加密原生 RWA
為什麼支付是加密原生 RWA？因為在穩定幣出現前，支付融資作為收益來源其實不存在，它來自加密世界。它即時結算，因此速度快、存續期短。支付，尤其跨境支付，可能是最好的 product-market fit。And why are payments the crypto-native RWAs? Because, you know, payment financing as a yield source didn't really exist before we had stablecoins. So it's really something that comes from the crypto world. It settles instantly, and therefore there is the speed and short duration. Obviously, payments, probably the best product-market fit, especially cross-border payments.
目前支付公司多半用預先資金帳戶解決，大量資金被鎖住。穩定幣已成可行替代，但個人與企業仍要收發法幣，這反而造成新的流動性瓶頸：法幣與穩定幣互換仍依賴慢的銀行軌道，仍有結算空窗需要融資。You know, currently the way that payment companies are solving it is with pre-funding accounts. A lot of money is locked. Stablecoins have emerged as a valid alternative. However, you know, people and companies still need to send and receive fiat currency, and that has actually caused a new liquidity bottleneck, which is whenever you move from fiat into stables and
我們稱為 payment financing 或 settlement financing，這是我公司的焦點。我們是 backed by 短期支付融資的收益型美元；快速概述典型跨境支付融資流程。the other way around, you're still relying on slow banking rails, and you still have a settlement gap, and that settlement gap needs to be financed. And this is what we call payment financing or settlement financing. And this is what my company is focusing on. Now, we are a yield-bearing dollar backed by short-term payment financing, and maybe I quickly give an overview of a typical cross-border payment financing flow.
跨境支付融資流程
第一，匯款人發起轉帳到銀行帳戶，同時觸發穩定幣轉給收款方，再 off-ramp 支付；之後銀行端資金要結算、要 on-ramp 回來。對使用者交易是即時的，但整段流程常要一到五天，需要有人墊這段流動性。So, you know, number one, the sender initiates a transaction to a bank account, immediately triggers a stablecoin transfer to the recipient account, where it's off-ramped and paid out, and then the money needs to settle in the bank account, needs to be on-ramped back, and this whole flow, the transaction is immediate, but this whole flow typically takes anywhere from one to five days, and there basically needs to be a company that steps in and finances this flow, and this.
若一年重複多次，這會是很有吸引力的收益來源。payment/settlement financing 有多種應用，凡是有銀行結算延遲的地方都適用，跨境支付是最大場景。It's basically a very attractive yield source if you do it multiple times over the course of a year. Basically, this payment financing or settlement financing has multiple applications. Basically everywhere where you have a delayed bank settlement lag, cross-border payments are the largest application.
也有 on/off-ramp、外匯結算、卡片清算（一到三天），以及為 RWA 提供流動性，在 off-ramp 完成前墊資。But you also have on- and off-ramps. You have FX settlements. You have financing the card flows, card settlements, which take one to three days, and also providing liquidity for those RWAs, where you can come in and provide the liquidity for however long it takes for the money to be off-ramped.
為什麼 PayFi 是理想的 DeFi 資產？第一，若結構得當，底層相對安全。我們談的是資金周轉，不是替公司償付能力背書，而是 bridging 結算空窗，對 incoming wire 放信貸，或已有預先資金交易。And the asset to be delivered. Now, why is PayFi an ideal DeFi asset? First of all, the underlying is, if structured well, pretty safe. We're talking about, you know, funding. We're not talking about funding solvency, but we're talking about bridging settlement gaps, because here you are extending credit on an incoming wire transfer, or you are already having a pre-funded transaction.
PayFi 為何適合 DeFi
第二，你不是在承保公司資產負債表，而是在承保一筆交易，且有多種方式擔保。我們通常用 segregated SPV，以 incoming payment flows 擔保，並控制銀行帳戶與穩定幣錢包。第三是透明度。One second. The second thing is: you're actually not really underwriting the company's balance sheet, but you're underwriting a transaction, and you have a lot of ways to secure these transactions. So typically here we create segregated SPVs that are secured by the underlying incoming payment flows with controlled bank accounts and stablecoin wallets. And the third one is when it comes to transparency.
