Avalanche 如何讓機構資產真正上鏈？Ava Labs CBO John Nahas 深度解析

0:00Avalanche 代幣化願景與產業轉變

0:00大家好，我是 Dragonfly 的 Rob Hadick，今天很高興邀請到 Ava Labs 的首席商務長 John Nahas。Avalanche 這幾年在代幣化領域非常積極，尤其今年股權代幣化的市值暴增，現貨股權代幣的交易量也從 2.3 億美金飆升到超過 80 億美金。John，你怎麼看這一波產業熱潮？Avalanche 為什麼能成為最大受益者之一？I'm Rob Hadick, general partner at Dragonfly, as was mentioned. John Nahas, Ava Labs, Chief Business Officer. And, you know, really the guy who makes the wheels run. So we've been friends for a long time, so excited to be able to do this. Tokenization. Yep. Big focus of Avalanche. Obviously this year on the tokenization side, we've seen the market cap grow for equity tokenization tremendously. About 4 billion today, up over 300% on the year. Trading in spot equity tokens is up from 230 million to over 8 billion. It's growing exponentially. What changed this past year that has created that new excitement around the asset, and why has Avalanche been one of the biggest proponents and one of the biggest beneficiaries of that?

0:58讓我先回顧一下。其實這產業一直在不同敘事間輪動，從隱私、各種新應用到現在的代幣化。但我認為，代幣化才是這產業從一開始就該實現的承諾。Avalanche 七年前創立時的標語就是「要把全世界的資產都代幣化」，我們的架構也是為這個願景打造。現在看到市場和用戶終於開始擁抱代幣化，真的很欣慰。So let me take a step back real quick. You know, I think this industry has spent a lot of time cycling through narratives. We've been talking about privacy. We've been talking about a bunch of things. And the most recent meta has been tokenization. But tokenization is really the promise that this industry should be making and should be fulfilling from inception. And Avalanche was created with the tagline to tokenize the world's assets seven years ago. So we have been working towards that vision for seven years. Our architecture was built for that vision seven years ago. And it's nice to see, I think, the industry, the market, and just users in general finally come around to embrace tokenization.

1:38過去幾年我們看到很多代幣化的嘗試，但大多只是技術展示，沒有真正的應用或流通。現在隨著美國監管逐漸明朗，像 SEC、CFTC 都開始給出更明確的指引，讓真正想做代幣化的人有信心進場。我們過去幾年一直在和這些機構溝通，終於看到有實際需求和流通的代幣化產品出現，這才是真正的進展。I think we've seen different flavors of tokenization over the years that were like technological use cases that didn't really have distribution or really meaningful use cases. They were just doing tokenization for tokenization's sake. But I think with the new administration in the U.S., I think with growing clarity around compliance and rules, both through Genius, but now even with the failure of the Clarity Act, you're seeing the SEC step forward, you're seeing the CFTC step forward. So you're seeing more guidance that allows people who would be doing tokenization and would be doing it in the right way feel comfortable enough to step in. And these are the conversations that we've been having for three, two, one year to bring things to market that have that distribution, that have the real use case, and really have the promise of tokenization behind it.

2:27什麼才是正確的代幣化？

2:27你剛剛提到「正確的代幣化」，我想深入聊聊。其實現在市場上有很多種做法，像 Robinhood 是用衍生品或 swap 方式，還有一些是直接鏈上發行，或像 Hyperliquid 這種合成資產。你怎麼定義「正確」的代幣化？這會帶來什麼不同？So you said a thing there that I want to pull on a little bit, which you said doing tokenization the right way, right? So a lot of what we've talked about in tokenization, and we sort of kind of put it all together as like, oh, tokenization is one thing. But it's very clear that the way Robinhood is doing tokenization, which is sort of like writing a derivative or a swap against a U.S. broker-dealer, is very different than maybe primary issuance on-chain, which is very different than the way people are playing in tokenization on Hyperliquid, right, on the synthetic side. So what does the right way to do tokenization mean to you, and how are we creating a better system if we do it the right way?

