MiniPay：2,000 萬人用了，為何換現金還難？

2:50:28開場

2:50:28大家午安，希望吃過午餐，準備好談 stablecoin 生態如何達到 2 億以上使用者。今天有幾位 panelist：Celo stablecoin 負責人 Markus，以及 MiniPay 合作負責人 Murray。Good afternoon, everyone. Hopefully everyone has had some lunch and is ready for this exciting conversation about how we're going to get to 200-plus million users within the stablecoin ecosystem. Today with me, I have some very exciting panelists. We have Markus, head of stablecoins at Celo, and Murray, head of partnerships at MiniPay.

2:50:52談 stablecoin 很少有人比 Celo 更熟。Celo 標榜每週超過 600 萬使用者、stablecoin 交易量超過 650 億美元；MiniPay 在 70 國超過 2000 萬使用者，app 內有 50 多個 mini app。Markus，Celo 的大願景是什麼？現在最讓你興奮的在建什麼？No one knows more about stablecoins, or not many people know more about stablecoins, than Celo. They are boasting over 6 million weekly users and have done more than $65 billion in stablecoin volume. And MiniPay has over 20 million users across 70 countries and more than 50 mini apps within the application. Markus, I want to ask you, what is the grand vision of Celo, and what's something that you're most excited about that's being built right now?

2:51:32當然。非常感謝，也很高興來新加坡這週。Celo 從第一天起願景就是 payments chain、stablecoin 鏈。Absolutely. Thank you so much, and thanks so much for being here. Very exciting week here in Singapore. So on Celo, we've had that vision to be the payments chain, number one, to be the chain for stablecoins from day one.

2:51:47八年前起步時，鏈上貨幣沒那麼多，過去幾年多半只有美元 stablecoin，現在變了。Celo 上已有 33 種 stablecoin、涵蓋 20 多種貨幣。Like when we started eight years ago, there haven't been, like, so many currencies around. In the past years, it was actually mostly dollar stablecoins, but that has changed now. On Celo, we now have 33 different stablecoins live across more than 20 currencies.

2:52:06例如 USDT 在 Celo 每週活躍使用者超過 600 萬，使 Celo 成 Tether 使用量最高的鏈。看 stablecoin 交易，過去五天 Celo 上超過 500 萬筆，排第一。We see, for example, for USDT, more than 6 million weekly active users, which makes Celo the most used chain for Tether. When you look at stablecoin transactions, in the last five days, we've seen more than five million stablecoin transactions on Celo, which puts it at first place.

2:52:29第二可能是 Polygon，約 400 萬筆。數字顯示 stablecoin 很活躍。我現在專注把更多貨幣帶上 Celo，因為我們相信 stablecoin 在 remittance、支付，以及 on-chain FX 等機構場景的力量。I think second then is, with four million stablecoin transactions, Polygon. So you can see from these numbers that there's a lot going on in stablecoins. And I'm currently focused on bringing in and bringing on more currencies to Celo because we deeply believe, A, in the power of stablecoins when it comes to payments, for remittances, but also for larger institutional use cases like on-chain FX.

2:52:58鏈上外匯所需基礎

2:52:58on-chain FX 需要最佳基礎設施、鏈上快速結算、能用 stablecoin 付 gas，也需要 x402 payments 等基礎設施，Celo 上已 live。And for on-chain FX, you need, like, best infrastructure, fast settlement on a chain, the ability to pay for gas fees in stablecoins, but also infrastructure like, for example, x402 payments, which is also live on Celo.

2:53:14Murray，談談 MiniPay？大願景是什麼？現在最興奮的在建什麼？好。先退一步，MiniPay 由 Opera 打造，30 年 tech 公司，懂 browser、懂 distribution，也知道拉新多難。Murray, could you tell us about MiniPay? What is the grand vision, and what's something that you're really excited about that's being built right now? Yes. I think just to take a step back, MiniPay, we were built by Opera, a 30-year-old tech company that's been building browsers, understands distribution, and understands how difficult it is actually to acquire users for

2:53:40我們建在 Celo 上，abstraction 與熟悉、舒適的 UX 是核心。我們盡量 abstract 雜訊：seed phrase、錢包地址、網路鏈。a new product, a new app. We built on the Celo chain, MiniPay that is, and abstraction and a clean, familiar, comfortable UX and user experience for our users has been absolutely core. We've abstracted as much of the noise as we can, from seed phrases to wallet addresses to network chains.

