Zuba 共同創辦人 Josiah Senu：錢正在變成協定，不再是許可

0:00主持人開場與嘉賓介紹

0:00大家午安，感謝大家的參與。我是Anna，今天將擔任這場對談的主持人。我剛加入Zuba擔任幕僚長，但我的背景從J.P. Morgan和Bluepool Capital的機構金融，到創辦自己的公司以及與新創公司早期合作，所以我從不同角度見過支付和金融基礎設施。今天與我一起的是Josiah Senu，他是Zuba的共同創辦人兼執行長。Josiah曾是Teya的第12號員工，並協助公司成長至100億美元的估值。現在，他的使命是打造世界上最可靠的銀行，從新興市場的跨境支付開始。Good afternoon, everyone, and thank you for joining us. I'm Anna, and I will be moderating today's conversation. I just joined Zuba as Chief of Staff, but my background has taken me from institutional finance at J.P. Morgan and Bluepool Capital to building my own company and working with early stage startups, so I've seen payments and financial infrastructure from a couple of different angles. Joining me is Josiah Senu. He's the co-founder and CEO of Zuba. Josiah was previously employee number 12 at Teya and helped scale the company to $10 billion valuation. Today, he's on a mission to building the world's most reliable bank, starting with cross-border payments in emerging markets.

0:50非洲跨境支付的現況與痛點

0:50Josiah，你之前曾經說過傳統的通匯銀行（correspondent banking）管道已經失靈，但顯然現在有很多金融科技公司正在嘗試建立新的管道。那你為什麼還認為非洲的跨境支付依然是個問題？ Josiah：當你思考金錢如何在全球流動時，最根本的核心其實就是要確保資金能夠從世界的一個地方以當地貨幣，流動到另一個地方同樣以當地貨幣。而在這個過程中，你需要找到一條能夠以聰明且智慧的方式完成這件事的管道。今天，我們所使用的這條管道，其實是在1970年代建立的，這是一條最終應該被留在過去的管道。為什麼？因為它是在網路出現之前就被設計出來的。So, Josiah, you've previously claimed that traditional correspondent banking rails are broken, but obviously there's a lot of fintech firms trying to build new rails. What makes you believe that cross-border payments in Africa is still broken? Josiah: When you think about the way that money moves across the world, it's fundamentally, at its core, about trying to make sure that money moves from one part of the world in a local currency to another part of the world in local currency. And when it does so, you need to find a rail that does so in an intelligent and a smart way. Today, that rail has been built in the 1970s, a rail which ultimately belongs in the past. Why? Because it was made before the internet.

1:38而現在，金錢是在網路上流動的，而且流動的方式比過去更聰明、更智慧，至少在人們彼此互動的方式上是如此。所以，當你看看像非洲這樣的環境，行動支付非常普及，發展得非常迅速，這其實是對當地挑戰的一種回應。而現有的金流系統，並沒有以一種智慧的方式去適應這個新系統。因此，我認為，非洲大陸真正的機會在於，讓金錢以應有的方式流動。而這正是我們相信穩定幣原生支付軌道的原因。And today, money moves on the internet and moves in a way which is much more intelligent and smart, at least in the way that people interact with each other. So when you look at the environments, like in Africa, for example, where mobile money is much more prevalent and is moving quite strongly, it's a response to the local challenges. And really, the current system of moving money hasn't adapted to that new system in an intelligent way. So really, what the opportunity is, I think, in the African continent is to move to where, in the way that money should move. And that is where we believe on a stablecoin native rail.

2:21使用者需求與最貴的教訓

2:21你會怎麼說，從創立 Zuba 以來，你的論點改變最多的是哪個部分？還有，你到目前為止學到最昂貴的一課是什麼？ Josiah：我認為，我們學到的最大一課就是，最終人們其實並不那麼在意基礎設施。他們在意的是他們想要的結果，也就是說，我發現金錢其實是一種通往行動的途徑。我的能力從 A 點移動到 B 點，是為了做某件事情。所以，我們的標語是「讓金錢流動得像想法一樣快」。一個創業家想要打造某些東西。And what would you say, what aspect of your thesis has changed the most since founding Zuba? And I guess, what's the most expensive lesson you've learned so far? Josiah: I think, you know, the biggest lesson that we've learned is that ultimately people don't necessarily care about the infrastructure. What they care about is the outcome that they're looking for, i.e., I find that money is a path to an action, right? My ability to move from A to B is to do something. So, you know, our tagline is make money move as fast as ideas. So, you know, an entrepreneur wants to build something.