3:05我覺得過去幾年，傳統發行方常常只是把資產包裝成代幣，想說加個 token 就會有加密圈的人買單，但其實沒人有興趣。加密圈的人則覺得只要把任何資產切碎、變成可交易的 token，大家就會想玩，結果像 St. Regis Hotel 這種沒人想要的資產也被 token 化，供給一堆但沒需求。以前很多都是為了做 POC 而 token 化，沒有真正的市場需求。I'll take a step back here too. I think what's happened for the past several years is you had traditional issuers saying, This is an asset that doesn't really do much, but if we put a token on it, the crypto people will buy it. They had no interest. And crypto people said, Well, if we take any asset and fractionalize it and make it tradable, everyone will want to trade it. So you had things like the St. Regis Hotel and all these, like, players that wanted to—Tokenize their contracts and things that had no demand, really, and just excessive supply, that there was no desire for these things. It was more everything was being tokenized for the sake of being a POC.

3:41現在我認為有兩種「正確」的代幣化方式：一種是像 Hyperliquid、Xstocks、Ondo 這類，讓大家可以對股權的漲跌方向下注；另一種則是像 Dinari、Securitize、Bullish 這些做鏈上原生發行，Dinari 甚至做到完全合規、可兌換、擁有完整權利的證券。其他則是合成資產或衍生品。重點是，現在市場上終於有用戶真正想要的兩種資產，而不是以前那種沒人要的「笨資產」。So to your point, I think now there's tokenization being done right in two ways. One, whether it's Hyperliquid with perps or even Xstocks or Ondo or all these other guys, they're allowing people to take directional bets. On the value of an equity, whether it goes up or down, right? You have Dinari and other players like Securitize and Bullish who are doing primary issuance. Dinari is doing a fully wrapped, compliant security that is fully redeemable with all the rights that come with it. All the others are synthetics and derivatives. So it's at this point, I think, the right way, whether—The user and the consumer wants just a directional bet, or they want the full rights and privileges of an equity, and that comes with it. And you are seeing that now start to happen. So you have two versions of the assets that I think users and the market really wants, whereas before you just had a plethora of these assets that were kind of, for lack of a better term, dumb assets.

4:36Avalanche 的架構優勢與全球落地

4:36回到 Avalanche，你們在代幣化市場非常活躍，最近和 Progmat 合作 20 億美金的資產上鏈，還有韓國、日本等地的大型資產管理機構選擇 Avalanche。為什麼這些機構會選 Avalanche，而不是其他鏈？So let's talk about Avalanche specifically. You guys have been one of the most active in the tokenization market. You've won a lot of big deals. I think you've been, you know, probably very thoughtful on a relative basis to everyone else over the last several years of where the market was going with tokenization. You recently announced a deal with Progmet for $2 billion of tokenized assets, and that's moving over from sort of a, like, enterprise DLT platform. You've announced a bunch of deals with large asset managers in Korea and Japan and other parts of Asia. Why are they choosing Avalanche specifically relative to, you know, any of the other chains they could?