2:54:00使用者多半是 Web2 而非 Web3，沒聽過 crypto，不知道 stablecoin 是什麼。我們只提供環境，讓使用者想的是電話號碼與美元。We try and remove any of that noise from our users. Our users are predominantly Web2, not Web3 users, have never heard of crypto, don't know what a stablecoin is. All we're trying to do is provide an environment, a place, a wallet for our users to think about a phone number and a dollar.

2:54:20我們謙虛地說這點算成功。幸運有 Opera distribution，先在 browser 內嵌 MiniPay，現也有 standalone，做出熟悉、乾淨體驗。我興奮的是什麼？And I think that's where we humbly say we've succeeded. We've been fortunate to have the distribution that's provided by Opera. We started with an embedded version of MiniPay within the browsers themselves. We now have a standalone version, and we've produced this very familiar, clean experience for our users. What am I excited about?

2:54:40我認為關鍵在支付。使用者不再把錢包當 stablecoin 錢包，而是當 money。未來希望他們不再談 stablecoin，錢包就是花錢的地方。卡片让我很興奮。I think it comes down to payments. I think it's going to come down to how our users stop seeing the wallet as a stablecoin wallet and simply as money. In the years to come, we would hope they would stop talking about stablecoins and just see the wallet of choice as a place where they spend money. Cards, very exciting for me.

2:55:04這提供目前很好用的 off-ramp。我們與全球 mobile money、電信 on/off-ramp 整合，Mercado Pago、Pix、M-Pesa 等，例如從美國直接匯到當地 mobile money，付電費、話費，或在街邊 merchant 付款。I think that provides a fantastic off-ramp at the moment, really easy, comfortable. We have a number of different integrations with mobile money, telcos, through ramps around the world, Mercado Pago, Pix, M-Pesa, allowing users, for example, to either send from the U.S. directly into somebody's mobile money wallet locally, so to be able to pay for someone's electricity, their airtime, or alternatively pay at a merchant at a street level.

2:55:34MiniPay 的願景

2:55:34這才是 real-world、日常、高度 engaged 的 utility，MiniPay 現在很有趣。補充：這種高頻日常活動創造 sticky 使用者，每天用 stablecoin、每天用 MiniPay。I think that's really that true real-world, day-to-day, highly engaged utility is where I think MiniPay is very interesting at the moment. And maybe to add to that, I think this is interesting, exactly what you mentioned, like this highly engaged day-to-day activity, because this creates sticky users that use stablecoins, that use MiniPay every day.

2:56:00他們不太 care crypto 冬夏或 Bitcoin 漲跌，每天用於支付、remittance、朋友轉帳、跨境、儲蓄。They don't really care if it's like crypto winter or crypto summer or if Bitcoin is going up or down. They use it every day because they use it for payments, for remittances, for sending their friends money, for sending money cross-border, for saving.

2:56:16這些 use case 有時在 pure speculation 之外，當然部分使用者也把它當進 Web3 其他資產的入口。All of these use cases that are maybe a bit outside in some cases, at least, of, like, the pure speculation. Of course, some of them, some of the users are also using it for, like, a way into other assets in Web3.

2:56:30但這些 use case 讓他們每週、每天都要回來，我認為這與 Opera、MiniPay 的 distribution 差異很大。But these use cases are actually use cases that they need to come back to every week or every day, which I think makes a big difference here in this, like, great distribution that we have with Opera and with MiniPay.

2:56:46你提到的關鍵是盡可能降低門檻，嵌入日常生活，幾乎取代既有金融 app。若可補充：我們不該教使用者怎麼用 crypto 才能用我們 app。I think the key point that you mentioned is making it as easy as possible for anybody to use and really embedding it into their daily lives. It becomes a replacement, almost, against their existing financial applications. Speaking of that—if I can add that, that's such a good point. We shouldn't be trying to teach users how to use crypto to use our apps.