3:00他們想要做的，可能有個創業家想從中國或新加坡或其他地方購買商品，他們正在嘗試這麼做。而他們並不擔心，也不會去思考SWIFT付款是怎麼運作的，或者我要怎麼透過銀行來轉帳。他們只想把事情完成。我認為，最令人驚訝的就是，這才是真正最重要的事情，而我們作為一間企業，必須要做到的就是這一點。我認為你能犯下最昂貴的錯誤，就是沒有傾聽使用者的聲音。我們真的非常專注，也幾乎到了著迷的程度，就是這個想法。They want to, you know, maybe there's an entrepreneur wants to buy a good from China or Singapore or wherever, and they're trying to do that. And they're not worried. They're not trying to think about, you know, how does a SWIFT payment work or, you know, how do I use the banks to move that money? They just want to get it done. And I think it's ever more surprising at the fact that that's what matters the most, and what we have to deliver as a business is that. And I think the most expensive mistake that you can make, I think, is not listening to the customer. And I think we are really, really focused on being obsessed with that thought.

3:35穩定幣的機會與全球貿易

3:35你認為目前還沒有人解決的穩定幣採用最大機會是什麼？ Josiah：我認為最終來說，如果你看看現在國際貿易的運作方式，超過70%的國際貿易仍然以美元結算。這代表美元仍然是全球化企業營運帳戶的核心。因此，我認為未來的銀行、未來的企業、未來的基礎設施，會把使用者放在核心位置，並且思考當今貿易的運作方式，找到全球貿易的中心。舉例來說，如果你想到新加坡，新加坡本來就是一個港口，將人們聚集在一起進行貿易。And what do you think is the biggest opportunity for stablecoin adoption that no one has cracked yet? Josiah: I think ultimately, you know, if you look at the way that international trade works today, over 70% of international trade still clears in USD. And that means that it's still the heart of the operating account in the way in which a globally first business will have to think. And so I think the bank of the future, the business of the future, the infrastructure of the future puts the customer at the heart of that, and thinks through the way trade happens today, it finds the centers of global trade. I mean, if you think about Singapore, Singapore was a port, right, that brought people together for trade.

4:16最終，我認為我們作為一家企業的目標，就是要確保交易能夠變得更加容易、更加便利，具備速度、可及性與可用性。當這些條件實現時，你就會看到分布與成長。我們的工作，就是提升我們所參與經濟體的GDP，增加我們所服務商家的財富。這也是讓我對於建構這一切感到興奮的原因，並且我認為其中的祕訣，就是思考什麼才是全球首創、適用於世界上任何地方任何企業的營運帳戶。And ultimately, I think our objective as a business is to make sure that trade happens much, much more easier in a much more convenient manner, with speed, with access, with availability. And when those things happen, you get distribution and growth. Our job is to increase the GDP of the economies in which we contribute to increase the wealth of the merchants that we work for. And so that's what at least makes me excited to be building, and why I think that the secret sauce is thinking about what is the globally first operating account for any business anywhere in the world.