5:12像日本 Progmat 有 28 億美金資產、韓國 Hanwha Securities，還有阿聯酋政府要把 1250 萬居民身份上鏈，他們都說：這只有 Avalanche 做得到。南韓監管機關甚至明文規定，只有兩條 Hyperledger 私有鏈和 Avalanche 可以做代幣化，Avalanche 是唯一的公鏈。這是因為我們七年前就預見，不同資產、不同法域、不同合規需求都需要自己的鏈和環境，不可能全部塞在同一條鏈上。Avalanche 允許每個政府、機構、企業打造專屬的鏈，滿足他們的商業、資產和合規需求。So when we talked to Programet in Japan with their $2.8 billion in assets, or you talk to Hanwha Securities in Korea, or you talk about the federal government of the UAE tokenizing 12.5 million resident and citizen identities on the UAE pass coming onto Avalanche, they all have the same common saying: it's only possible on Avalanche. So the South Korean regulator came out and said that you can only do tokenization on two hyperledger chains that are private permissioned and enterprise, or Avalanche. Avalanche is the only public network. Same with Progmat in Japan, and the same with the UAE. It happens on Avalanche because our architecture from seven years ago to tokenize the world's assets was built with the idea that these assets, these jurisdictions, separate compliance requests are going to need their own chain. They're going to need their own environment. They're not going to live alongside everything else that exists in the world. The world is not built that way, and for the idea that blockchains to take every application and every asset and every use case and fit it on an existing technology is backwards. We allow for any of these governments, institutions, or enterprises, FIFA included, to build a blockchain that services their business, their asset, their compliance needs, and their jurisdictions.

6:24每個國家、每個應用都需要自己的環境，Avalanche 支援打造專屬鏈，無論是私有、授權公有或完全開放公有鏈，都可以隨需求調整。其他鏈都是要你把資產丟到他們現有的技術上，我們則是給你工具，讓你自己打造最適合的產品和資產。這就是我們的彈性和客製化優勢。So what works in Japan doesn't work in Korea, doesn't work in the UAE, and doesn't work in the U.S. Each of these need their own environment, and Avalanche allows for purpose-built chains that are private permissioned or permissioned public or public permissionless in the crypto ethos, and also for that journey to emerge. What might start as private permission can grow into permissioned public and one day potentially public permissionless. Every other blockchain says, come put your asset, your use case on our technology the way it is. We build the technology. We give the technology to allow the company to build the best product and the best asset.

7:01L1 子網、C-Chain 與生態系協作

7:01所以關鍵字就是模組化和彈性。Avalanche 讓每個機構、AI 團隊、DeFi 團隊都能打造自己的 L1 子網，還能和 C-Chain 互通。這樣的架構有什麼好處？So is the key word there modularity and flexibility? Flexibility and customizability. Customizability. Okay. Well, how do you think for—For a lot of the, you know, L1s that Avalanche are building, you talked about it with all of these institutions are building them. You also have much more crypto-native use cases for some of these L1s. You have AI use cases that are building L1s. What is the benefit for all of them to have their own L1, but then there also to be the C-chain and for them to work together, and how do they work together?

7:30我對這種專屬鏈的成長很興奮，像 Tempo、Arc 等新鏈都在 Avalanche 上推出。但現實是工程師和資源有限，自己蓋鏈、維運成本很高。Avalanche 讓任何人都能依需求快速啟動自己的鏈，Ava Labs 也能協助。你可以自訂規則、Gas 代幣、治理方式，甚至不用 Gas。重點是我們給你完整的區塊鏈底層，所有錢包、RPC、API、交易所上架等基礎設施都能直接用。Absolutely. So, look, I am really excited about the growth of kind of—Purpose-built chains in general. So I'll take a step back on that. Like you're seeing this with Tempo and with Arc and with all these other chains that are launching. But there's only finite amounts of engineers, of resources to build. So this is the problem that people tend to do. Everyone wants to have a blockchain, but to build it, to launch it, and more importantly to maintain it is costly and requires engineers and a lot of overhead. Avalanche allows anybody to spin up a chain according to their own needs. We have service providers and even Ava Labs that can work with them to help them build that. The benefit is you have your own chain with your own rule set, with your own gas token, with your own governance token, with whatever it is that's best for your business, maybe even no gas. The benefit, though, there is we give you the blockchain. So all the integrations that you would do with as A blockchain developer, whether it be wallets and RPCs and APIs and exchange listings and everything else, comes with an Avalanche L1 because instead of going to a stablecoin issuer and saying, Please issue your stablecoin onto us, you can pull it from the C-Chain.