2:57:09我們常失敗在展示新奇，而不是 fit 現有生活。談既有銀行或 FX，要到 2 億，對吧？I think where we fall short is trying to show them something exciting and new instead of exactly what you're saying, fitting into their current lifestyle. Yeah, and speaking of the existing, you know, financial applications, whether it's banks or FX, you know, to get to 200 million, right?

2:57:27這場 fireside 的目標。我們要不要與銀行或傳統金融合作，還是可以獨立達 2 億？可能看地區。世界很多地區其實沒有銀行。Because that's really the goal of this fireside chat that we're having. Do we need to be working with these banks or traditional financial products, or can we get to 200 million independently? It depends probably on where we are talking about. Like, in many regions of the world, people don't actually have any access to banks.

2:57:51日常支付與黏性

2:57:51這裡也許可用 stablecoin 取代很貴、不好用的 cross-border 舊基礎設施，輕易觸及 2 億人。但在已有良好金融體系的地區，也要與該體系合作。And here, maybe we can replace very expensive old infrastructure that didn't work cross-border with stablecoins and reach, like, easily 200 million people already. But of course, in other regions of the world where there is an existing, well-working financial system, here we also need to work together with this system.

2:58:16監管也在跟上，歐洲有 MiCA，美國有 GENIUS Act，都以相似方式監管 stablecoin，細節有些差異。新加坡 MAS 也推出 stablecoin 指引，說明好 stablecoin 該長怎樣，這讓我們能與機構合作。We've seen now regulation picking up, basically. There's MiCA in Europe, there's the GENIUS Act in the US. Both are regulating stablecoins in a relatively similar way, with a few differences. There's now guidance from MAS here in Singapore coming out on stablecoins, what a good stablecoin should look like, and this enables us then also to work together with institutions for this.

2:58:46好觀點：新興市場很多使用者沒用過銀行。若把銀行理解為受監管機構，我認為可以並行合作。Yeah, I think it's a good point that many users in emerging markets have never really used a bank. But if we assume by banks we mean regulated institutions, I think there's a place for us working alongside.

2:59:00我們已有 bridges。用 MiniPay 可用 M-Pesa 進出，可用 M-Pesa、Visa 消費，可用銀行轉帳進出。Alongside, we've already got those bridges. If you use MiniPay now, you can come in using M-Pesa, you can spend using M-Pesa, you can spend using Visa, you can come in using bank transfer, out using bank transfer.

2:59:14這些軌道附帶對銀行的信任與監管，並行合作可能比教育機構或改變其態度更好。I think those rails are—there's a trust that's attached to banks, regulation that's... It's also important, and I think working alongside them may be rather better than trying to educate these institutions or change or turn their noses.

2:59:30我們幾次提到 remittance 或 cross-border。MiniPay 數百萬使用者今天 dominant use case 是什麼？未來五年呢？We've mentioned remittance or cross-border a couple of times here. You know, with the millions of users that are using MiniPay now, what is the dominant use case today, and where do you see the dominant use cases being in the next five years?

2:59:49cross-border 是關鍵。我們談 hold、save、send、spend，像 ultra-neobank。cross-border 用電話號碼即時送美元，是強 use case，已經發生。Yeah, cross-border is key to that. I think we speak about hold, save, send, spend, and those are your key use cases. Ultra-neobank-ish. Cross-border, to be able to send instantly a dollar using a phone number, I think is a strong use case, and it's come to bear.

3:00:09能否不靠銀行達兩億

3:00:09我們接近 5.8 億筆交易，約 2000 萬 phone-verified 錢包。hold 一美元並能即時、便宜送出 ultra important。五年後？We're just under 580 million transactions, as you mentioned, 20 million-odd phone-verified wallets. I think that's that: hold a dollar and be able... to send it instantly and very cheaply is ultra important. Where will it be in five years?

3:00:26回到我說的：該看現在人們用 money 做什麼、需要什麼，使用者就該用 stablecoin 做這些。Again, coming back to what I said, I think we should be looking at: what do we do with money now? What do we need to do with money now? That's what users should be doing with stablecoins.