4:48合規策略與合作夥伴

4:48我們不一定能夠在每個司法管轄區都很快取得執照，因為那些流程需要時間，而且這些時間是有其必要性的。所以在這段期間，我們會選擇與我們認為在這些不同市場中最優秀的業者合作，並且最終與他們一同學習、一同成長。我們相信這不是零和遊戲。我們在建構產品時採取非常開放優先的態度。因此，如果有一家公司能以更好的方式、更便宜、更實惠、更可靠地服務某個通道，那我們為什麼不用他們的服務呢？那樣做才是合理的。我們的工作就是再次強調，為使用者提供最好的服務。所以，不論我們是否在那個特定司法管轄區取得執照，或是與當地的合作夥伴合作，我認為我們的故事始終都是要為使用者帶來價值。We can't necessarily have a license in every jurisdiction really quickly because those processes take time, and they take time for a necessary reason. So in the meantime, we work with what we believe to be the best in class in these different markets, and we ultimately learn with them. We grow with them. We believe that there is no zero-sum game. We have a very open-first approach to the way that we build. And so if there is a business that is doing a better, is serving a corridor in a better way, in a cheaper way, in a more affordable way, in a more reliable way, then why wouldn't we use that? That doesn't make sense. Our job is to provide, again, the best service to the customer. So whether or not we are licensed in that specific jurisdiction, or we work with partners in that jurisdiction, I think it will always be our story to deliver value to the customer.

5:29我們不一定能夠在每個司法管轄區都很快取得執照，因為那些流程需要時間，而且這些時間是有其必要性的。所以在這段期間，我們會與我們認為在這些不同市場中最優秀的合作夥伴合作，並且最終與他們一起學習、一起成長。我們相信這不是一場零和遊戲。我們在建構的方式上採取非常開放優先的態度。因此，如果有一家公司能以更好的方式、更便宜的方式、更實惠的方式、更可靠的方式來服務某個通道，那我們為什麼不用他們呢？這樣做才有道理。我們的工作就是再次強調，為使用者提供最好的服務。We can't necessarily have a license in every jurisdiction really quickly because those processes take time, and they take time for a necessary reason. So in the meantime, we work with what we believe to be the best in class in these different markets, and we ultimately learn with them. We grow with them. We believe that there is no zero-sum game. We have a very open-first approach to the way that we build. And so if there is a business that is doing a better, is serving a corridor in a better way, in a cheaper way, in a more affordable way, in a more reliable way, then why wouldn't we use that? That doesn't make sense. Our job is to provide, again, the best service to the customer.

6:17長期願景與全球南方

6:17但長期的雄心是什麼？你們在這個策略上是怎麼思考的？ Josiah：我認為我們的長期目標，最終是成為全球每一家企業和每一位消費者的財富與成長夥伴，並且採取全球優先的策略。我認為，目前在金融體系中受苦最深、尚未被整合進來的地區，就是新興市場，也就是現在所說的全球南方。你想想看，事實上，一級銀行最終已經撤離了這些市場，像是中亞某些地區、加勒比海、非洲等等。我們不只是提供一項推動世界前進的全新基礎技術。But what is the long-term ambition? Where are you thinking in terms of this strategy? Josiah: I think the long-term goal for us is to ultimately be a wealth and growth partner to every business and every consumer anywhere in the world with a globally first approach. I think that the parts of the world which suffer the most and are not integrated in the financial system is in the emerging markets, the global south today. I mean, if you think about, you know, the fact that tier one banks have ultimately left these markets, some parts of Central Asia, the Caribbean, Africa, etc., it's not just that we are, you know, providing a fundamental new technology which moves the world forward.

6:59其實，你們正在做的是一件更關鍵、更重要的事情，那就是你們正在填補這個真空。這才是更關鍵的，因為如果今天一個商家想要從中國購買商品，他們必須經過一系列的通匯銀行。如果他們想要在歐洲進行交易，也必須經過一系列的通匯銀行。但是這些分行正在關閉。你知道，七百年前的美第奇家族，如果他們現在在看這個世界，他們會發現這個世界已經非常不同了。因此，我們必須與時俱進。我再說一次，非常明確地說，我們的策略就是專注於使用者，並且在使用者所在的地方滿足他們的需求。Actually, what you're doing is something more critical and more important, which is that you're filling the vacuum. That is what's more critical, because if a merchant today, you know, wants to buy goods from China, they have to go through a set of correspondent banks. If they want to do it in Europe, they have to go through a set of correspondent banks. But the branches are closing. You know, the Medici's 700 years ago, you know, if they were looking on, you know, they would realize that the world is very different now. And as a result, we have to move with the times. And again, I'll say it crystal clear, our strategy is to obsess over the customer and meet the customer where they are.