8:37C-Chain 是我們的公有 EVM 鏈，也是流動性樞紐。所有代幣化資產、穩定幣都能在這條鏈上上架，享有主要錢包、交易所、基礎設施支援，然後再轉移到自己的 L1 執行。你可以有一群只互通的私有鏈，從 C-Chain 拉流動性和穩定幣，也可以有 AI 鏈和其他鏈互通。最終目標是讓跨鏈資產轉移像桌面搬檔案一樣簡單。So the C-Chain is our public permissionless EVM. It is a liquidity hub. So for all tokenized assets and stablecoins and whatever it may be, they can get listed on that chain, have access to every major wallet, exchange, and infrastructure provider, but transfer easily to their own L1 and transact on there or execute on there. So you can have a grouping of private permissioned chains that only talk to each other, but that pull liquidity and stablecoins from the C chain. You can have an AI chain that talks to other chains. You can build the rule sets that you want by using liquidity across the entire ecosystem. The ultimate goal here is to be able to move assets between chains as easy as it is to move a file between folders on your desktop.

9:20Avalanche 與競爭者的差異與 DeFi 創新

9:20有些競爭者像 Canton 也強調機構級代幣化，Avalanche 跟他們比起來有什麼不同？你們和機構溝通時，他們最在意什麼？So, one of the, you know, someone who talks about this same topic, who sounds somewhat, you know, similar to you, and they talk about, like, why asset tokenization is happening and why to use their chain. is Canton, right? When you guys go up and you say, hey, we are—the reason you should do this on Avalanche is because we have all this flexibility, this modularity, this customizability, and we have, you know, this public or permissionless EVM chain as well. What is that conversation like with those institutions? Relative to the competitors, like how do, what do they compare? What are the things they point to? What are the ways in which they say this is what specifically Avalanche can do, even though others are talking about, you know, the same exact topics?

10:07市場上有像 Canton 這種很機構導向的，也有像 Ethereum 這種完全開放、去中心化的。Avalanche 則是兩者兼具，能做混合型。機構喜歡 Canton 那種可客製化的彈性，也喜歡 Ethereum 帶來的創新。我們有完整的 DeFi 生態，開發者不斷創新。其實我們一開始很專注機構，但真正讓我們被看見的是 2021 年 DeFi 爆發。DeFi 的創新逼著傳統金融跟進、學習、甚至採用這些新東西。So I think if you take a look at the market, you have Canton on the very institutional kind of set way, and then you have Ethereum on the other end that's very, you know, crypto ethos, public permissionless, and very open. The benefit that we have with Avalanche is we sit in the middle, and we can be a hybrid. When we talk to major institutions, they like the customizability that something like a Canton has, but they also like the innovation that exists in the crypto ethos, like on Ethereum. So we have a vibrant and robust DeFi ecosystem. We have developers and builders building new primitives and protocols. And to be honest with you, when we first started, we were very focused on institutions and enterprises. But what got us to the table was our DeFi growth back in 2021. And when we would talk to institutions, they would listen. But once we had that growth in DeFi, the innovation that crypto actually brings to financial markets, that DeFi innovation, that crypto-native innovation is what forces the incumbents to move forward. It forces them to adapt. To grow, to learn, and to actually take some of these things and use them.

11:09現在很多機構會主動來問我們：能不能有借貸協議（像 Aave）、自動做市商（像 Uniswap）？他們很想接觸加密原生的創新，同時又能在自己需要的合規框架下運作。So, you know, we talk to institutions that go, you know, we want to have a borrow-lend protocol. Can we talk to an Aave or an equivalent? We want to have an AMM. Can we talk to a Uniswap or an equivalent? So they are as eager to embrace the crypto-native side and crypto innovation that we have an ecosystem of builders to support, but also within the parameters that they need.