3:00:38五年後 abstraction 會更強，不會再問「該教大家 stablecoin 做什麼」，它會自然發生。五年前把 USDC 換 USDT 再換回相對複雜，I think the abstraction will be even stronger in five years' time. I don't think we'll be saying, "What should we now teach people to use stablecoins for?" I think it'll just happen. Like a complicated transaction, for example, when you want to swap a USDC into USDT and then swap to USDT, for example, like five years ago, that—

3:01:00要 approve 多筆交易、分享特定 key 等。現在 MiniPay 只要把某 pocket 拖到另一個就 swap 不同 stablecoin。was relatively complicated. You had to, like, approve different transactions. Yeah, you had to share specific keys and so on. Now, in MiniPay, it's just by dragging and dropping a certain pocket on top of the other, and then it's swapping from these different stablecoins.

3:01:20如 Murray 開頭說，區塊鏈複雜度都被 abstract 掉，使用者最後只做習慣的事：付、swap、send、receive。As Murray said in the beginning, all the, like, complications of blockchain are abstracted away, so that the user in the end just needs to do what they're used to, basically either pay or swap or send or receive.

3:01:35我們看到的不只在 app 內，還有實體卡，讓 merchant 購物成為替代。UX 已進步很多，還有哪些摩擦阻止我們從全球 5000 萬 stablecoin 使用者到 2 億？And I see what we're seeing more is not just in the app, but actually physical cards, making it a replacement in terms of shopping at merchants, etc. You know, there's been a lot of progress in terms of the user experience. Are there any kind of final friction points that are stopping us from getting to that next step and being able to go from 50 million global stablecoin users to 200?

3:02:00我認為 ramps 仍是 final frontier。法幣進 stablecoin、stablecoin 回法幣，有 KYC、成本、spread、各市場 ramp 流動性等挑戰，但已有很多進展。I think ramps are still the final frontier. I think moving from fiat into stablecoins and out back into fiat, I think there are a number of challenges, anywhere from KYC to cost, spreads, to the actual ramp liquidity, for example, in different markets. I think there's a lot being done.

3:02:26近五億八千萬筆交易

3:02:26比過去好太多、更快更便宜，但 friction 仍在改善。MiniPay 只談電話號碼與美元，不談錢包地址。It's much, much better, much faster, much cheaper than it was. But I think we are moving to a better place in terms of that sort of friction. Again, I speak of the abstraction, the noise. In MiniPay, we speak of a phone number and a dollar, and that's all we speak about. We really try to—we don't talk about wallet addresses.

3:02:46使用者甚至可能不知道那是 stablecoin，我們希望如此，重點是互送 money，不是 seed phrase、地址、哪條 network。用 MiniPay 就是在驅動 commerce、交易、金融。They may not even know it's a stablecoin. We hope they don't, and we don't want them to. It's not the point. You know, we want to send each other money. We don't want to talk about seed phrases and wallet addresses and which network. We don't understand it, do we, if we've decided to use MiniPay. You're powering commerce, you're powering transactions, you're powering finance.

3:03:06過去幾月、幾年也出現更多 fully regulated、fiat-backed、非美元 stablecoin 上鏈，像本地貨幣。Celo 過去幾月與 Ripio 上線六種拉美貨幣，Ripio 原是 pure ramp 生意，現在也發 stablecoin，讓使用者取得更便宜。And something that also changed in the past, like, months or years is now we're finally seeing also more fully regulated, fiat-backed, non-dollar stablecoins coming on-chain, like local currencies. On Celo, in the past few months, we've launched six different Latin American currencies with Ripio, and Ripio formerly was a pure ramp business, and now they also offer stablecoins and actually therefore can make it very cheap to make these stablecoins available to their users.

3:03:40我們也與 IDRX 上線印尼盾 CNGN、奈及利亞 naira，並考慮澳幣、瑞郎等，讓鏈上使用者有完整貨幣範圍。We also launched an Indonesian rupiah with IDRX. We launched CNGN, a Nigerian naira. We're looking to launch Australian dollars and Swiss francs and, like, all the currencies out there, so that basically users now on-chain have, like, the full range of currencies.