7:38區塊鏈讓金錢變成協定

7:38你剛剛提到區塊鏈如何把金錢從「需要許可」轉變成「一種協議」。這在實際上是什麼意思？你認為隨著穩定幣越來越主流，這會帶來什麼改變？ Josiah：對，這其實很有趣。我想我會用一個比喻來回答這個問題。如果你回想一下，假設是在1950年代或1960年代，當時資訊是如何傳播給大眾的，通常都是透過核心的媒體管道，對吧？像是國營媒體、大型新聞公司，或者主要的報紙。基本上，這代表他們壟斷了資訊的取得權，也就是說，你獲得新聞的來源就是這些關鍵的資訊來源。然後到了2000年代、2010年代，社群媒體開始大量普及，對吧？And you've talked about how blockchain has changed money from permission to a protocol. What does that mean in practice? And how do you think it changes as stablecoins becomes more mainstream? Josiah: Yeah, it's fascinating, actually. I think I'll answer that question with an analogy. If you think back to, let's say, the 1950s or 1960s, in the way that information was distributed to people, it was often distributed through core media channels, right? So big state media or large news corporations or major newspapers, and fundamentally that meant they had a monopoly over access to information, right? Where you got your news was from these key information sources. And then what you had in the 2000s, 2010s was the proliferation of social media, right?

8:32你曾經有能力讓個人分享內容，像是 YouTube、Twitter（現在叫 X）這樣的平台，還有許多其他的平台。最終，這些平台讓資訊的取得和可用性變得民主化，創造了資訊的廣泛傳播。而現在，金錢也正在發生同樣的事情。金錢正在發生的變化是，我不再需要銀行作為我和你之間信任關係的中介。事實上，我有了其他東西，也就是這個加密區塊鏈帳本，非常類似於 TCP/IP 協定，這就是我能夠和你互動的方式。所以，這當中沒有中介者。And you had an ability for individuals to share content and, you know, platforms like YouTube and, you know, Twitter and many others now X. And ultimately that democratized the access, the availability of information, and created widespread dissemination. And the same thing is happening with money today, right? What's happening with money is that I no longer need a bank as an intermediary to govern the trust relationship between me and you. Actually, I have something else, this cryptographic blockchain ledger, you know, very similar to like TCP/IP protocol, which is the way in which I am able to interact with you. And so there's no intermediary.

9:10我可以直接在你和我之間進行轉帳，這是一件非常根本性的事情，因為這代表現在的存取權已經被徹底打開了。金錢不再被壟斷存取權所掌控。而當然，這和資訊還是不太一樣，因為金錢的進入門檻還是比較高。但我認為未來的方向非常明確：金錢已經不再是中央銀行是否批准我能否進行雙邊交易的問題，而是我們是否決定要這麼做、我們如何決定要這麼做，以及我們選擇在哪個平台上進行這件事。I can do a direct transfer between me and you, and that is such a fundamental thing because it means that now access has been fundamentally opened up. There is no more a monopoly access over money. And of course, it's not quite the same as information because there are more barriers to entry. But I think the path and direction of travel is very clear, that money is no longer about whether or not a central bank approves my ability to exchange in a bilateral arrangement, but whether or not we decide to do that, how we decide to do that, and which platform we decide to do it on.

9:41Zuba 團隊文化與成長動力

9:41我想把話題稍微拉回到 Zuba，我知道，我的意思是，我們現在經歷的成長速度真的令人難以置信。你們採取了哪些做法來確保團隊能夠持續高效運作？ Josiah：我認為，你知道，當我思考我們的使用者應得的是什麼時，我也會把這樣的標準放在我的團隊身上。所以我相信，我們的使用者應該得到超乎想像的成果。他們應該看到一個自己從未預料過的未來。那才是最令人震撼的體驗。而我們的團隊也是這樣。我們努力追求超乎常理的成果，也盡可能地快速推進。I think just bringing the conversation a little bit back to Zuba, I know, I mean, the sheer speed of growth that we're experiencing is mind-blowing. What are the practices that you've put in place to make sure you keep a high-performing team? Josiah: I think, you know, when I think about what our customer deserves, I think about that in my team. So I believe that our customer deserves unreasonable outcomes. They deserve to see a future that they would never have predicted. That's the most mind-blowing experiences. And our team is like that. We try to push for unreasonable results, and we try to move as fast as we can.