11:34代幣化落地進展與未來展望

11:34過去很多代幣化只是 POC，沒什麼實際上鏈應用。這次有什麼不同？有什麼數據或案例可以證明這波是真的？So there's probably, there's always been skeptics of tokenization. There's been a lot of kind of POCs that people have announced and that have kind of turned into very little actual on-chain usage. Why is this time different? And what are the, you know, metrics or the specific things you can point to that the audience can say, I see evidence of this happening now?

11:57以前找我們的都是創新部門，沒預算，只是 CEO 要求做個區塊鏈 POC，做完大家拍拍手就結束。現在找我們的是 CEO、CTO、CFO，他們有明確目標、時程、成果要交付，真的想把業務搬上鏈。這種對話的層級和深度完全不同，已經不是「要不要做」而是「什麼時候上線」。So I can tell you from where I sit, people used to come to us, and they used to be the innovation department. They had no budget, and they just had a mandate from the CEO of the board to do something with blockchain. And that meant a POC. They would do it, everyone gets happy, and they move on. First they would crawl, then they would walk, then they would run into things. Now we get reached out to by the office of the CEO, the office of the CTO, the office of the CFO. CFOs want to save money through operational efficiencies. CTOs want to build new things. CEOs want to transform their businesses. So the stakeholders that are coming to the table are different. They are dedicated. They no longer want to crawl. They want to walk or run first, and they want to go in. They come to us instead of with, How do we do this? or What should we do? with, This is what we want to do. This is the timetable. These are the deliverables. Can you help us get to market? So it's completely changed. I mean, the conversations, the level of the conversations, and the depth that they come in with an understanding is completely different.

12:58現在真的有數據可以看，像 FIFA 找我們合作，2022 世界盃二級票務有近 20% 都在 Avalanche 上完成。FIFA 先做收藏品平台，後來票務也上鏈，未來還會有更多應用。阿聯酋政府也把全國居民的數位身份搬上鏈，這些都是實際落地的例子。So it's not yet metric-driven, but it is. There are metrics too. I mean, FIFA came to us and wanting to do stuff, and we ended up powering nearly 20% of their secondary ticket sales for the World Cup. They came first with a collectibles platform. Then they ramped up into World Cup secondary tickets, and now they're going to continuously do more stuff. So you're seeing real stuff come on-chain. We did stuff with the California DMV years ago, and they announced that, and, you know, California bureaucracy aside, that never really grew as much. But now you have the federal government of the UAE saying we are putting a nationwide pass that every user, every inhabitant of the UAE uses on a blockchain, and how do we grow this?

13:39最後一題，除了股權代幣化，還有哪些資產類型你最期待未來幾年會大幅成長？Maybe one last question, and we're about running up on time, but if you look across. You know, we started talking about equities. There's obviously, like, money market funds were one of the first big pieces, first kind of big growers in tokenization, stablecoins before that. What pieces of, or what assets or what pieces of the economy are you most excited about growing over the next, you know, call it few years?

14:02我最看好股權代幣化。一般大眾對加密資產還是不太熟悉，但對股票很有感。未來所有股票都會上鏈，而且會需要很多條鏈來支援不同法域和需求。只要能讓大家用更好的體驗接觸股權代幣化，像借貸、創新應用，區塊鏈在後端支援，這才是最大 unlock。Tokenized equities for sure. I mean, that's what people are most, like, accustomed to, right? The general population. Still doesn't understand that much about crypto assets. They will become more educated about it, but explaining it to the average person is still difficult, right? Tokenized equities, I think, will eventually all live on chain. They're going to need many chains to do it. There's many jurisdictions and tons of uses and users. So tokenized equities are what people are mostly familiar with. Giving people a better experience and access to that where they can borrow and lend and do innovative things with it on a front end, with the blockchain just enabling it on the back end, I think is the master unlock.

14:47太棒了，謝謝 John，也謝謝 Rob，大家給他們掌聲！Awesome. Well, thank you, John. Thanks, Rob. Give him a round of applause.