若投資私人信貸基金，NAV 常每月更新，還再延遲一個月；你看到 NAV 時，真實狀況往往已不同。這裡交易週期極短、不斷 recycle，又有穩定幣元素，目前可每週更新 NAV，未來可能到每日。While, you know, if you invest in a private credit fund, you usually have an NAV update every month. It's usually also delayed by another month. So by the time you're getting the NAV update, the real situation is already quite different. Here, we have this very short-term element of recycling these transactions. We have a stablecoin element, so we're actually able to produce an updated NAV currently every week, but in the future as short as potentially every day.
但最重要的是：RWA 的流動性不會超過底層。你可以把典型私人信貸基金代幣化，它們放多年期公司貸款。Now, the most important thing, however, is that an RWA is only as liquid as its underlying. So you can go ahead, you can tokenize the typical private credit funds that give out multiple years of loans to companies.
但若很多人同時要退出，就會期限錯配；許多大型私人信貸基金因此 gated redemption，即使是應收帳款融資，底層也常是數月，最短如 payday loan 也可能到 30 天。But, you know, as it happens, if a lot of people want to get out, you're going to have a duration mismatch. And as a result, you know, a lot of those large private credit funds currently have gated redemptions, even for something like receivable financing, invoice financing, typically the underlying is still multiple months, or the shortest one is maybe like payday loans, still up to 30 days.
短天期與即時贖回
因此這類機會常要設六個月到一年 lockup。payment financing 則短至一天、最長約五天，因此可以 backed by 真實支付流，又能快速贖回、避免期限錯配。And as a result, you need to structure these opportunities in a way to have, you know, at least six-month, one-year lockups. When it comes to payment financing, we're talking about as short as one day to a maximum of five days, and as a result, you're able to create a yield product that is backed by real-world payment flows, companies interacting with each other, but at the same time, you can facilitate quick redemptions without any duration mismatch.
某種程度上我們結合兩邊優點：流動性 profile 接近加密原生資產，我認為不如 Aave 流動，但可比 Ethena 或 Maple，同時收益 profile 像 real-world 應收融資，且與加密市場無關。So, you know, in a way here, we're really combining the best of both worlds. You know, we are looking at the liquidity profile of a more crypto-native asset. I think not as liquid as Aave, but it can be compared to something like an Ethena or a Maple, but however with the yield profile of a, you know, real-
總結：為 DeFi 做信貸，不要只是把既有東西搬上鏈，而要打造能在鏈上運作的結構。與其長天期公司貸款，我們看 self-liquidating 的短期支付流。world receivable financing product that is independent of the crypto market. So, you know, to conclude once again, when we are creating credit for DeFi, you know, it's important to not just take what is out there and put it on-chain, but you want to actually create something that can operate on-chain. So instead of having, you know, long-dated corporate loans, we're looking here at self-liquidating short-term payment flows.
結語：支付融資解鎖鏈上信貸
我們也提供即時贖回；即使 primary redemption，在 liquidity sleeve 之後也可在七天內完成。定價上有頻繁、鏈上可驗證的 NAV；更重要的是，因為底層流動性夠，這些資產能在 DeFi 裡像加密原生資產一樣使用。We also offer instant redemptions, but, you know, even primary redemptions, like even the redemptions after the liquidity sleeve can be facilitated within seven days. When it comes to pricing, we have frequent on-chain verifiable NAV, and obviously, most important here, you know, we can create DeFi use cases for these assets because we have the underlying.
可加槓桿，也可整合進 neobank 或中心化交易所的 earn 產品，讓使用者像進出 stablecoin 一樣進出。總結：目前 DeFi 收益仍高度依賴槓桿。liquidity, and these assets can really be used just like a crypto-native asset within DeFi. You can apply leverage, and you can also integrate them in some of those neobanks and centralized exchanges' earn products, where people can come in and out of these products just like with a stablecoin or a crypto-native asset. So, to conclude, as mentioned, currently most of the DeFi yield is dependent on leverage.
許多 RWA 可能還不太 DeFi compatible，但我們相信支付與 payment financing 是解鎖鏈上 private credit 潛力的關鍵。非常感謝。A lot of the RWAs currently maybe are not really DeFi compatible, but we believe that payments and payment financing is really the big opportunity to finally unlock the big potential of private credit on-chain. Thank you very much.