10:16今天，我從許多可靠的消息來源得知，我們是目前全球成長最快的支付新型銀行，而且是有史以來成長最快的。這讓我感到非常興奮，因為這一切都來自我們的團隊。我認為第二點是我們保持敏銳的能力。我們的使用者非常在意我們提供的服務，對吧？那種用心、那種專注。他們遇到問題時，我們會接起電話，不論是在凌晨兩點，他們有一筆交易需要處理，還是早上九點，他們等著要討論自己的問題，我們都會在那裡陪伴他們。And today I have it on good word from a number of people that we are the fastest growing payments neobank in the world today and in history ever. And that gives me real excitement, because that comes from the team. I think the second thing is about our ability to stay sharp. Our customer cares about the service that we provide them, right? The attentionality, the focus. They have a problem, we pick up the phone, we're there for them, whether it's 2 a.m. in the middle of the night when they've got a transaction that they need to process, or it's 9 a.m. in the very morning when they've waited in order to discuss their problem.

10:46我們能夠保持敏銳、注重細節，並且將這種精神傳遞給團隊，這讓我們能夠創造出驚人的成果。接著，我認為第三點是我們以對工作的執著而聞名。我認為這種執著同樣會傳遞給使用者。你知道，當一個商業人士或消費者，他們開始行動並決定「我想創辦一家公司」，或者他們決定「我想在我的社區開一家店」、「我想為他人提供服務」時，他們這麼做的目標是確保身邊的人能夠變得更好。這種健康的執著，你會看到他們自己過得好，他們的家人過得好，他們的社區過得好，他們的朋友過得好，等等。Our ability to stay sharp, attention to detail, and that transmitting to the team means that we drive incredible results. And then I think the third thing is us being known for our obsession. And I think that again translates to the customer. You know, when a business person or a consumer, when they enter that activity and decide, I want to start a company, or they decide, I want to open a shop in my local community, I want to provide service to others, they do so with the aim of making sure the people around them are better. And that healthy obsession, you see them doing well, their family doing well, their community doing well, their friends doing well, etc.

11:19這正是我們在 Zuba 想要做的事情。如果我們做得好，實際上代表我們的使用者也做得好，這也代表我們的產業做得好，代表我們的經濟做得好，代表生活水準提升。而這個使命遠比我們想像的還要偉大。這真的非常令人興奮。And that's the same thing that we want to do at Zuba, which is that if we do well, actually it means that our customer has done well, that means our industry has done well, that means our economy has done well, that means living standards have improved. And that mission is a much bigger mission than we can ever imagine. It's super exciting.

11:36總結與聯絡方式

11:36最後，我認為最重要的結論是，穩定幣現在越來越不像是單純的加密貨幣，而是更著重於基礎設施的建設。這是在於如何可靠且快速地移動資金，並且服務那些傳統金融管道仍然難以觸及的市場。如果你對這些內容有共鳴，非常歡迎你來和我們聊聊。請在會後來找Josiah或我，或者你也可以透過 sales@zuba.com 聯繫我們團隊，我們會在24小時內回覆你。Josiah，謝謝你，也謝謝大家今天的參與。To wrap up, I think the biggest takeaway is that stablecoin is, I think, becoming less about crypto, but more about building infrastructure. It's about moving money reliably, quickly, and serving in markets where traditional rails still struggle to serve. And if any of this has resonated with you, we'd love to chat. Please come find Josiah or me after the session. Or you can reach out to our team at sales at zuba.com, and we'll get back to you within 24 hours. Josiah, thank you, and thank you everyone for joining us.