3:04:00使用者有做想做的事所需的工具，這也改變鏈上互動方式。談這些 long-tail stablecoin 貨幣，如何最好拉需求？All the tools they need to do what they want to do. And therefore, I think this also changes how people can now interact on-chain. And speaking of that, these long-tail stablecoin currencies, how are you seeing the best way to drive demand for them?

3:04:20我多年在 Stablecoin Summit 談的例子：在高通膨、本幣貶值市場，便宜取得美元是 amazing use case，但使用者不只儲蓄，也可能借款。So something I've always been excited about, and I've been talking here at Stablecoin Summit, for example, for years now, is, for example, giving users easy and cheap access to U.S. dollar is an amazing use case in markets where there's high inflation, where the local currencies are devaluing, but users also not only want to save, maybe they want to borrow and they want to get a loan.

3:04:45法幣管道與長尾穩定幣

3:04:45借款時偏好本幣，還款就不必承擔 FX 風險，不像只借美元。支付方面，許多國家只能本幣支付，因此 local currency stablecoin 也合理。And when they get a loan, they prefer local currency because then if they have to pay back the loan, they don't bear the FX risk, in contrast to just borrowing in dollars. For payments, of course, in many countries you only can pay with local currency. There it also makes sense.

3:05:01許多 use case 正在浮現，推動 long-tail 貨幣需求。談這些機會，要收尾了：要想到不止 2 億，而是 10 億以上 stablecoin 使用者，創業者該建什麼？So there's a lot of use cases that are now emerging that drive also these long-tail currency use. And speaking of these use cases, you know, to wrap up here, I think we need to be thinking about what are the biggest opportunities moving forward to get us to not even 200 million, but one billion and more stablecoin users.

3:05:20你們看到哪些尚未 fully developed 的機會？對我來說 key 是 distribution，這也是這次 partnership 很棒的原因，這裡有很好的 distribution。Where should entrepreneurs be focused on building? What are the most exciting opportunities that you guys are seeing that maybe aren't really fully developed yet today? So for me, key is distribution, and this is why this partnership is so amazing, because there is great distribution here.

3:05:35做 stablecoin 產品要 good distribution、為使用者而建，我認為這是 key factor。抱歉，不容易，distribution 很貴，創業者 distribution 很 challenging。If you're building for stablecoins, you want good distribution. You want to build for users, and there... I think this is, for me, like, a key factor. Sorry. No, it's really difficult. It's not easy to get distribution, as you know. It's really expensive. For an entrepreneur, to distribute can be challenging.

3:05:54但可以借：MiniPay 2000 萬 non-custodial 錢包、75 個 mini app。vertical 上我仍 love cross-border，平均 remittance 成本仍 6%，太離譜。freelancer、spend use case 等。But you can borrow it. MiniPay: 20 million non-custodial wallets. We've got 75 mini apps. Now, key verticals, if you like: I still love cross-border. Six percent average remittance costs now. It's still exorbitant. Freelancer use cases, the spend use cases. I think there's the— Yeah, yeah, I could speak for hours about it, but once you've solved the distribution, to start looking for different opportunities, I think it's focused on real-world utility.

3:06:31distribution 解決後再找機會，我認為 focus 在 real-world utility。別忘了我們在創業不是 hobby，要找有人需要、可 monetize、能變強生意的事。我先停在這，再講會講幾小時。非常感謝，這場 fireside 很棒，期待 Celo 與 MiniPay 繼續朝 2 億與 beyond 前進。I think we mustn't forget that we're trying to actually start a business, not a hobby, and let's find something that someone needs, something you can monetize. Something that can create a strong business. Let me stop there. I'll go on for hours if you let me. Thank you very much. This has been a great fireside chat, and we're very excited to see what you guys continue to do at Celo and MiniPay to get to 200 million users and beyond.

3:06:58致謝

3:06:58Jad，謝謝。非常感謝。Jad, thank you. Thank you so much.